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I know this is a simple question, but I need to confirm before I try doing this in our campaign.
If using a cleave as a standard action, can I trigger a cleaving finish during that round?
For instance:
1.Two goblins are standing next to each other. My fighter walks in, starts a cleave, kills the first goblin. Do I get one attack on the second goblin or two (one from the cleave triggering from the hit and one from cleaving finish)?
2.The same two goblins are high-fiving each other from being reincarnated. I see them and move in, cleaving. The first attack hits, triggering my cleave. I hit the second one, killing him. Can I use a cleaving finish attack on the first goblin?
3.A pile of goblins are added to this post, since someone keeps killing all the goblins stationed here. Each are adjacent to each other (in an empty box shape). I great cleave, triggering one attack after another, striking each. Since I've got huge strong fighter muscles, each hits. The great cleave kills every other one, letting me use improved cleaving finish to destroy the last ones.
I know this is a simple question, but I need to confirm before I try doing this in our campaign.
If using a cleave as a standard action, can I trigger a cleaving finish during that round?
For instance:
1.Two goblins are standing next to each other. My fighter walks in, starts a cleave, kills the first goblin. Do I get one attack on the second goblin or two (one from the cleave triggering from the hit and one from cleaving finish)?
2.The same two goblins are high-fiving each other from being reincarnated. I see them and move in, cleaving. The first attack hits, triggering my cleave. I hit the second one, killing him. Can I use a cleaving finish attack on the first goblin?
3.A pile of goblins are added to this post, since someone keeps killing all the goblins stationed here. Each are adjacent to each other (in an empty box shape). I great cleave, triggering one attack after another, striking each. Since I've got huge strong fighter muscles, each hits. The great cleave kills every other one, letting me use improved cleaving finish to destroy the last ones.
1. 2 attacks. Each feat has separate conditions, and you have met both (1st attack hit->Cleave is triggered. First hit reduces goblin A to 0 or fewer hp->Cleaving Finish is triggered.) Flavor-wise I would rule that your entire Cleave/Great Cleave action needs to be finished before you take any cleaving finish attacks, but that doesn't really affect the outcome.
2. Yes. The text of cleaving finish states that the feat only cares about you reducing an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee attack. It doesn't care that it was a cleave.
3. Correct. Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish do not care where the enemies you are attacking are as long as they are within range (In contrast to cleave and great cleave, which requires that the enemies also be adjacent to each other.)
If using a cleave as a standard action, can I trigger a cleaving finish during that round?
I don't see why not.
I great cleave, triggering one attack after another, striking each. Since I've got huge strong fighter muscles, each hits. The great cleave kills every other one, letting me use improved cleaving finish to destroy the last ones.
Nope.
Cleaving Finish: "You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat."
If using a cleave as a standard action, can I trigger a cleaving finish during that round?I don't see why not.
I great cleave, triggering one attack after another, striking each. Since I've got huge strong fighter muscles, each hits. The great cleave kills every other one, letting me use improved cleaving finish to destroy the last ones.Nope.
Cleaving Finish: "You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat."
Bolding mine. Improved Cleaving finish removes that restriction.
Sure, why not.
Although eventually you'll be Entangled due to all the dead goblins around you.
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I know this is a simple question, but I need to confirm before I try doing this in our campaign.
If using a cleave as a standard action, can I trigger a cleaving finish during that round?
For instance:
1.Two goblins are standing next to each other. My fighter walks in, starts a cleave, kills the first goblin. Do I get one attack on the second goblin or two (one from the cleave triggering from the hit and one from cleaving finish)?
2.The same two goblins are high-fiving each other from being reincarnated. I see them and move in, cleaving. The first attack hits, triggering my cleave. I hit the second one, killing him. Can I use a cleaving finish attack on the first goblin?
3.A pile of goblins are added to this post, since someone keeps killing all the goblins stationed here. Each are adjacent to each other (in an empty box shape). I great cleave, triggering one attack after another, striking each. Since I've got huge strong fighter muscles, each hits. The great cleave kills every other one, letting me use improved cleaving finish to destroy the last ones.
1. 2 attacks. Each feat has separate conditions, and you have met both (1st attack hit->Cleave is triggered. First hit reduces goblin A to 0 or fewer hp->Cleaving Finish is triggered.) Flavor-wise I would rule that your entire Cleave/Great Cleave action needs to be finished before you take any cleaving finish attacks, but that doesn't really affect the outcome.
2. Yes. The text of cleaving finish states that the feat only cares about you reducing an enemy to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee attack. It doesn't care that it was a cleave.
3. Correct. Cleaving Finish and Improved Cleaving Finish do not care where the enemies you are attacking are as long as they are within range (In contrast to cleave and great cleave, which requires that the enemies also be adjacent to each other.)
Thanks for the quick reply. Do you have any erratta/quotes that confirm that cleave and cleaving finish aren't connected in triggers? We've avoided trying this combo in my game for now, as we do for all new and unclear feats, but I'd be happy to start murdering mounted riders.
Thanks for the quick reply. Do you have any erratta/quotes that confirm that cleave and cleaving finish...
Ultimate Combat is still pretty new, errata doesn't get released until a new printing comes out. As for quotes, all I can do is refer you to the feats themselves. They specifically and clearly call for different triggers, so there is no reason to assume that one overwrites the other. For a 5 feat investment it's not overpowered at all, especially considering by the time you get this combo rolling the wizard/sorcerer has reached 3rd level spells, drastically increasing their AoE capabilities, and they don't have to hit every time to keep it going.
For fun times and to push the combo even further, take Lunge.
Seems perfectly legit. If you take that standard action to use regular cleave and somehow miss, the entirety of you shenanigans is ruined.
Seems perfectly legit. If you take that standard action to use regular cleave and somehow miss, the entirety of you shenanigans is ruined.
Sekret brings up a good point. No matter how high your Attack bonus is, you've got a 5% chance to nat 1 with every swing. If that occurs on the first hit you're pretty much stuck till next round.