|
So. Many. Changes.
I'm not sure I like that the domains went back to spells or not. I think in the end I will, as the Beta really didn't change that much. Some spells were still given, now more are. It's a little strange that abilities like Flame Bolt are now a per-day thing, instead of an at-will thing. Interesting.
I do kind of like the change to Channel Energy, it is definitely nice to be able to choose between the two (Healing/Damaging Undead and vice versa) as I had the occasional player complain that he wanted a negative energy cleric that didn't have to heal undead with his burst, like in 3.5.
Spell changes are interesting. Not sure how I feel on them yet.
Other thoughts?
Did the scimitar threat range decrease, or is that a typo?
[...]
- Speaking of changes. I hope they fixed Heroes' feast. The beta version sucked and the 3.x was too good. At least I hope it's a +4 sacred bonus now[...]
Unless then fixed the Bard som bardic music stack with heroes' feast :-)
Fire bolt a limited number of times per day - Good it's limitet. I did't like the beta when it was at will. But how often / day?
Once per day per level I assume.
Once per day per level I assume.
Or you could assume it's 3 times / day or 5 times / day or 8 times / day or something else.
Once per day per level I assume.Or you could assume it's 3 times / day or 5 times / day or 8 times / day or something else.
I believe that vagrant-poet is more on the correct assumption...
"Special Attacks channel positive energy (4d6, 4d6+8 vs. undead, DC 17, 4/day), fire bolt (+5 ranged touch, 1d6+4 fire, 8/day), nimbus of light (8 rounds/day)"
and she is 8th level...
EDIT: alternatively, it could be 3 + Wis bonus per day (she has +5 Wisdom)... yes, we still don't know exactly...
I don't like the implications for multiclassing in the new concentration rules. Before multiclassed casters could still increase their concentration score beyond their caster level. Basing it on Caster Level and not Character Level seems to do a real number on multiclassed casters. Both Caster/Caster and Caster/Martial
Tangent point: Well it looks like those of us who use Psionics are going to need to figure out how this impacts those options, now that Concentration as a skill is fully and truly gone. I guess Wild Talent will need to specify that it is a Character Level check using Con, as non-caster psionic characters still need to Focus and don't have Caster Levels.
I would go with caster level of 1. Sure it sucks but your not trained dont try it in combat
Not to make this just about adapting psionics but... Fighters can take Wild Talent, they have no Psionic class level. Also check the DCs for regaining a Focus, not very good. *edit* Perhaps 1/2 character level as that would typically be the limit for class without Concentration as a class skill back in 3.5.
Yeah I misread edited my post. Caster level would be 1 or 0 if ya want to limit 1 to full casters . But I would go with 1. your a dabbler not trained to use such a thing in combat so ya take your chances
[...]
EDIT: alternatively, it could be 3 + Wis bonus per day (she has +5 Wisdom)... yes, we still don't know exactly...
Yes. I hope it's not once per day. At lover levels you need it at higher levels you probably won't. So I hope it's 3 + Wis bonus per day.
But whatever. I love the new cleric I just hope:- it's clear how their ability work
- they fixed spells like heroes feast.
- the cure domain is back (I guess it will be good since sun and fire sure are)
Thanks Jason, James and the rest of you people. I will probably have to buy two rulebooks, one for each of my eyes.
|
Removal of ailments no longer automatic.
Ablity damage from poisons, negative levels with Restoration?, etc. Wands will require more charge use to succeed with the lower caster level. Triviality of conditions removed.
Clerics are still very useful, but not the super heal-pill they once were. This I like.
Now if druids could just get a little bit more of that kind of healing at their disposal so that clerics still aren't so necessary...
wonderful. simply wonderful.
Thanks Jason, and welcome to the mighty fireballing cleric! :D
-New concentration: VERY GOOD!
-New domains: EXCELLENT...I can't wait for details, but they seem both powerful and flavourful!
-Spell revisions: I simply hope you were able to complete the very good beta job.
-New turn undead and related feats: sweet! It allows a great degree of customization and it's very funny! I wonder how does it work with paladin one! :)
-Afflictions and Remove spells: finally!! :)
So... no more CODZILLA but a customizable, amusing and very charismatic cleric. Perfect, simply perfect.
I'll have to playtest this, but the DC for the caster power check does seem brutal. Well, I guess combat casting becomes a useful feat again.
And Chainmail is +6 now.
wow I had missed that cool
I'll have to playtest this, but the DC for the caster power check does seem brutal. Well, I guess combat casting becomes a useful feat again.
Exactly. A good bonus to concentration check is now useful and really welcome to casters, especially combat oriented ones... And the messy 1.5 meters step is no longer a win-win bet. Hoooray!
Really, I'm wondering how the hell jason could introduce so many good changes to this popular class. Good job!
Okay so, four iconics down. 9 weeks to go, the last wednsday being the 12th of august. We have 8 iconics left, so it will be one a week until the 5th of August, one final preview, and then boom the game is released!!!
I expect to see some CMD hints in Sajan, multiclassing and possible favored class with Seltyiel, etc.
I'll have to playtest this, but the DC for the caster power check does seem brutal. Well, I guess combat casting becomes a useful feat again.
Well, I would not say brutal... I would say 'not automatic'.
In Beta, casting a 9th-level spell at 17th level was automatic (DC 24 vs 17 Spellcraft ranks + 3 Class Skill bonus + too much Int Bonus - at least +4 to have 9th level spells to begin with) for Wizards and almost automatic for other, non-Int dependant casters.
In 3.x it was Con based, but the result was more or less the same (at worst, a -1 Con Wizard would have to roll a 6 or more - but I hardly believe that such a low Con Wizard would have reached 17th level on the first place without any Magic Item to give him more Con...)
Now, at least, a +7 Int Wizard (an average score for a 17th level one) would have a +24 vs DC 34 (15 + 9x2) without Feats... much, much more balanced (IMHO).
also seem chain mail slows down non fighter movment
|
Okay so, four iconics down. 9 weeks to go, the last wednsday being the 12th of august. We have 8 iconics left, so it will be one a week until the 5th of August, one final preview, and then boom the game is released!!!
I expect to see some CMD hints in Sajan, multiclassing and possible favored class with Seltyiel, etc.
In the final preview, we get a Half-dragon Flumph Commoner 6 / Blackguard 14.
In the final preview, we get a Half-dragon Flumph Commoner 6 / Blackguard 14.Okay so, four iconics down. 9 weeks to go, the last wednsday being the 12th of august. We have 8 iconics left, so it will be one a week until the 5th of August, one final preview, and then boom the game is released!!!
I expect to see some CMD hints in Sajan, multiclassing and possible favored class with Seltyiel, etc.
Your a vile , evil man
I'll have to playtest this, but the DC for the caster power check does seem brutal. Well, I guess combat casting becomes a useful feat again.Well, I would not say brutal... I would say 'not automatic'.
Agree :-)
|
|
In the final preview, we get a Half-dragon Flumph Commoner 6 / Blackguard 14.Okay so, four iconics down. 9 weeks to go, the last wednsday being the 12th of august. We have 8 iconics left, so it will be one a week until the 5th of August, one final preview, and then boom the game is released!!!
I expect to see some CMD hints in Sajan, multiclassing and possible favored class with Seltyiel, etc.
Or the little known 13th Iconic for the new Anti-Paladin base class.
Suddenly, the Disruptive Feat from the Beta Playtest (if confirmed in the final version) has become Hell on Earth, however...
"The DC to cast spells defensively increases by 4 for all enemies within your threatened area."
And it's a Fighter-only Feat !!!
|
|
Your a vile , evil manIn the final preview, we get a Half-dragon Flumph Commoner 6 / Blackguard 14.Okay so, four iconics down. 9 weeks to go, the last wednsday being the 12th of august. We have 8 iconics left, so it will be one a week until the 5th of August, one final preview, and then boom the game is released!!!
I expect to see some CMD hints in Sajan, multiclassing and possible favored class with Seltyiel, etc.
Plain vanilla garden variety vile or Book of Vile Darkness vile ?
Oh and here's to a prestige class iconic as the final one ... maybe assassin ! Would love that one !
also seem chain mail slows down non fighter movment
That's normal, medium armor does that. What I wonder is wether the cleric has been downgraded to medium armor proficiency (I hope so!).
I can't make any sense of chainmail having been bumped to 6 AC, what does that entail for the breastplate (and heavy armors for that matter)?
|
|
*sigh* myself... well i am pretty much dessilusioned... for myself the Cleric is the dealbreaker, just becuase its my favorite class... and noo i never play a CoDzilla, I like to play the cleric for how they feel...
*background behind channeling... well it pretty went to the ashtray and become nothing more than a mechanic... originally for what I read it was the pure energy of the good coming from you, the energy was amout to something... now you click the "on damage" or "on deffensive" button... i myself find it lame... but i understand many dm cried their clerics "were" to powerful...
in the same spirit... you need a feat now to scare the undead... but you don't make them any damage? WTF? ok i understand putting it independetly so many DM don't had to extend the encounter because the undeads had to run... but If you are actually making damage to them.. at least it would have been good to have the decency to make some damage... if its a strong undead that you want to make run.. they could pass the DC and you have then a wated channel eenergy because you are in a level where you would be beaten to dead (yes I know many DM like this scenarios) and the only option you had to live when out of the window in a quite useless way...
but I can acept that... no propblem its just a mechanic of on and off... what I can't really take... is: Domains
One of the MOST innovative changes on the Beta were the triad: Bloodlines, Schools & Domains...
now for what I saw Blodlines sayed mostly the same... I hope Wizard schools get more instead of lose something... then we get that Domains went to a back because people was bad converting the old domains to the new ones and complained about not hacing enough spells, due to the lack of Bonus Spells... so we have that Sorcerers and maybe wizard got a new innovative mechanics and clerics were deal the "old clothes" with just some changes to make the munchkings and hack & slashers happy... (yes, for those who say there is no CoDzilla anywhere I must ask... WHY THE HELL DOES A CLERY ACTUALLY NEEDS A DAMNED FIREBALL? <- spell that defines in many ways the lack of imagination and the onlyn thing MANY wizards find as a way to cast...)
the concentration rules are ok... actually check the math... most of the time you don't need that much on the dice... lets get real... the rules suppose that you push your attributes beyond 20 with magic ittems... if not check all the iconics presented, at least the spellcasters and remember the main attribute for both Seoni and Kyra... I bet the Wizard (yes I forgot his name) and Lynn would habe both 20 in int and 20 in Wis...
sincefor me the cleric is basically the dealbreaker... I believe a few spells as presented were made to suck (aka, nerfed... AGAIN)... (not remove curse, i like that deal), Domains I would keep using the once prescented on the Beta... and possibly I left possitive channeling also as it was on the Beta (either as player or DM)... I ask myself the same question a friend made to himself months ago...
why does I need really...Pathfinder RPG... if anyway I would be using information from other books (Beta & 3.5) to have the game I want to play?
Don't take me wrong, I am not bashing on Paizo... but I definitively lost a lot of hope on the final product... I LOVE Golarion... but that doesn't mean I would be playing th Pathfinder RPG rules... for similar reasons now that I won't be playing 4E... the spirit and bolt steps admired on the hard decisions made from Jason and the rest of the Paizo staff, now felt as if they chicken out to have a number of complainers happy.. well such is the way of bussines I suppose...
and yes... this is both a complain and a rant :P
not a threat...
but definitively thinking that PF RPG is not the game I would enjoy playing...
And Chainmail is +6 now.
Could be a typo. If not Breastplae is probably +6 also. Medium armor will now be interesting if you are a Ranger.
but I can acept that... no propblem its just a mechanic of on and off... what I can't really take... is: DomainsOne of the MOST innovative changes on the Beta were the triad: Bloodlines, Schools & Domains...
Well you cast your domain spells using wisdom. Take the domain good from the beta as an example. Holy smite at lvl 12? Using charsima (SP and SU use charisma) the DC will suck and a 4:th level spell at lvl 12 isn't that good. IMHO
|
|
but I can acept that... no propblem its just a mechanic of on and off... what I can't really take... is: DomainsOne of the MOST innovative changes on the Beta were the triad: Bloodlines, Schools & Domains...
Well now you cast using wisdom.
Take the domain good from the beta as an example. Holy smite at lvl 12? Using charsima (SP and SU use charisma) the DC will suck and a 4:th level spell at lvl 12 isn't that good. IMHO
i would have preferred them corrected than just going the lazy way, actually returning just with a few changes to make the list a bit better...
the concept of the bonus spell has never been atractive to me... but the idea of having a cool power to use... does...
example.: produce flame form the Sun domain, for small bonus that it had been has saved my cleric more times that I can count, and she is now level 9... the idea of having it as a blessing of her goddess was interesting.... now we go back to "ok use your holy item and cast it"
for Me its not about the power itselves, but the concept
|
|
I think I like the new take on domains: one special ability and the rest is bonus spells.
Fire domain cleric casing a fireball is just so sweet, because there are things you expect from clerics, and casting balls of flame isn't one of them. +1 to surprise factor !
However, it's the concentration change that does it for me. This + step up feats + disruptive = hooo boy.
Montalve, you still have cool and useful domain powers, but you also have bonus spells. :) your beloved cleric is maybe no more codzilla but it's the most attractive ever!
The beta mechanic of domains and schools was great, but these two class features were too similar to each other for my guts. Waiting for arcane school rules, this solution is really lovely, both for players and for backward compatibility.
Well you cast your domain spells using wisdom. Take the domain good from the beta as an example. Holy smite at lvl 12? Using charsima (SP and SU use charisma) the DC will suck and a 4:th level spell at lvl 12 isn't that good. IMHO
but I can acept that... no propblem its just a mechanic of on and off... what I can't really take... is: DomainsOne of the MOST innovative changes on the Beta were the triad: Bloodlines, Schools & Domains...
Well, I personally like the changes I've seen so far.
But to correct your example, even in Beta the Holy Smite at level 12 used Wisdom and not Charisma; the (Sp) was a leftover from the Alpha version, and the text said:
"In addition, each domain grants a number of bonus spells. These spells are prepared along with the cleric’s other spells for the day."
The Charisma entry ("The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier.") was referred to the abilites gained at 1st and 8th level only ("Domains grant one ability at 1st level and a second ability at 8th level, as noted in their description.")
Now, the only thing that really bothers me is that the huge work that both Set and myself did during the Playtest here has to be done again... sigh !...
|
|
Montalve, you still have cool and useful domain powers, but you also have bonus spells. :) your beloved cleric is maybe no more codzilla but it's the most attractive ever!
The beta mechanic of domains and schools was great, but these two class features were too similar to each other for my guts. Waiting for arcane school rules, this solution is really lovely, both for players and for backward compatibility.
i disagree... and again I play the cleric not for the CoDzilla factor, but for the cool concept I garnered since I met it... aka templars, hospitalers, teutons... etc
going back to 1 fomain power in 1st level and bonus spells...
nerf (again) of cleric spells...
nerf of the concept of energy channeling
nerf of turn undead
and still 2 skills points per level? (and its true that they reduced the bard's skill points?) <-ok this was needlesly, but If i was to rant about the cleric, i would rant about the full issues I had...
but more importantly diluting the roll and concept of the cleric (this is how i see it... sorry)
so its ok for the wizards to have cool mechanics, but Clerics should use what left overs of the old editions were left? just to have Wizards fans happy, who surely would get more spells nerfed too?
for the sake of completation, since I have ben follwing this since Alpha 2 I might buy he PDF in september... but definitively... I will cancel this pre-order
again.. a shame... I had all my hopes in this product :S
well at least Sean keeps writing about gods and Wes hopefully about Ustakav... so there are products for me within paizo in the future...
|
|
The nerfs had to happen. You might be a climatic cleric player who is after the coolness and fluff, but there are dozens of people out there doing a loud "sigh" whenever a 3.5 cleric casts Divine Power, Righetous Might, burns his turning attempts for some sweet Divine Metamagic and goes on to make all other players want to re-roll CoD.
OTOH, the domains were really a pain in the backwards compatibility department. Schools and bloodlines are a new mechanic, so you can pretty much run wild without having to worry about the previous material, but the Beta domains required way too much work.
Also, with all the zillion spells available I really don't see how PFRPG cleric is less "clerical" than beta one.
[...]even in Beta the Holy Smite at level 12 used Wisdom and not Charisma; the (Sp) was a leftover from the Alpha version, and the text said:
"In addition, each domain grants a number of bonus spells. These spells are prepared along with the cleric’s other spells for the day."
The Charisma entry ("The cleric’s (or druid’s) level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell’s level + the caster’s Charisma modifier.") was referred to the abilites gained at 1st and 8th level only ("Domains grant one ability at 1st level and a second ability at 8th level, as noted in their description.")
There never saw an errata on that as far as I know. The concept of bonus spells might just as well been a leftover from a draft made between the alfa and the beta that they scraped. In the Beta the bonus spells are listed as SP not as spells. Either way, I too like the new cleric.
and still 2 skills points per level? (and its true that they reduced the bard's skill points?) <-ok this was needlesly, but If i was to rant about the cleric, i would rant about the full issues I had...
On this point I agree. All (or at least most) classes need more skill points. It is just too difficult to make a character with an interesting background with just two or three skill points. :)
(Remember, Rogues don't have as many as it looks once you take out the "required" skills for their character role.)
But this is not a new problem with 3.P, so it is hardly a "deal breaker" for me.
so its ok for the wizards to have cool mechanics, but Clerics should use what left overs of the old editions were left? just to have Wizards fans happy, who surely would get more spells nerfed too?
Actually, as the player of a "Universalist Wizard" there is one school I do hope gets nerfed - and nerfed hard - the Universal School. Right now (under the Beta rules), taking a School Specialization is just silly. :(
|
|
Also, with all the zillion spells available I really don't see how PFRPG cleric is less "clerical" than beta one.
different perspectives...
i look concept more than mechanics... that is why I bought White Wolf Books and I do buy Golarion books...
I like stories and concepts more than mechanics...
but when the mechanics do not avail the concet or flavor being offered... well ...
and its not that with the OLD domains the cleric is less cleric than the one in the Beta... but it was more interesting to see actually blessing instead of spells
and anyway I already used the BoXM and the 3.0 DnD PH to play with the Beta... adding the PFRPG that I might not use anyway since i am not liking some of the changes (the once important for me) from Beta to Final version... well there is not much to do about it...
and again tis not like I cild threaten them... the book is being printed... what is done is done.. I don't like it :P
if others do... cool :)
I am the last form my gaming group and other forums checking here consantly... because they were dessilussioned earlier... i am the optimistic of our group...
but again.. for me the deal breaker is the Cleric... if I find I will have fun playing it, I know its worth a shot to try it... that is why I will never go into 4E, their cleric sickens me (IMHO)
Actually, as the player of a "Universalist Wizard" there is one school I do hope gets nerfed - and nerfed hard - the Universal School. Right now (under the Beta rules), taking a School Specialization is just silly. :(
Be assured, you are not alone on this. I'm one of those who didn't like the add of Bonus spells to Universalists, for example...
|
|
On this point I agree. All (or at least most) classes need more skill points. It is just too difficult to make a character with an interesting background with just two or three skill points. :)
agreed
Actually, as the player of a "Universalist Wizard" there is one school I do hope gets nerfed - and nerfed hard - the Universal School. Right now (under the Beta rules), taking a School Specialization is just silly. :(
well but because you want more options for the other schools, not just to get them back to the old format...
Be assured, you are not alone on this. I'm one of those who didn't like the add of Bonus spells to Universalists, for example...Actually, as the player of a "Universalist Wizard" there is one school I do hope gets nerfed - and nerfed hard - the Universal School. Right now (under the Beta rules), taking a School Specialization is just silly. :(
Yes let’s hope they nerf it good. And hope they boost the Bard :-)
Next week the Paladin. Can't wait. Drool, drool, drool.Since I by mistake seem to have deleted my first post I’ll try to recreate it.
- Domain spells are back. LOVE IT!!!!!
- The light spells got an overhaul – good
- Casting on the defensive: Love it! Now you get to use your main casting attribute and multiclassing suffers. Fighter/clerics and others get to pay. LOVE IT!!!!
- Spell revisions. Good.
- Speaking of changes. I hope they fixed Heroes' feast. The beta version sucked and the 3.x was too good. At least I hope it's a +4 sacred bonus now. Also hope there is a spell that protect against ray of Enfeeblement (deathward didn’t in the Beta)
- Channel Energy. Good. Either heal living or harm undead, but I don’t turn undead feat doesn’t deal damage.
- Flame Bolt a per-day thing – Good. I didn’t like the Beta at will thing. It was too good.
- Worries: nimbus of light and other abilities at 8th level. Are it now clear how the work? Using a standard action to activate? If the rounds, as in the beta, don’t have be consecutive why waste a standard action to activate something for one round? Or can you activate it and then end the ability as a free action?
- Domain spells are back. Love it !!!