How would Putrify Food and Drink interact with the rum ration?
It can destroy magical potions. I don't know how it would effect drugs or poisons though.
How would Putrify Food and Drink interact with the rum ration?
It can destroy magical potions. I don't know how it would effect drugs or poisons though.
I would say you lose the positive effect but maintain the negative, should you still try to drink it.
Aid another is cheesy in my eyes because with Take 10, it's basically an automatic +2 to all your skills. Thats a couple feat's worth, or 2 levels worth of skills.
Hence as I said. If you and Baltzar feel that its just a normal class feature and we should automatically get +2 on all skills for having a familiar, I'll tag along, but I'm not starting that trend.
Also, both Baltzar and me also get Alertness, so both of us would end up with +4 perception and +4 sense motive(both potentially +6 starting 10th level), 2 skills used quite often.
The relevant factors to aiding another are being adjacent to the target, making the skill check, and being adjacent to the master? Assistants? Not finding the right word here but it becomes a crowding issue. Not to mention, multiple hands in the pot sounds distracting to me, so no taking 10 in the traditional sense, but it's not impossible to net a +10 bonus. Aid another's also become very situational. In an all black room for example, low-light vision doesn't help aid another to perception checks. Point is, there are always limits.
Well, thats the point. Because one could always say the Familiar still listens, even if it's all black, sight is not the only perception. And on theoretical tasks, it's even simpler. Knowledge Checks? Simple to do. Sensing another persons motives? Also easy and empathic link means direct transmission. It's all in how you describe what's happening, and a somewhat creative player WILL find a way for the familiar to assist.
In most of my home games, both player and GM, we did away with that because it became silly, really. In the end, Skill Monkeys ended up getting an Familiar while the casters didn't really care about them.
But when in rome, do as the romans :) If it gets silly, you cut it back, but fine, then I'll partake in the bountiful source of +2's that is a familiar in the future.
@Sandman, you changed your evening and night actions? Or forgot you already posted some? :D
I tend to allow players to use anything that they can think of, but then again, the opposite holds true. Rules aren't one way roads. Yes, knowledge and perceptions, sense motives, and a few others can mean that the player gets the occasional +2 bonus, which rarely is game breaking. Sometimes it can be, but usually it's not. But the same character really can't complain when an explosion in the lab also incinerates the familiar who's been helping decipher the the ancient scroll of extra-blowy-up-ness.
Keep in mind that while it has your skill ranks it has it's own attribute modifiers.
In the realm of knowledges and other intelligence based skills, that makes Familiars fairly unlikely to make a DC 10 check until 3rd or 4th level, at which point the +2 bonus doesn't mean as much as it does at 1st.
For Wisdom based skills, there's a good chance the familiar will actually be better at the skill than the master is, which makes sense to me considering most animals are far more intuitive than people are. Of course the cat knows when someone is acting shady. It's a cat.
oh well, that was a completely wasted evening. Just to let you guys know too: It seems usually it's no use trying to befriend the same person more than once.
Guess it's all about superficial friendships on pirate ships ;)
regarding the +2 not being worth it later...I considered picking up breadth of experience if my FAQ-request gets through, and bardic knowledge also adds half my level to all knowledges...So getting another +2 from aid on top definitely would be nice. ^_^
I don't think it is as good as it seems at first glance.
Your familiar has your skill ranks (1), and I'm pretty sure it gets you class skill bonus (need to look into this, for now we will call it a +3). It has a 6 intelligence (-2), and does not get your trait or special ability bonuses.
So for knowledges, it has a max knowledge check of +2.
That gives it only a 60% chance to be able to make the DC check required to Aid Another, if it is close by at the time you need to make the check.
That's pretty good, but certainly not great. If there was a trait that gave that ability, I would probably skip it.
The point is more that there's plenty feats that give you +2 on 2 skills(which you can't even pick. Bad luck if you only wanted one of them, then it's skill focus for +3 on one).
On Level 10, they improve to +4(+6 if skill focus).
Now lets look at the familiar: It potentially gives you +2 on all the skills you WANT to use, via aid another. And at various levels before 10, depending on its attribute modifiers, it all but guarantees +2 on most of those skills. With skills you did a minimum investment in to the get class skill bonus? Still a pretty great chance to boost it by another +2, so for one skill rank you may get a +5 on that skill plus your other modifiers.
Traits normally only give +1 or +2 as a trait bonus, to 1 or 2 skills respectively. So if I had a trait that guarantees I get +2 on all skills by Level 10 with a chance for a plus 2 on any skill I use, at will, until then? Definitely would pick it up.
Also, if you mention intelligence, don't forget familiar becomes more intelligent too, so as skill ranks increase, his int penalty will decrease(eventually turning into a bonus). Definitely an investment in the future...
But we are arguing the wrong points all along here. Funny that, really. I am saying it's very powerful and thats why I don't want to use it. You say it's weak and thats why you want to use it. We should switch it around and argue for the others position :) "Meh, it's weak, i don't want it" and "It's stupidly powerful, me wants!" would fit much better ;) Either way, a moot point as GM already made his call. But it's fun talking about it, hard to transmit intent by writing but not arguing for arguments sake, just enjoying an exchange of views.
I agree that Familiar is more powerful than a feat. It is supposed to be. It is a defining class feature. The Witch pretty much doesn't function without it.
Looking at the eldritch heritage feat tree, we can see that mechanically, Paizo considers having a familiar to be worth two feats. That's what it takes to get one if you don't get one as a class feature.
For two feats, I'd say the familiar's ability to scout, aid another, take actions and grant alertness when it is close is pretty well balanced.
Looking at other class-defining class features of a similar vein, like a druid's animal companion, a summoner's eidolon, or a paladin's mount, I'd say the familiar is right about where it is supposed to be.
I think people have gotten so used to the idea that familiars are things to be protected and hidden that their true potential gets overlooked by a lot of players.
Baltzar's monkey can apply potions and oils to her. It can also pick locks and steal things with a reasonable success rate. If she sinks a few points into Use Magic Device, eventually the monkey will be able to use wands for her.
Familiars are quite powerful, and I think they are intended to be. I think the aid another thing is a useful ability, but is relatively minor in comparison to all the other awesome stuff familiars can do.
Thats the thing. They already have SO many things they can do. Plus the 2-feat investment is partially reimbursed by getting "Alertness" for free, unless you take an Archetype that replaces it(but yours gets permanent minor magical effects as payoff), and the "Skill Focus" for the Heritage also being a Feat by itself that may well boost a skill you want anyway.(since for Arcane its any knowledge).
Note that per definition getting a familiar you end up with 2 Feats giving +2/+2/+3 to skills, later +4/+4/+6, so you already have a nice setup for being even more skilled with aid another)
As you said, depending on their nature, they can also make superb scouts(who suspects a house cat?), take actions(I can carry wands, because I have opposable thumbs), and improve action economy aside from fancy extras like scrying on it.
As said, I've seen Skillmonkeys get crazy with it. And trust me, aid another was not "minor" there. At least not if you run the DC's as intended.
But alas, we will see, as it's obviously in.
Just a note, familiars have their own class skills and only share your RANKS (if their own isn't better, like for example Romello here has a rank in Disable Device, hence he gets 1 + 3 class + 2 Dex and
if I put 20 ranks in Sleight of Hand on Baltzar then she rolls 20+HerDex whereas Romello would roll 20+3class+HisDex+6SkillFocus+10pilfererbonus
Sorry I was scarce yesterday; anniversary!
I'm back now.
Sorry I was scarce yesterday; anniversary!
I'm back now.
Oh, Happy Belated Anniversary!
As mild levels yes. It will heal on its own with rest. Should the addiction increase beyond mild, the damage will not heal on it's own.
As mild levels yes. It will heal on its own with rest. Should the addiction increase beyond mild, the damage will not heal on it's own.
Okay, yeah always thought the alcohol rules they came up with were a bit odd... less than 10 shots to KILL the average person (assuming you are not going to roll a 1 for your con damage every drink) and pretty much guaranteed to become a hardcore alcoholic in one night of drinking. Or, apparently I know petite girls with 25+ Con who always roll natural 20's haha.
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Yep. Your average drinking game would lead to a lot of vancancies in the dorms...
While you may argue that this "rum ration" could be as much as half a litre of high-powered spirit-it's way more lethal than it would seem to be.
by its very definition you take at least 1 con damage every time you drink. So even if you never get addicted, just by drinking your rum every day, you WILL die. Probably within 2 weeks.(you always only heal one point overnight that you take anyway from drinking. So any 2's and 3's you roll, the extra 1 or 2 Con damage stick with you until you die)
I've known people happily drinking a bottle of vodka basically every day for a full semester...they are still alive ;)
It's cruel, but alas, we have Rhemus to help out with purify.
If we want to safe the other crew members from certain death by alcohol ration, we could also try and putrefy the source...that could also put some strain on the leadership since pirates will not be as calm and sleepy without stuff to fuel their addiction.
I am under the impression that they are spiking it, and that it is a lot more than a shot.
The poison makes people fatigued and addicted. That makes people go straight to bed (so they don't cause problems) and gives them leverage for keeping people in line. If they don't give out the ration for a few days, most people on board will play nice to get it.
Also, people with con damage are easier to deal with in the even of a mutiny.
As far as evil schemes go, it's pretty clever really.
Yes, that is why I planned it myself . . .
Darn Pirates beat me to it.
Maybe you could use the rum as a base to develop a counter agent?
Then, if we make good friends with Fishguts we could introduce it to the source, or add a few drops to the jug every night. Then we could get the crew back to healthy. They'd probably appreciate that.
Also, Rhemus and Baltzar could start spreading word/starting rumer that the rum is drugged. That seems like it would be good leverage to turn people against the officers.
Well, maybe this specific one is spiked, but it's still using the normal rules from pathfinder.
Which states that 3-4 doses of opium will be lethal to your average human.
They are pretty extreme with the effects drugs and addiction have.
Not complaining, just stating.
Yeah. I saw some discussions of how the drug rules work on the boards. They seem to be unrealisticly leathal.
In fact, there was discussion of the fact that poisoners should use drugs instead.
The save for drugs is against addiction [i]not[/] effect. That con damage happens no matter what. Also, drugs are cheaper and there's no chance of the poisoner accidentally poisoning themselves with a drug.
A rogue or alchemist with a few syringe spears full of any injected drug is incredibly lethal. The worst part is, even if someone survives the forced overdose, they're probably addicted.
yep. thats exactly what I mean. Drugs are more potent than poison in the rules as written.
It's also why at first I omitted my Con Damage roll, and only added it after reading up on them.
I figured it's impossible that one would take Con Damage every time one partakes of the drug, with no Save.
Because normally, it's in the interest of whoever produces drugs, or drugs people to make them addicted and compliant, that the consumers of the drug stay alive, and consuming.
I think nasty withdrawal symptoms are fine, but the inmediate damage on consumption? Thats beyond all reasonability. If drugs were as lethal as here, there would be no market for them. Everybody who tries, dies.
Pretty much. Seems like the two mechanics should really be flipped.
Yeah, hell I'd be dead many times over, considering that I sometimes do 'shot night' with some online friends (one of which is one of the petite girls I mentioned above) and I'll drink an entire pint of 94 proof rum. This rum ration is probably more like 40 proof if that. I know for a fact I don't have a 25 Con. 10 would I think be generous.
I think the penalties and numbers also reflect a time period of 100's of years ago when things were made with a lot less concern and health in mind. People didn't go out pub crawling and didn't buy beer in cases. I lot of pirates died at sea anyway so I'm sure that some of those had alcohol as a contributing factor. Anyway, I think it goes without saying, but Alcohol is bad, mkay.
I think the mechanics would need to be reworked.
Such as, the drug does 1d3 Con Damage, fine. And the Addiction Save is Fortitude 5.
You never take Con Damage, until you FAIL an addiction Save. Then you are addicted(minor addiction), the Fortitude is 1 harder, and you take Con Damage once.
Every time afterwards, you STILL have to make a Fortitude Save against your addiction, and if you fail, you get the Con Damage, and future Fortitude Saves are 1 harder.
If Fortitude Saves get 5 higher than what you started with, your addiction level increases, same if it becomes 10 higher than what you started with, and 15 or 20 higher(meaning "minor addiction-light addiction-moderate addiction-strong addiction-severe addiction")
That way, you can easily partake in vast amounts of a drug, may not get addicted at all, and even if you do, its not very dangerous. But as you use it more and more to supply your addiction, it begins to take a toll on you, eventually making it very difficult to resist it's harmful effects while at the same time introducing very heavy penalties for withdrawal(from the increased addiction level).
And the fact the furter along the track you are, the more damaging it becomes and the faster your addiction develops represents the fact that you have to use larger and larger doses to experience the same result as your body develops a resistance against the desired effect.
That is how Drugs, in my eyes, should work. But alas, I believe this one is here for game balance reasons and to add some interesting Stealth-Checks :)
As for the history of our rum rations(interesting to know, so sharing, feel free to ignore):
Following England's conquest of Jamaica in 1655, a half pint or "2 gills" of rum gradually replaced beer and brandy as the drink of choice. Given to the sailor straight, this caused additional problems, as some sailors saved the rum rations for several days to drink all at once. Due to the subsequent illness and disciplinary problems, the rum was mixed with water. This both diluted its effects and accelerated its spoilage, preventing hoarding of the allowance. A half pint (half of 473 ml; current American measurement; the larger British "Imperial" pint was not introduced until 1824[dubious – discuss]) of rum mixed with one quart (946 ml) of water and issued in two servings, before noon and after the end of the working day, became part of the official regulations of the Royal Navy in 1756 and lasted for more than two centuries. This gives a ratio of 4:1 (water:rum).
Citrus juice (usually lime or lemon juice) was added to the recipe to cut down on the water's foulness. Although they did not know the reason at the time, Admiral Edward Vernon's sailors were healthier than the rest of the navy, due to the daily doses of vitamin C that prevented disease (mainly scurvy).[2] This custom, in time, got the British the nickname limeys for the limes they consumed.
Royal Navy grog ration
The name "grog" probably came from the nickname of Admiral Vernon, who was known as "Old Grog" because he wore a grogram cloak. American Dialect Society member Stephen Goranson has shown that the term was in use by 1749, when Vernon was still alive.[3]
"While a character is benefiting from the effects of the drug he is addicted to, he does not suffer the penalties of his addition. While he still receives the benefits of the drug(s) and takes ability damage as normal, the disease effects are mitigated."
"Alcohol can be used and have significant negative effects. In general, a character can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double his Constitution modifier before being sickened for 1 hour equal to the number of drinks above this maximum."
Basically, as long as you continue to drink, you don't notice the negative side effects. It isn't until you stop that things become problematical. The rum rations only have a DC 5 fortitude save.
This is why the pirates demand rum rations are consumed, to help keep everyone weakened, and in line. It is not the best motivational strategy, and one that will fail quickly. It's also not a very hard DC (10 Stealth) to hide the fact that you're not drinking it. However, the penalty for not drinking it or getting caught not drinking it are severe, 6 whip lashes the first time, 6 cat-o'-nine-tail lashes the next. They want you drinking it for a reason. They are pirates, not nice people.
You were also given fair warning in the start of this campaign that this is an unorthodox group, and I would not be pulling punches. I have no doubt that you can work around or through this, but I'm not going to be changing the rules for the consumption of the rum rations.
Ah...you got it wrong, GM. I was not petitioning a change of the rum rules for this campaign. I believe we were talking about how pathfinder handles drugs in general. Because that IS problematic, when a Drug is a more powerful poison than...poison :)
I know I for one was thinking about the Mechanics looking at the WHOLE concept, also used Opium as example earlier. It was just amusing that we would be running a ghost ship, inevitably, if everybody drinks their rum ration for a month straight ^_^
As said, I believe the rum ration is here for game balance reasons and interesting stealth checks. I see absolutely no need to change them HERE since we have several ways to handle it. No need to pull punches or change something, sorry if it came across that way, but playing an "addicted" character in a normal campaign? Some drug-using dwarfen investigator who used to work with the guard and is a freelancer now? Forget it. Drugs as written make it unplayable...despite his racial bonus against poisons and high constitution...because the damage from drugs bypasses both by not even allowing a save.
So, I won't notice I am dead as long as I continue to drink? I'm sorry, the fact that you ALWAYS take the Con damage no matter what is the real problem.
Basically, not saying you need to be pulling punches, just that by the rules it's either don't drink it and risk the lash... or die. Also gotta wonder when the NPCs will start dropping off like flies in winter.
Plus the other rules for drinking don't make sense with the drugs rules... I can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double my constitution modifier before being sickened? So, then do I get sick from one drink since my Con is 10, or is it the 2nd that makes me sick?
As for not changing the rules, well we have two ways to handle it as I see it..
Make our Stealth checks to throw away the rum without drinking it (which also requires me to ignore the fact that as a faithful of Besmara that is against my religion to pour out the rum)... or we die.
I mean, I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really don't see how Pathfinder's alcohol rules make any rational sense as written. I never have.
@Baltzar
GM quoted the normal alcohol rules of the drug section.
The Rum we have to drink is a special kind of Drug that is not covered by alcohol as general so it's not applicable really.
It still makes no sense, but in addition to the other options, as said, Rhemus has Purify Food and Drink and can remove the spiked part of the drink.
We can, of course, also try and find the rum source in a night action, then spend a couple minutes putrefying it and making the crew depend on Create Water to have something to drink.
Really, we DO have options...
@Baltzar
GM quoted the normal alcohol rules of the drug section.
The Rum we have to drink is a special kind of Drug that is not covered by alcohol as general so it's not applicable really.
It still makes no sense, but in addition to the other options, as said, Rhemus has Purify Food and Drink and can remove the spiked part of the drink.
We can, of course, also try and find the rum source in a night action, then spend a couple minutes putrefying it and making the crew depend on Create Water to have something to drink.
Really, we DO have options...
It's not spiked, it's just rum (apparently Kraken mixed with Everclear) The two other examples of alcohol that I know of with full entries are Dwarven Fire Ale and Elven Absinthe both of which are actually more deadly than this rum (the ale due to a higher addiction level, the absinthe due to a higher con damage and higher addiction level)
This rum is tame in comparison, actually.
I think I'm just going to explain it away as "the rum is spiked with something." It makes sense mechanically, and in context.
Occam's Razor: RPG edition.
all fine baltzar, but there is a generic example for alcohol in the list, too.
Right there
The important part is in the first sentence...Just like drugs, alcohol can be...
which means generic alcohol is NOT seen as a drug.
Thus, every kind of alcohol that IS a drug has to be courtesy of some more severe effect.
Another listing is here:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Alcoholic_beverages
And it has neither the Elven nor the Dwarven Drug-Variant.
So yeah, I would guess just like them, this "Rum" is not a regular alcoholic beverage, but rather a concoction of the ship's mage who may or may not have overheared Rillum's plan.
all fine baltzar, but there is a generic example for alcohol in the list, too.
Right thereThe important part is in the first sentence...Just like drugs, alcohol can be...
which means generic alcohol is NOT seen as a drug.
Thus, every kind of alcohol that IS a drug has to be courtesy of some more severe effect.
Another listing is here:
http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Alcoholic_beveragesAnd it has neither the Elven nor the Dwarven Drug-Variant.
So yeah, I would guess just like them, this "Rum" is not a regular alcoholic beverage, but rather a concoction of the ship's mage who may or may not have overheared Rillum's plan.
That's just a listing of all the alcohols and their descriptions, doesn't mean that the actual books sourced do or do not give full rules (or that they do), as the Pathfinderwiki is not a rules source.
Again, I'm not trying to be difficult, I just am having trouble because throwing out the alcohol isn't something my character would do, yet if she doesn't she'll be dead.
So, I'm at a loss.
Just as mum and dad warned, drugs, and alcohol are bad, m'kay? Not to belittle the situation (I know, too late), but the rules are pretty harsh to kind of steer people away from those avenues. And like all things pathfinder, the GM has the final say. If one really wanted to play the recovering drug addict trying to go straight, I'm sure they could work it out with their GM. James Jacobs has even commented on the board that quite often the ideas are forced into the rule sets without appropriate and/or thorough testing. In his example, he recommended a 1d4 Wisdom penalty that would last up to 24 hours regardless of how much alcohol you consumed, which would seem to make more sense than the current crunch.
Regardless, resting will cure the damage, and resting will happen anyway, and a DC 5 saving throw should not frighten anyone, even at level one. Yes, the normal rules as written are intense, probably because they don't come up that that often. And last but not least, this isn't the good ship lolly pop, these are murderous pirates who knocked you out and kidnapped you into slave labor. The quality of their rum shouldn't really be the main concern here, but as a numbers guy, I can certainly understand the apprehension.
Also, alcohol is technically a poison, in game terms, which brings in the use of the Heal skill. Treating poison would give you a bonus to the save while Long Term Care would double the healing of the ability damage.
@Baltzar
The listing was just to show that Elven Absinthe and Dwarven Fire Ale, despite being named like alcoholic drinks, probably are as much alcoholic Drinks as H is a letter, Bath Salt is for a Bubble Bath, Speed has something to do with Velocity, Weed is something you remove from your garden, and a coke line is an array of soft drink bottles(just to list some examples)
So if our rum is a "Drug" as the addiction seems to imply, then yes, I'm pretty certain it is, in fact, spiked with something. Which renders the whole discussion about it's handling quite moot.
If you just accept that what they give you to drink is not normal alcohol, you should not be under obligation to drink it. And if you take Rhemus up on his offer to remove the toxic part, you can drink the normal rum that remains.
Another aspect: I've been influencing people since the beginning. I never got an alchemical Charisma Bonus for drinking my Rum before. Something changed, last night. So yeah, I am pretty certain they are spiking our drinks. AGAIN...(remembers the Oil of Taggert-thing that brought us on board in the first place...)
Okay, so GM let me know what if anything happens when Rhemus purifies my rum ration then, assuming he offers to me directly.
I have an idea that might work to help dal with Baltzar's budding (or maybe not so budding) alcoholism.
It would require casting a spell on her though, so I wanted to make sure that was ok with you before I went ahead with it.
My thought was, if Baltzar starts taking enough con damage or ending up fatigued often enough that it becomes apparent to the rest of us that she needs help, or if she decides to talk to us, Sandman can use Sow Thought to plant a post-hypnotic suggestion in her head that would help her overcome her dependance and cope with withdrawals.
Could make for an interesting roleplay opportunity, but I won't do it if you're not interested.
wouldn't her faith still require her to drink, as per the limitations of that spell making her suspect her mind was altered?
I honestly think it's easier not to mind control each other, and just let Rhemus clean out the toxins.
Sow Thought isn't mind control. It's more like Inception.
I'd just be giving her the idea that she could stand to be more responsible with her alcohol consumption. I could even do it with her full knowledge under the guise of "hypnosis" or something. Just because you know a thought isn't originally yours doesn't mean you have to fight it.
it's not like Besmara would revoke her Witch-ness if she doesn't drink every day.
Yeah, but planting thoughts the target ends up acting upon essentially is mind control. Just telling you that I would take grave offense if you tried to influence me that way and I found out(speaking in-character, here, i know you offered in discussion but there's still a will save and the necessity of proper character reaction.)
And I think Worship of Besmara is a pretty focal point of her Character from what I heard and red so far. If she ended up making Besmara her Patron, then yes, Besmara could revoke her witch-iness in a way.
For the record, "Friendly" NPCs will aid characters with any skills they may have during the day work shift.
"Helpful" NPCs will do so as well but also aid characters during night or "sleep" jobs as well.
I think the easiest solution would be Batlzar of Besmara have Rhemus of Besmara toast their drinks together to remove any unwanted contaminants.
Yeah, NPC's had their chance. I'll teach them about not being helpful...one body at a time...
Rhemus believes the rum is spiked, because he did not feel strange the first couple of nights. He offered all the Crew to clean the impurities, which included Baltzar.
I won't cast any spell that isn't strictly beneficial on another character without their express permission.
I'm not sure I buy the idea that planting thoughts a person ends up acting upon counts as mind control. That's pretty much exactly what they entire field of advertising is about.
I put Sow Thought in the same category as Charm Person. As a player I wouldn't do it to other PCs because character autonomy is an important part of the game's social contract, but it isn't something that my character would ever consider to be wrong. It's just one more weapon in the war for the crew's hearts and minds.
I think the easiest solution would be Batlzar of Besmara have Rhemus of Besmara toast their drinks together to remove any unwanted contaminants.
There you go settling all these fun arguments with again.
well, best get a list ready of hearts and minds you want functioning. Because lungs are going down starting tonight.
Mr. Chumlett seems pretty clearly hostile, and won't be missed. May the Sharks enjoy him.