Why are many Gun-using classes banned?

I'm not saying this stuff doesn't exist in Numeria. It's a great region based off a really whacky 2nd Edition adventure. Good stuff, but pretty contained. The tech isn't widespread.

Contained? Surly if Pathfinders can reach the peaks of Irrisen, Technic League opertives can do the same. Forget tech at this point, teleport anyone? Hard to contain tech when such spells are freely avalible.

But keep in mind that guns only came into prominence in the Mana Wastes because of the utter lack of working magic there. In the rest of Golarion, where magic is available in some form to just about everyone, I think most people view them as a curiosity at best.

bdk86 wrote:

I'm not saying this stuff doesn't exist in Numeria. It's a great region based off a really whacky 2nd Edition adventure. Good stuff, but pretty contained. The tech isn't widespread.

Contained? Surly if Pathfinders can reach the peaks of Irrisen, Technic League opertives can do the same. Forget tech at this point, teleport anyone? Hard to contain tech when such spells are freely avalible.

Don't forget the gunmakers are DELIBERTLY under manufacturing guns. They could make HUNDREDS of more guns a month than they do. I think it said (or implied) that they only make a handful of any model any given year for external sale. The rest, and the best, they keep to themselves.

Cant you still play a magic using gun person with the Magus Myrmidarch archetype? Dip a couple levels into Gunslinger and blast way.

Cant you still play a magic using gun person with the Magus Myrmidarch archetype? Dip a couple levels into Gunslinger and blast way.

You can! I've seen it and it's both very flashy and very cool.

FYI, I'm a product of the Final Fantasy generation, so in my mind:

guns + magic = amazeballs

Lass wrote:

Cant you still play a magic using gun person with the Magus Myrmidarch archetype? Dip a couple levels into Gunslinger and blast way.

You can! I've seen it and it's both very flashy and very cool.

FYI, I'm a product of the Final Fantasy generation, so in my mind:

guns + magic = amazeballs

I'm with ya there.

Lookin' at something wacky like that for my next (hopefully will survive past level 2) gunslinger.

Ive seen that build do ridiculous damage on crits.

[…snip too much nested quote…]

I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.

I believe the ISWG is for GM not players, so it seems natural that most board members don’t own or read it. The cultures of Golarion are also described in other books, intended for players, like the ISP, DEP, the Tales and the web fiction.

No, the ISWG is for players too. Hence why it's on the Additional Resources page.

But keep in mind that guns only came into prominence in the Mana Wastes because of the utter lack of working magic there. In the rest of Golarion, where magic is available in some form to just about everyone, I think most people view them as a curiosity at best.

Only in Mana Wastes? I think you have not read most of my posts. I am talking about Numeria. pg 142 ISWG look at it. SpiderMech+Duel Machine Guns. Very much north of Mana Wastes. This is my issue, I brought this up when UC first came out, and I was told this issue would be revisited with Ultimate Equipment. It hasn't, so whats the deal? Are we just pretending this place doesn't exsist, nothing to see here?

Alexandra Pitchford wrote:

But keep in mind that guns only came into prominence in the Mana Wastes because of the utter lack of working magic there. In the rest of Golarion, where magic is available in some form to just about everyone, I think most people view them as a curiosity at best.

Only in Mana Wastes? I think you have not read most of my posts. I am talking about Numeria. pg 142 ISWG look at it. SpiderMech+Duel Machine Guns. Very much north of Mana Wastes. This is my issue, I brought this up when UC first came out, and I was told this issue would be revisited with Ultimate Equipment. It hasn't, so whats the deal? Are we just pretending this place doesn't exsist, nothing to see here?

James Jacobs has touched on this in his massive thread of sprawl, but I'll try to sum up what he said: until they are ready to do a treatment of how laser guns work in Golarion, Numeria is not on the table for close treatment.

James Jacobs has touched on this in his massive thread of sprawl, but I'll try to sum up what he said: until they are ready to do a treatment of how laser guns work in Golarion, Numeria is not on the table for close treatment.

If you were going to do treatment of how laser guns worked in Golarion, wouldnt Ultimate Equipment be the time for that? Or are we waiting for Even More Ultimate Equipment?

Duel Machine Guns.

Just a side note here, Duel Machine Guns would make for a very short, very fatal, on both sides, duel.

I would assume you mean Dual, as in a pair, not Duel, as in Code Duello, since that would be ugly with machine guns.

And, to be honest, for PFS, "Gun-Using Classes" are not banned. Gunslinger, the only gun-using class is perfectly legal. Most gun-using archetypes have been banned, in large part because Golarion, in general, does not have ready access to guns.

Guns come from the Mana Wastes.

Whatever the heck they use in Numeria has not yet been defined in Pathfinder, much less been put into a legal source for PFS to reference.

Do you have any sort of stats on your Spidermech, much less the so-called dual machine guns?

And, in general, even in non-PFS Golarion, how much do the whatsits from Numeria travel outside of Numeria?

Nimon wrote:

Duel Machine Guns.

Just a side note here, Duel Machine Guns would make for a very short, very fatal, on both sides, duel.

I would assume you mean Dual, as in a pair, not Duel, as in Code Duello, since that would be ugly with machine guns.

And, to be honest, for PFS, "Gun-Using Classes" are not banned. Gunslinger, the only gun-using class is perfectly legal. Most gun-using archetypes have been banned, in large part because Golarion, in general, does not have ready access to guns.

Guns come from the Mana Wastes.

Whatever the heck they use in Numeria has not yet been defined in Pathfinder, much less been put into a legal source for PFS to reference.

Do you have any sort of stats on your Spidermech, much less the so-called dual machine guns?

And, in general, even in non-PFS Golarion, how much do the whatsits from Numeria travel outside of Numeria?

Yes I did mean dual. Sorry to be the one to point out the Elephant in the room when talking about tech in Golarion. If they had no plans to support it, they shouldn't have added it.

kinevon wrote:

Nimon wrote:

Duel Machine Guns.

Just a side note here, Duel Machine Guns would make for a very short, very fatal, on both sides, duel.

I would assume you mean Dual, as in a pair, not Duel, as in Code Duello, since that would be ugly with machine guns.

And, to be honest, for PFS, "Gun-Using Classes" are not banned. Gunslinger, the only gun-using class is perfectly legal. Most gun-using archetypes have been banned, in large part because Golarion, in general, does not have ready access to guns.

Guns come from the Mana Wastes.

Whatever the heck they use in Numeria has not yet been defined in Pathfinder, much less been put into a legal source for PFS to reference.

Do you have any sort of stats on your Spidermech, much less the so-called dual machine guns?

And, in general, even in non-PFS Golarion, how much do the whatsits from Numeria travel outside of Numeria?

Yes I did mean dual. Sorry to be the one to point out the Elephant in the room when talking about tech in Golarion. If they had no plans to support it, they shouldn't have added it.

Except that Numerian tech isn't from Golarion. Its from outer space. Literally.

Yes I did mean dual. Sorry to be the one to point out the Elephant in the room when talking about tech in Golarion. If they had no plans to support it, they shouldn't have added it.

Man, if they had no plans to support PCs taking the Test of the Starstone, they shouldn't have added it.

(there are another million examples for this)

Yes I did mean dual. Sorry to be the one to point out the Elephant in the room when talking about tech in Golarion. If they had no plans to support it, they shouldn't have added it.

Ever heard of foreshadowing?

When they have a place in the schedule that it makes sense to them to do a piece in Numeria, James has indicated that they intend to, but it's not now and since Ultimate Equipment is a general PFRPG book, not doing a Numeria specific section is perfectly appropriate.

Especially since "laser guns in my fantasy" is going to be a huge pain point, even more so than "gunslingers in my fantasy". I expect the Numerian weapons to be non-open for PFS play whenever the Numeria AP finally arrives.

Nimon wrote:

Yes I did mean dual. Sorry to be the one to point out the Elephant in the room when talking about tech in Golarion. If they had no plans to support it, they shouldn't have added it.

Man, if they had no plans to support PCs taking the Test of the Starstone, they shouldn't have added it.

(there are another million examples for this)

Last I heard, the Test of the Starstone was going to be one of their Epic level APs, or maybe that's mythic...not sure but it is on their "to do" list.

If you want to bury your heads in the sand to this issue it is fine. This is a bit more than the test of the starstone, its an entire country. It doesnt matter that it came from space, another plane, Dr Who, an evolved monkey, point is that its here.

Some people let their love for the game blind them to any mistakes, but you can not help Pazio if you just pat them on the back all the time. In this case they made a mistake.

If you want to bury your heads in the sand to this issue it is fine. This is a bit more than the test of the starstone, its an entire country. It doesnt matter that it came from space, another plane, Dr Who, an evolved monkey, point is that its here.

Some people let their love for the game blind them to any mistakes, but you can not help Pazio if you just pat them on the back all the time. In this case they made a mistake.

Sure, mistake made...they put in a land which was obviously an homage to certain bits of 1E D&D (Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's adventure "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"). If they want to "fix the mistake", just retcon Numeria out of existence...problem solved. ;-)

Sure, mistake made...they put in a land which was obviously an homage to certain bits of 1E D&D (Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's adventure "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"). If they want to "fix the mistake", just retcon Numeria out of existence...problem solved. ;-)

Yes, that is one way to do it. That would be more accetable than the current state of limbo of a country that sits in the middle of Northern Golarion.

Nimon wrote:

If you want to bury your heads in the sand to this issue it is fine. This is a bit more than the test of the starstone, its an entire country. It doesnt matter that it came from space, another plane, Dr Who, an evolved monkey, point is that its here.

Some people let their love for the game blind them to any mistakes, but you can not help Pazio if you just pat them on the back all the time. In this case they made a mistake.

Sure, mistake made...they put in a land which was obviously an homage to certain bits of 1E D&D (Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's adventure "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"). If they want to "fix the mistake", just retcon Numeria out of existence...problem solved. ;-)

Which should be easy enough

"Hey.. whats this button do?"

BOOOM

200 miles away, you see a shepard with a flock of sheep looking at a giant mushroom cloud.

LazarX wrote:

Nimon wrote:

One of the things that turned me on to pathfinder was that is was differant than other fantasy settings. It was such a mix of cultures and differant elements that I thought it had real potential. If you take away these elements, it becomes another fantasy game, and frankly there are more than enough of those out there.

Pathfinder is it's own thing. and part of that thing is that guns aren't up to the level of the American Old West. Nor are they animesque in the style of the spellslinger. Guns being exactly what they are is part of what makes Golarion unique.

I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.

Putting aside the snide arrogance of your response, I'd point out that the decision for PFS was made by people who could justly claim an intimacy of the setting that would dwarf yours, mine, and the majority of the people on this thread stacked together.

If you can't respect their level of expertise, who in this thread can actually carry on this discussion with you with any purpose?

As far as I'm concerned, that means we're done.
As far as the folks at Paizo are concerned, this was done a long time ago. What's the norm in Numeria, does not define the norm of the campaign setting.

I think the Spellslinger would seem right at home in Numeria. Do you own the ISWG or are you like a few others whom have commented who dont own the book that actually defines the culture of Golarion.

Putting aside the snide arrogance of your response, I'd point out that the decision for PFS was made by people who could justly claim an intimacy of the setting that would dwarf yours, mine, and the majority of the people on this thread stacked together.

If you can't respect their level of expertise, who in this thread can actually carry on this discussion with you with any purpose?

As far as I'm concerned, that means we're done.
As far as the folks at Paizo are concerned, this was done a long time ago. What's the norm in Numeria, does not define the norm of the campaign setting.

Pointing out a mistake is not disrespect, I am sure Pazio can take it. If that is the only thing you have is to hide behind "hey they made it so they know best", than your right you are done. Next.

Nimon wrote:

If you want to bury your heads in the sand to this issue it is fine. This is a bit more than the test of the starstone, its an entire country. It doesnt matter that it came from space, another plane, Dr Who, an evolved monkey, point is that its here.

Some people let their love for the game blind them to any mistakes, but you can not help Pazio if you just pat them on the back all the time. In this case they made a mistake.

Sure, mistake made...they put in a land which was obviously an homage to certain bits of 1E D&D (Dave Arneson's Blackmoor, Gary Gygax's adventure "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"). If they want to "fix the mistake", just retcon Numeria out of existence...problem solved. ;-)

Looks like it's not going away, at least not judging by an upcoming Campaign Setting book:

Inner Sea Bestiary

Alright, I admit I should have used the title "Gun-Using Archetypes", but to me, an archetype is almost a separate class if it heavily modifies certain aspects of the class (such as the Spellslinger using the gun as a focus).

On the note of nitpicking: Nimon, would you please stop going on about Numeria! I was only asking a question, not starting a debate about what should and should not be in the books (that is what editors are for)! So it is one picture of a Wild Wild West Mecha Spider with Machine Guns, those things are EPIC level at least! If you want a place for them to appear, consider that most of that tech is of artifact-level rarity that would be more appropriate in the PF equivalent of an Epic Level Handbook, or the Secrets of Xendric supplement from Eberron.

Concerning the banning of the archetypes: thank you all. I was actually curious if there had been a balance issue with the classes, if they were deemed "over powered", or what ever else. Since many of you pointed out that it didn't fit the image of the world, I am willing to accept that. What's important is that the world's evolving, and that (hopefully) the archetypes will be taken off the ban list because the culture of Golarion has caught up with it.

Until then, I will wait patiently and build on my own campaign ideas.

On the note of nitpicking: Nimon, would you please stop going on about Numeria! I was only asking a question, not starting a debate about what should and should not be in the books (that is what editors are for)! So it is one picture of a Wild Wild West Mecha Spider with Machine Guns, those things are EPIC level at least! If you want a place for them to appear, consider that most of that tech is of artifact-level rarity that would be more appropriate in the PF equivalent of an Epic Level Handbook, or the Secrets of Xendric supplement from Eberron.

I only brought it up since most of reasons given to you were based on this notion that tech ONLY exsistes in Alkenstar, or that the archetypes do not fit anywhere, which simply isnt true. I never debated what should be in a book, only what IS in a book, and its not just a picture of a spider-mech.

Looks like it's not going away, at least not judging by an upcoming Campaign Setting book:

Inner Sea Bestiary

Exactly right, so if you expect people who play society to buy this book, might want to start supporting the concepts in the society.

CanisDirus wrote:

Looks like it's not going away, at least not judging by an upcoming Campaign Setting book:

Inner Sea Bestiary

Exactly right, so if you expect people who play society to buy this book, might want to start supporting the concepts in the society.

Not everything in that book is going to be based on Numeria. In fact, most of it probably won't be.

Let's just say we didn't idly pick that image to serve as the mock-up cover.

Sounds like there maybe a decent amount of Numerian material.

I miss my twelve armed Synthesist summoner / gunslinger with 12 double barrel pistols, that could if needed fire 24 shots in a single round, or fire 12 shots a round consistantly.
8( SADFACED

I miss my twelve armed Synthesist summoner / gunslinger with 12 double barrel pistols, that could if needed fire 24 shots in a single round, or fire 12 shots a round consistantly.

8( SADFACED

So um, why not just have the Eidolon fire 24 shots and the summoner fire off 4?

On a serious note, other than reloading the guns. I was a mysterious stranger, and added my charisma, for grit. So if I needed a bbeg dead within 20 feat, I popped grit, and got +7 (24 cha) to damage on 24 shots. >.> <..<

So let me see if I understand, a piece of alien tech shows up in Numeria, where it's stated the technic league doesn't know how half the stuff they're using works, and people argue that this means Golarion should be 'advanced' to advanced firearms.

[sarc]Wow, thank you for solving world hunger, we'll just drop iPads into Somalia and they'll instantly become a first level nation. [/sarc]

Edit: I should say that some people are arguing.

So let me see if I understand, a piece of alien tech shows up in Numeria, where it's stated the technic league doesn't know how half the stuff they're using works, and people argue that this means Golarion should be 'advanced' to advanced firearms.

[sarc]Wow, thank you for solving world hunger, we'll just drop iPads into Somalia and they'll instantly become a first level nation. [/sarc]

Not all of us. The thread STARTED with "Why no non-gunslinger archetypes?". Numerical just sort of crept in.

Alright, for the sake of the ACTUAL topic, Numeria is to be treated as Area 51:
We will not use it to support an argument because what is or is not there is not clear. END OF DISCUSSION!

Also, I think I can now understand the idea behind banning the Spellslinger and the Holy Gun. After all, how can you have gun-using casters in a Dead Magic zone, which is where the guns are being made. And since people have pointed out that guns are being purposely underproduced and few are being exported, I can understand the archetypes not appearing anywhere else. Thank you.

[sarc]Wow, thank you for solving world hunger, we'll just drop iPads into Somalia and they'll instantly become a first level nation. [/sarc]

Funny you mention that, thats how the Japanese started making new guns after the Portugese washed up on their shore in the 1500s, which they then used to defeat enemies in Korea. I am just advocating the archytpes. Not new weapons, but just the possibility that spellslingers may exsist in Numeria. With that new book coming out Golarion will be introduced to androids and all sorts of new things if half the posts about it by the developers is true.

started researching spellslingers. The first few comments on this thread made me giggle. Guns rare, for PFS?... come on. I can not attend a PFS event without seeing at least 2 gunslingers being played, many times 2 at a given table. Logic fail! Maybe they wanted guns to be rare in 2012...but that ship has long since sailed and sunk. Gunslingers are the norm now way to many advantages over bow users.

started researching spellslingers. The first few comments on this thread made me giggle. Guns rare, for PFS?... come on. I can not attend a PFS event without seeing at least 2 gunslingers being played, many times 2 at a given table. Logic fail! Maybe they wanted guns to be rare in 2012...but that ship has long since sailed and sunk. Gunslingers are the norm now way to many advantages over bow users.

Characters from tables played at in recent convention:

Cleric x3
Rogue x3
Fighter x4
Beastmaster(?) Cavalier
Redeemer Paladin
Inquisitor
Alchemist x2
Kensai Magus
Druid
Barbarian
Summoner
Hellknight Fighter
Oracle
Cavalier
Monk-Shadowdancer
Summoner/Fighter
Sorceress
Martial Artist Monk
Master-of-Many-Styles Monk/Fighter
Paladin
Wizard

So, at least I'm not drowning under Gunslingers...

started researching spellslingers. The first few comments on this thread made me giggle. Guns rare, for PFS?... come on. I can not attend a PFS event without seeing at least 2 gunslingers being played, many times 2 at a given table. Logic fail! Maybe they wanted guns to be rare in 2012...but that ship has long since sailed and sunk. Gunslingers are the norm now way to many advantages over bow users.

There's a difference between guns being rare (and tech limited) in Golarian and gunslingers not being rare in PFS.

Here thar be thread necromancy... And conspiracy!

I have a 5th-level pistolero, but I haven't encountered another gunslinger PC in PFS organised play, in approx. 80 scenarios/modules played/GMed.

I have a 5th-level pistolero, but I haven't encountered another gunslinger PC in PFS organised play, in approx. 80 scenarios/modules played/GMed.

I have an alchemist 7/gunslinger 1, and in the seven months I've been playing at my venue, I've seen ONE other gunslinger at the table, and heard of ONE other player talk about her gunslinger (that I've never played with; the character, not the player).

Wow...

This is Psionics all over again...

Just like Psionics, people tend to believe Gunslingers are more powerful than they really are. I wonder how much of the "overpowered" comes from people just not knowing or enforcing the rules...

Can I point out it was the Dwarves of a certain Sky Citadel who created the first firearms after many years of seclusion? Alkenstar was essentially built almost on the top of Dongun's Hold and gained access to firearms when the Dwarves reopened 'for business'.

Mystic: I entirely agree with you. Having played my Gunslinger to level 10, I know what he is capable of. I know I can hit a lot of the time, what to do in combat. Do I think he is overpowered? My Will save +4 tells me no.

Yeah, gunslingers are an interesting thing. I hear a lot of people talk about them but don't see that many of them in PFS. Do people really need the bigger guns to make them work?

I have fun with mine at any rate :) .

Not at all Michael. I even remember a local player telling me I shouldnt play one when I was first thinking of making a character in August of last year. The character has died once , but got better and Ive managed to get him to level 10.

He has developed a bit of a reputation amongst local players as a touch attack killer (which I dont mind at all :) ) and Ive had characters in games actually sticking close to him (for safety? )

Yet there is only one other locally and I think for my next try Im going to try the Pistolero.

Id actually like to see firearm wielding enemies in games.

I have two of them and I see at least 1 or 2 at every venue I go to.

Out of universe, it seems management just doesn't want us to have nice things.

The in-universe explanation, that they're too rare for the other archetypes to have picked them up yet... falls a bit flat. Ok, they come from Alkenstar. Down in southeast Garundi. You know what's right next to Alkenstar? Nex. The biggest magic group around. The idea that none of them have hopped over the border to pick up a boom-stick doesn't quite work for me.

What else is near Alkenstar? How about the Mana Wastes? You know, where all those mutated super monsters are? Sounds like a job for Big Game Hunter Rangers to me.

To be fair, Holy Gun I can see taking a while longer to pick up. Same with Black Powder Inquisition. While there's Geb just over the southern border, undead central doesn't strike me as the best place for paladins and inquisitors to hang out.

Musketeers though, I completely agree with. The tone set by the musketeer archetype rings of an organization that has been around quite a while, with traditional heirloom guns passed down to new members. I don't see that being around in Golarion yet.

I could see other gunslinging archtypes becoming boons for scenarios in the upcoming season.

I could see other gunslinging archtypes becoming boons for scenarios in the upcoming season.

"I know we took away your player options, but here, have some back. Now lick our boots and tell us how nice we are~" < that's how I always read that anyway. If its okay to be a boon, why not just open it up anyway... Taking away options doesn't make them more special when you give them back. Its a fake special, and one that deprives people of what they want.