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Reference: Treasure for New Characters
A while back I was running a conversion of an 1E module and starting all four characters at level 5, using the "pick items" method from that table. It felt a bit off to me. Normally, a fresh level 5 party would have found ~2 level 5 items during level 4 already. Because all of the players started fresh, that wasn't the case. As a GM I worried if that meant I should drop extra level 5 items (armor runes, really) to make up for it.
What are your experiences with it? Have you used it with a whole group starting at higher level, for example for an AP? Does it work well? Need a change?
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If you compare it to the treasure per encounter table, it feels low in terms of total acquisition. The treasure per encounter table tends to assume a sizable amount of treasure is used as consumables and such. If your players tend to use less than that (and in my experience most do) you can feel pretty constrained starting out.
Combined with the inability to have higher level items unless you take the lump sum and just blow all your gold on it (as the lump sum is less total wealth), it can feel pretty bare bones at certain levels like ones with key runes. Level 5 is one of those.
I've run multiple APs starting at level 11 and that has mostly worked fine. Treasure in PF2 scales very quickly as you level, so the fact that you were a bit poor at level X when you started it is basically a rounding error by level X+2.
I do have a couple of specific pain points and notes though:
1. Breakpoing levels for fundamental runes feel worse. Starting at level 11 means your biggest item RAW is a +2 Striking Weapon, and then you're pretty much immediately on the hunt for Greater Striking. Some APs then throw you into the action for a couple of levels so you can't actually get that right away and that feels crappy. (RAW in Fists of the Ruby Phoenix there's basically no time to do this in the entirety of book 1, so you're looking at level 14 or 15 before you get any downtime to acquire one!)
In that situation, I give them the option to use the lump sum method and devote a huge chunk of wealth to starting with the +2 Greater Striking weapon. That item lasts them a long time and although it makes them pretty poor on everything else at the start, acquiring that stuff is generally easier.
2. If they don't start off with those items, you have a great motivator for them as either treasure or a quest reward. Maybe the campaign starts with a patron offering them magic armor runes as part of a quest. PCs who don't have those and want them will be HIGHLY motivated.
3. If you just don't like how it feels that they're poor, give them more stuff! Maybe their patron gifts them it at the start. Maybe you just say "your last adventure was profitable and you start off with +1 armor of your choice in addition to the starting treasure." Maybe you give them an extra 100 gold do to whatever they want with. Wealth by level in PF2 scales so fast that this feels very impactful initially but very quickly becomes a rounding error.
* In FotRP specifically, I house ruled a certain amount of crafting time in each day that didn't count against the clock in book 1. While definitely not RAW, it made the Crafter in the party very happy because instead of being locked out of that for the entire book, they suddenly had a critical ability and whose weapon they would swap a rune onto during that time every day became a hugely impactful decision.
Sometimes breaking the rules just makes for a more fun game for the players. :) So if you find the RAW numbers aren't fun, don't be afraid to change them.
It feels low. Almost like Level+1 is a more appropriate spread.
At least from what I've read over the last few years, giving out a good amount more treasure than is strictly necessary doesn't have the catastrophic consequences it used to have in 1E.
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I think the table works for what it is -- a simple number that gets characters to roughly the correct starting point for the level. I find most players always choose the lump-sum table rather than the pick-table, mostly to get a higher level rune.
I typically wish there was a little more, but more to allow for some supplementary items -- either consumables or weaker skill boosters -- rather than purely focusing fundamental runes for weapons/armor. But I think if you increase the amounts people would still just focus/save for the big runes.
I think a solution would be a slightly tweaked picked table, that's a more generous -- increase the number of items in each level by +1. The goal for me is (1) to incentivized the pick-table over the lump sum, (2) encourage characters to take a number of their lower priority items rather than invest 100% into 1-2 runes. I would want to accelerate a on-level useful item drop early in the adventure to make up for the 1-2 items that they should have found early in the previous level.
Or perhaps allowed the level+1 lump sum, but limiting item level to your starting level, so no buying up.
At least from what I've read over the last few years, giving out a good amount more treasure than is strictly necessary doesn't have the catastrophic consequences it used to have in 1E.
I think this is true, assuming you limit items (found or purchased) to equal to party level or maybe party level +1 (for like 2 items) it shouldn't be a big deal (also need to limit consumables a bit, as they have an outsized impact for their price).
A lower starting amount than what the party would have picked up normally in an adventure I've never really seen as a problem.
The player already has a bunch of higher level character abilities to remember and so as long as they've got the essentials they should be fine.
Where I have seen some breakdown is if a character dies, the party keeps all the magic items and then a new character comes in with more magic items. Character death is generally uncommon, but I ran into one group that had 3 characters die over 2 levels.
This is part of why I love automatic bonus progression. At least for martial characters, weapons runes and armor runes make a huge portion of their spend. Honestly casters too, they just don't have the weapon spend.
Remove all that and turn it into part of character progression and you're left with less of a problem on character death.
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I think the table is much better for new characters joining an existing party than for starting a whole party, generally, as it does tend to be on the low side. I think that is good because it gives a bit of consequence to switching characters mid campaign, not a massive one, but a noticeable one.
Ideally, APs that start at a different level than 1 would have something in the players guide or their intro material talking about starting items for new parties vs established parties and think through how new characters are going to be pretty desperate to spend early gold, but I think that is something that is not yet there.
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A lower starting amount than what the party would have picked up normally in an adventure I've never really seen as a problem.
The player already has a bunch of higher level character abilities to remember and so as long as they've got the essentials they should be fine.
"If your party has kept the treasure of dead or retired PCs and passed it on to new characters, you might need to give the new character less than the values on the table or reduce some of the treasure rewards of the next few adventures."
I would love to respond to that but that would require me to understand what your point is.
I would love to respond to that but that would require me to understand what your point is.
They're telling you that the rules tell you to give less wealth than the table identifies because you're letting the previous character's gear persist.
Of course that has the problem that the pre-existing characters are likely to keep the wealth between themselves, meaning the new character is simply under geared.
Although, it appears likely TheRavenBlack meant to quote someone else who was complaining about what happens when a PC dies, and not you.
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It works fairly well, as long as you keep in mind the assumptions:
1) A good sized chunk of treasure found during adventuring is expected to be consumable items that are meant to be used fairly quickly (while their item levels are close to the level of the encounters and they are close to "on par" for effectiveness);
2) It is costly to have items with an item level equal to character level (or very costly for a character level +1 item);
3) Each character is expected to find one (or maybe two) permanent item(s) with an item level equal to their character level as they adventure to gain their next character level;
4) The table is slightly less than what might be expected to be found when adventuring because the player can tailor the specific items to suit the character and play-style instead of relying on what the previous adventures provided.
Given the system math (as mentioned), it doesn't throw things off that much if you allow characters to be at character level +1. Or if you allow Relics and/or other alternate systems.
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If I were to choose one variant rule to have new to 2e groups use, it would be ABP.
Yes, it is a bit more paperwork to do when leveling up a character. And the variant rule has to be houseruled for some classes, most notably Alchemist.
But the gains in simplification of not needing to know which equipment is fundamental for math reasons, and which is just fun to play with, can more than make up for that.
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If I were to choose one variant rule to have new to 2e groups use, it would be ABP.
Yes, it is a bit more paperwork to do when leveling up a character. And the variant rule has to be houseruled for some classes, most notably Alchemist.
But the gains in simplification of not needing to know which equipment is fundamental for math reasons, and which is just fun to play with, can more than make up for that.
Except for the part where it removes a lot of the value of finding gear and skews the game even more towards "level dictates everything."
Aside from the stuff it breaks (which ARP fixes), ABP skews the game math with even more level up power. Every level bump is massive, and then nothing really happens until the next level. There's much less incremental improvement.
It just feels awkward and clunky to play that way.
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If I were to choose one variant rule to have new to 2e groups use, it would be ABP.
Yes, it is a bit more paperwork to do when leveling up a character. And the variant rule has to be houseruled for some classes, most notably Alchemist.
But the gains in simplification of not needing to know which equipment is fundamental for math reasons, and which is just fun to play with, can more than make up for that.
Except for the part where it removes a lot of the value of finding gear and skews the game even more towards "level dictates everything."
Aside from the stuff it breaks (which ARP fixes), ABP skews the game math with even more level up power. Every level bump is massive, and then nothing really happens until the next level. There's much less incremental improvement.
It just feels awkward and clunky to play that way.
I mean level does dictate everything, the other stuff is layers of obfuscation to make it less obvious.
There is an expected amount of wealth that characters should get, and they're expected to spend it on certain things to stay relevant at doing those things.
Imagine if you were playing a fighter and decided never to buy armor or weapon runes (fundamental or property). You would have a bad time, because the enemy is designed in a way that expects you to have those items. It's not actually a choice.
Might as well do away with things that aren't really choices and bake them into the character's progression.
And personally I actually find that it increases the value of finding (magical) gear. Without ABP I'm just looking for weapons and armor with runes that I can transfer, or shit I can sell to buy the runes.
When the main things my character needs/wants are guaranteed, and in fact can't be obtained other than by leveling, I'm actually more invested and more interested in the "interesting" loot that might be found. For me, my default is to just go around buying all the "math fixers/enhancers" because the game expects me to have them. I'm not interested in items that aren't those (at least mostly not interested, some items are really good, but rarely do those appear written in by the AP).
But you give me ABP and then throw me a Cloak of the Bat, now I'm interested in hanging upside down by my feet and having some potential to fly.
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On the contrary, if the GM is giving out decent treasure, the fighter is never going to be more than 1 behind on important things, sometimes even ahead of the curve, and likely might have a bunch of stuff the player is excited about using instead of sitting on a pile of gold, waiting to buy the next fundamental rune that they might find before the next time they can go shopping anyway.
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On the contrary, if the GM is giving out decent treasure, the fighter is never going to be more than 1 behind on important things, sometimes even ahead of the curve, and likely might have a bunch of stuff the player is excited about using instead of sitting on a pile of gold, waiting to buy the next fundamental rune that they might find before the next time they can go shopping anyway.
All I can say is, that has not been typically my experience.
I'm usually just hoarding gold salivating at the next weapon/armor runes, skill items, and on the look out for a few specific items that are good for my specific character. I look at most everything else as a "distraction" from being able to get that next +1 to attack, more damage dice, AC, saves, or skills.
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I would love to respond to that but that would require me to understand what your point is.They're telling you that the rules tell you to give less wealth than the table identifies because you're letting the previous character's gear persist.
Of course that has the problem that the pre-existing characters are likely to keep the wealth between themselves, meaning the new character is simply under geared.
Although, it appears likely TheRavenBlack meant to quote someone else who was complaining about what happens when a PC dies, and not you.
Yes. Misquote from my part. Thank you, Claxon.
My sincere apologies, Perses13.
My players hate looting, so I have experiemented with other ways to give them gear, such as a crafting-based Iron Gods campaign. Currently, in Strength of Thousands they work for the Magaambya Academy and the academy provides them with level-appropriate gear before sending them on a mission. I have a flimsy excuse that higher-level gear can be lent only to people who can protect it, so the Magaambya avoids handing out gear higher than the character's level. Thus, the players freshly equip themselves before a mission.
For example, the party was 8th level at the point in [i]Hurricane's Howl[/b] where they were leaving on an archaeological mission to the ruins of Bloodsalt. Thus, I sent out the following instructions:
Outfitting for Bloodsalt
1. Armor or explorer's clothing upgraded to 8th level: +1 resilient with a common armor property rune up to 8th level, such as Energy-Resistant(acid) or greater Slick; or any common specific magic armor up to 8th level, such as Message Mail.
2. Weapon or handwraps upgraded to 8th level: +1 striking with a common weapon property rune up to 8th level, such as Astral or Flaming; or any common specific magic weapon up to 8th level, such as a Vampire-Fang Morningstar. If you don't use weapons, you can receive a wand or staff up to 8th level.
3. Given a common magic item up to 8th level, such as lesser Clarity Goggles, Extra Lung, Bottled Air, or Wondrous Figurine (Jade Serpent).
4. Given a branch-identifying item up to 5th level clearly decorated in the theme of your Magaambya Branch or your own mask. The branch themes are:
Cascade Bearers: hyenas
Emerald Boughs: spiders
Rain-Scribes: snakes
Tempest-Sun Mages: leopards
Uzunjati: elephants
For example, teacher Nhyira has an elephant mask and a cloak of illusion (formerly known as Cloak of Elvenkind) in shades of gray that resembles elephant hide. The identifying item does not have to be an entire outfit. A simple amulet or toolkit worn openly would suffice, including the silver charms below. Or existing gear can be decorated.
5. Provided with silver charms that tarnish in the presence of sulfide gas.
6. Select alchemical items and consumbables costing no more than 40 gp.
7. Receive 10 weeks pay at 7th level rates and 14 weeks advance pay at 8th level rates: (1/2)(70 days)(2.5 gp/day) + (1/2)(98 days)(3 gp/day) = 234.5 gp [I had not yet paid them their 7th-level wages.]
I received responses such as:
Cara'sseth — 8/26/25, 6:39 PM
Cara's upgrades:
Studded Leather armor upgraded to +1 Resilient Gliding
Doesn't use weapons. Takes a Staff of Air (Greater) https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2260
Boots of Bounding https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3059
Backfire Mantle in Hyena patterns https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1040
Idris — 8/26/25, 9:13 PM
Idris Upgrades:
1. +1 Resilient Invisibilty Explorer's Outfit
2. Staff of Healing (Greater)
3. Greater Rope of Climbing
4. Shade Hat with snake, centipede, and rain decorations
5. Silver Charms of snakes, centipedes, spiders, and clouds
6. (pending)
7. added to sheet
Jinx Fuun) — 8/26/25, 6:50 PM
Jinx's upgrades
1 & 4. Armored Cloak in Emerald Boughs leaves and spiders upgraded to +1 resilient
2. +1 striking astral handwraps of mighty blows, invested onto Ikula [her heron animal companion--I fudge the rules about companions using magic items]
3. Folding boat!
Roshan — 8/26/25, 7:08 PM
Roshan's upgrades:
+1 Resilient armor with Dread rune and Enigma Mirror spellheart
+1 Striking handwraps with Frost rune
Backfire Mantle (Greater)
Hyena ear headband that works with my own ears and hat. [Roshan is a fleshwarped kitsune with 4 ears.] A full six ears are now visible, the animalistic ones poking through the Mage's Hat I wear.
Roshan also hands her Foxglove Token spellheart to Wilfred.
Zandre) — 8/26/25, 6:47 PM
Zandre's upgrades
1) armor +1 resiliant leather and rune of gliding
2) weapon +1 striking longbow of flame
3) taking cloak of Elvenkind, bought boots of Elvenkind
4) silver leopard charm and silver dragon charm
+1 resilient armor is 8th level. +1 striking weapn is 4th level, but putting a lesser Dread rune on it makes it 6th level and putting an Astral or Flaming rune on it makes it 8th level. A greater Backfire Mantle and a greater Staff of Healing are 8th level. So I was granting each 8th-level party member up to three 8th-level items. The Magaambya is generous.
However, since the party does not loot, they also do not upgrade their gear in the middle of the mission. They were stuck with their choices all throughout 8th level and most of 9th level. Then, since they were on an impromptu rescue mission for 9th through 11th levels, Magaambya teacher Lesedi teleported two crates of upgraded gear to them (Account of the delivery).
In contrast, Table 10-10: Character Wealth in the GM Core suggests the following for starting an 8th-level party: 7th: 1 item, 6th: 2 items, 5th: 1 item, 4th: 2 items, currency 180 gp. The GM Core expects the party to have full 7th-level gear at the beginning of 8th level, but not any 8th-level gear either. And at the beginning of 9th level, when they ought to have full 8th-level gear, they should have: 8th: 1 item, 7th: 2 items, 6th: 1 item, 5th: 2 items, currency 250 gp. I guess they sold off their two 4th-level items to buy the higher-level gear.
I have also made several NPCs by player-character rules rather than monster-building rules, such as Kittyhawk, Playtest Daredevil, Virgil Tibbs, Playtest Runesmith, and Ignaci Canterells, Thaumaturge 2 They have more consumables than the player characters, because I value them more, but their permanent items are simply selected as what a well-rounded character of their level would appreciate. That means magic armor and magic weapon up to their level.
I find giving Nth-level gear to Nth-level characters simpler.
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I love it, use it as is, as player and GM.
If you want an easy solution, the "itemized" works fast and easy. If you want to put in a little more work, or, if you want to start with an on-level item, you can pick "lump sum".
I don't think tweaking it (beyond a simple modifier to effective level) would be worth the extra complication.
=)
If I were to choose one variant rule to have new to 2e groups use, it would be ABP.
Yes, it is a bit more paperwork to do when leveling up a character. And the variant rule has to be houseruled for some classes, most notably Alchemist.
But the gains in simplification of not needing to know which equipment is fundamental for math reasons, and which is just fun to play with, can more than make up for that.
I ruled that elixirs and the like keep their item bonuses but they don't stack with potency bonuses.
I think I can understand why the tables are different. Typically, a Level X party would gain 2 Level X+1 permanent items over the course of gaining the next level. Think is, that's only enough X+1 items for half the party (default size is 4.) Two characters would start the next level with now at-level gear.
So when they put together the Character Wealth table they went conservative rather than have the whole party potentially end up starting with at-level items.