NEW BLOG! - Paizo & Archives of Nethys—Moving Forward Together

[Maya Coleman]

Thank you for sharing your feedback and support to us and the Archives of Nethys team! We've worked with them to develop a plan that values the site as a resource, supports our community, and is sustainable for everyone going forward.

Read today's statement from both teams!

[worldhopper]

Hooray! Thank you for listening to community feedback and taking the time to come to a better arrangement. (And an extra thank you, Maya, for moderating all of this! I'm sure it was a lot of work.)

[Ajaxius]

As someone very critical of the initial decision, this isn't ideal, but I won't let "Perfect" be the enemy of "Good Enough."

Thanks for considering your community, Paizo.

I'm looking forward to the CUP art package.

[QuidEst]

That's great to hear!

Hopefully "the art that is on AoN will be CUP-valid" will make it an even more useful tool for creators going forward, and give Paizo more incentive to add art that draws people into the game to the CUP.

[Maya Coleman]

worldhopper wrote:

Hooray! Thank you for listening to community feedback and taking the time to come to a better arrangement. (And an extra thank you, Maya, for moderating all of this! I'm sure it was a lot of work.)

Of course! Thank YOU for being honest about how you felt about this! I'll always be here /asnonthreateningaspossiblebecauseirealizethatsoundsterrifying

[Maya Coleman]

Ajaxius wrote:

As someone very critical of the initial decision, this isn't ideal, but I won't let "Perfect" be the enemy of "Good Enough."

Thanks for considering your community, Paizo.

I'm looking forward to the CUP art package.

Thank you for hearing us our even if it's not ideal for you! The CUP Art is a big priority for me once Gen Con is over!

[Maya Coleman]

QuidEst wrote:

That's great to hear!

Hopefully "the art that is on AoN will be CUP-valid" will make it an even more useful tool for creators going forward, and give Paizo more incentive to add art that draws people into the game to the CUP.

Yup, that's the plan! Thank you for reading, QuidEst!

[0xTJ]

While I'm not happy about AoN losing all of the non-CUP art, I'm overall mostly satisfied with this outcome. Though some of that depends on what exactly ends up in the CUP (thanks Maya!!). I am very happy to see that AoN is still the official rules archive!

Not having a full commercial agreement with royalties does make more sense. I think that's what most people assumed was present in the first place (I certainly did).

Losing so much non-CUP art from AoN is a big loss for people who rely on it when browsing away from our books and desktops. But with some deal in place, I have reactivated the 4/8 subscriptions I still had paused.

[William Ronald]

This is good news. Obviously, there were going to be some changes. I am glad that Paizo listened to the concerns of the community and continued to talk with Archives of Nethys.

I think that a lot of people will be relieved and it shows that both Paizo and AoN value each other and the community. There is light at the end of the tunnel --- and this time it's not a freight train.

[NerdOver9000]

Well, this is about exactly what I expected out of the great team at Paizo and AoN! Glad to see this more or less resolved. Looking forward to many more years of Pathfinder!

[Gorgo Primus]

Not ideal, but I'm good with this. Hopefully this has been a useful learning experience for AON's team and Paizo doesn't go out of their way to step it a 3rd time this half-decade. Thanks Maya!

[Atomic Twills]

I’m glad a compromise could be reached. I hope that the CUP artwork will makeup for what is being lost in this change.

I’m still extremely disappointed in the way that Jim and Paizo handled this whole thing. Many (most?) in the community consider AoN an absolutely integral part of running and playing Pathfinder. AoN simply makes the game better, and the community feeling generated by Paizo’s partnership with AoN has always been special. Choosing to abruptly end that partnership was such an incredibly tone-deaf move that came so far out of left field, and it resulted in a lot of us feeling more than a little stunned and betrayed. It very much gave an impression that Paizo was pulling away from the community in general and it felt like a slap in the face to the VOLUNTEERS at AoN (who put so much unpaid time and effort into making this game better for all of us) in particular.

I hope such moves in the future will be made with more thoughtfulness, foresight, and community engagement BEFORE being finalized. The community around Pathfinder has always been one of its greatest strengths, and I would hate to see that sense of camaraderie between Paizo and the community be further eroded.

[xellos]

Great to see this type of collaborative agreement. Thank you for your efforts here.

[BotBrain]

This still seems excessively pointless to me but I'm glad there's a reasonable enough solution in place. I hope we can eventually reach a point in the future where all non-CUP art can be restored.

However, thanks for all your work Maya!

[Maya Coleman]

Atomic Twills wrote:

I’m glad a compromise could be reached. I hope that the CUP artwork will makeup for what is being lost in this change.

I’m still extremely disappointed in the way that Jim and Paizo handled this whole thing. Many (most?) in the community consider AoN an absolutely integral part of running and playing Pathfinder. AoN simply makes the game better, and the community feeling generated by Paizo’s partnership with AoN has always been special. Choosing to abruptly end that partnership was such an incredibly tone-deaf move, that came so far out of left field, resulted in a lot of us feeling more than a little stunned and betrayed. It very much gave an impression that Paizo was pulling away from the community in general and it felt like a slap in the face to the VOLUNTEERS at AoN (who put so much unpaid time and effort into making this game better for all of us) in particular.

I hope such moves in the future will be made with more thoughtfulness, foresight, and community engagement BEFORE being finalized. The community around Pathfinder has always been one of its greatest strengths, and I would hate to see that sense of camaraderie between Paizo and the community be further eroded.

Thank you for being honest with your feedback then and now, Atomic Twills! It only helps us get better!

[Maya Coleman]

BotBrain wrote:

This still seems excessively pointless to me but I'm glad there's a reasonable enough solution in place. I hope we can eventually reach a point in the future where all non-CUP art can be restored.

However, thanks for all your work Maya!

I'm doing my best, and so are we all! Our community is important to us, and I take my role as your champion very seriously!

[LoreMonger13]

Glad that an arrangement could be reached that works for everyone involved! AoN is an incredible resource and I'm happy that there will still be support for them, even if on a more informal (albeit still official!) basis.

Definitely looking forward to the expansion to the CUP, too! Hoping that at least one or two illustrations for each Ancestry will be incorporated, as I think that's pretty important for onboarding new players and helping to inform character concepts.

Seconding a big thanks to Maya especially for being a world-class tank and mediator, and really hope you have a nice, relaxing weekend to make up for this week and to rest up for Gen-Con!

[A Tailor]

I've been fairly outspoken about this situation and what actions I believe should have been taken, but overall I'm happy with the way things have been handled in the aftermath. It's reassuring to see Paizo take a willingness to hear the criticism and to hash out this new agreement quickly. I don't like that things ended up going this way ultimately, but I am also not in the business of scorning better in pursuit of perfect.

Despite my criticisms, everyone at Paizo still makes and has made one of my favorite games. One of the few worlds that has dared to be as kaleidoscopic as ours. One of the few communites that I truly enjoy being a part of, even when it isn't pretty or convenient. Overall, I'm just glad Paizo was willing and able to do something actionable in light of the outpour of support for AoN. It's not a situation without nuance and I do think there are still criticism that can be levied at both parties involved, but I am not the best equipped to engage in those discussions and there are better times to have them.

Right now, I am happy to enjoy the relief of an amicable conclusion. Thanks to everyone at Paizo for their time and their willingness to hear my comments out and of those with views similar to mine. I am reminded why I buy your books with a smile on my face.

Thanks to Paizo, AoN, but also specifically Maya and Jim.

[Sebastian Hirsch]

I wish we had gotten to this point without the drama but.. it happened, I hope we can be spared the next one. I think this was the best available solution considering the starting point.

Paizo adding more to CUP and making it easier to find out what is in there is going to be very helpful, I am looking forward to see how that develops.

[Leahcim]

Honestly, this is good news and a great compromise that supports all. Nice work on both sides.

[Driftbourne]

Seems like a fair compromise. I think having all the art under the CUP is a great move. Looking forward to seeing what art gets added to the CUP. It makes sense to get rid of the old commercial license if it's not actually being used that way.

[Paul Watson]

Maya Coleman wrote:

worldhopper wrote:

Hooray! Thank you for listening to community feedback and taking the time to come to a better arrangement. (And an extra thank you, Maya, for moderating all of this! I'm sure it was a lot of work.)

Of course! Thank YOU for being honest about how you felt about this! I'll always be here /asnonthreateningaspossiblebecauseirealizethatsoundsterrifying

Is this a preview of 13 Omens?

“Maya is always present in the room, always waiting, always watching. And when she feels you are ready, she will turn her full attention upon you. No one can say what happens after that for none that have drawn Maya’s attention emerge unchanged.”

[Greg K.]

Glad to see progress has been made! Thank you for the update!

[StarlingSweeter]

While I don't think this outcome is perfect, good compromises seldom are. What I am the most happy about is the preservation of a relationship that I consider absolutely essential to pathfinder's identity. I think that mattered more then the art and early pdfs. I hope that this event has cemented just how important the archives are in the eyes of the community and that further communication and decisions regarding the relationship between them and the company will be taken with respective weight, formality, and consideration.

Wishing paizo and archives the best moving forward.

[Dr. Aspects]

Ah, finally.

Not quite the perfect solution but this seems to me to be significantly more fair than what we had been hearing before.

Thank you for your hard work, Paizo and AoN teams. All of you. Maya is the most visible and deserves all the praise xe gets but I know this is a team effort and I want to extend my gratitude further. You listened to us, even as we berated you and each other and came out of this better for it.

[TheFinish]

As I expressed my displeasure before it is only fair I pop in to say I'm glad the two parties could reach an agreement, even if it's not what we had before.

[polymynia]

Gee, it's almost like the decision to sever AoN never should have been considered at all. It's nice that you are somewhat walking it back as a company, but given the outcry and the possible/actual impact to your sales and profit, I am not surprised. I also don't see anything in there that comes from Jim where he apologizes for literally throwing AoN under the bus as a part of his former posting. I also think that putting such an emphasis on the CUP is fine...if I believed anything under the CUP was safe. Seems like I recall something about Paizo themselves considering removing the CUP entirely not to long ago....hmm.

[nanophreak]

This has all been unpleasant and I hope this is the end of whatever pressures and circumstances kicked off this move. Though this is a vast improvement on the previous announcement, it is still a net loss.

No more art will make understanding and prepping monsters (especially in VTT) more difficult. Whatever this new CUP art plan is, having it out and in place BEFORE pulling the trigger on this would have been easier to swallow.

That said I am extremely glad to hear that AoN will be getting books in advance of street, that will save the volunteers a lot of stress and work. AoN could not exist without those volunteers, and there's currently nothing that obligates them to keep the website running other than goodwill. Making their lives more difficult directly threatened the stability of an incredible resource unique to this system.

For that reason, I am extremely glad to see Paizo recognizing the value of AoN and accommodating them with a less formal agreement and advance copies. I hope someday there will be a full restoration of partnership.

That Paizo continues to listen to the community and make moves that are in the interest of players and volunteers rather than chasing what makes the most money is what makes supporting them worth doing.

Personally, I will be comfortable resuming my patronage of Paizo products based on this announcement.

[TOZ]

*ignores conspiracy thoughts of this always being the original goal and previous statements being a show to make this palatable*

[magnuskn]

Excellent, I hope we can put this entire thing behind us now.

[SOLDIER-1st]

Blog wrote:

Lore and flavor text changes on the Archives of Nethys that are required under the Community Use Policy are expected to be minimal, if any are required at all.

This is the only part I particularly care about. Lore is vital. It'd be ideal if it all stayed.

[Maya Coleman]

Paul Watson wrote:

Is this a preview of 13 Omens?

“Maya is always present in the room, always waiting, always watching. And when she feels you are ready, she will turn her full attention upon you. No one can say what happens after that for none that have drawn Maya’s attention emerge unchanged.”

This is hilarious, but also I use xe/xem/they/them pronouns!

[pauljathome]

While this is excellent news and to be applauded I can't help but feel that it was pretty darn foolish of Paizo to not do this in the first place rather than having to be pushed into it by the "unexpected" (as in, totally and utterly expected and completely predictable) fan backlash. Maybe they regain most of the goodwill that they lost but I doubt they get it all back.

I, for one, am certainly feeling a considerable amount of disdain of the management team at Paizo right now. This just seems like a totally unnecessary own goal to me

[Arkat]

This is a good compromise solution.

Well done, Jim and Blake!

[Goilveig]

I think this is a step in the right direction for sure, but I think it will all come down to how much art is allowed under the CUP.

As a GM, if I have to go dig through source books for every token I want to print for my table, it will add a tremendous amount of prep time. (We play a physical game, but I print circular tokens for all monsters and key NPCs).

It's not that I don't own the books and have access to the art via the PDFs, it's that Nethys is easily searchable in seconds.

Monster art is my main concern.

[Mark Moreland]

Goilveig wrote:

As a GM, if I have to go dig through source books for every token I want to print for my table, it will add a tremendous amount of prep time. (We play a physical game, but I print circular tokens for all monsters and key NPCs).

Have you used PDFs from our pawn products or the VTT token packs we offer for this sort of thing? If we were to offer you the perfect product that would meet your needs, what would that be (taking "all the art just being free online" off the table as an option, for the sake of discussion)?

[Goilveig]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Goilveig wrote:

As a GM, if I have to go dig through source books for every token I want to print for my table, it will add a tremendous amount of prep time. (We play a physical game, but I print circular tokens for all monsters and key NPCs).

Have you used PDFs from our pawn products or the VTT token packs we offer for this sort of thing? If we were to offer you the perfect product that would meet your needs, what would that be (taking "all the art just being free online" off the table as an option, for the sake of discussion)?

I have not tried either of those. Rather than stand-up pawns, I print 1" (or 2" / 3" for large / huge) tokens using an online token sheet maker (https://rpgportrait.app/free-tools/token-sheet). Unlike pawns intended to stand up on the map, these end up laser printed, cut out, and attached to wooden discs to lay flat on the board, so the "perfect" solution would be a square aspect ratio image fairly tightly cropped.

For the VTT token packs, would it be easy to get the art out of the tokens and printed onto paper? I'm not actually using a VTT.

I admit it's a little bit of a hard sell to say I could buy yet another product when I already subscribe to every major Pathfinder book you publish and have pretty much everything ever printed for 2E. It kind of feels like being nickled and dimed to pay for something I already feel that I've paid for, but I suppose if the art was already in a good aspect ratio and well-cropped, that *would* save me time I'm spending now cleaning up art I grab off of Nethys.

I think for me it would mostly come down to it being quick to find and print the art I need. I wouldn't be totally opposed to paying for it (although I'd grumble a tiny bit). If this actually had all the AP-specific art I need, though, that would definitely save time.

[Mark Moreland]

Thank you for participating in my impromptu sample-size-of-one market research survey. Getting feedback from GMs and players of how they use our various products and offerings is invaluable in trying to develop new ways to meet their needs, so I appreciate you taking the time.

[Tehanaru]

Honestly this compromise is fine! I was very upset about the initial kerfluffle, but as far as things go now I'm satisfied.

I assume there was some good reason for Paizo having to make changes, and I imagine this version gives them what they need, while also respecting their 8 year relationship with the amazingly dedicated fans that make up the AoN team.

I would love for the next company policy announcement to be one that doesn't spark community rage. Paizo has done those! I loved their handling of the establishment of the Union.

Here's to many years of great games, and a very healthy Paizo that has a great relationship with its fanbase.

[Azothath]

okay! I thought we'd get here after a few gyrations.
I knew Paizo had to get their CUP act together but Maya already said that. Thus, as always, things to do.

[Alarith]

This is the way!

[The Raven Black]

This is good. Too bad it took all the unnecessary drama to get there.

None of us emerges unscathed from this. I had somewhat heated arguments with people I often play PFS with on whether the blame was rather on one side or the other.

We did not need this.

Thank you Maya for being as awesome as ever through this. Your positive attitude is definitely appreciated.

[Mark Stratton]

polymynia wrote:

Gee, it's almost like the decision to sever AoN never should have been considered at all. It's nice that you are somewhat walking it back as a company, but given the outcry and the possible/actual impact to your sales and profit, I am not surprised. I also don't see anything in there that comes from Jim where he apologizes for literally throwing AoN under the bus as a part of his former posting. I also think that putting such an emphasis on the CUP is fine...if I believed anything under the CUP was safe. Seems like I recall something about Paizo themselves considering removing the CUP entirely not to long ago....hmm.

Nothing was ever going to happen to AON except the loss of some art and not getting some stuff early. No matter how much people either misunderstood what happened or deliberately tried to convince people it was worse than it was, AoN is still pretty much in the same place they were before.

[chiiika]

TOZ wrote:

*ignores conspiracy thoughts of this always being the original goal and previous statements being a show to make this palatable*

I do kinda agree with this; but again could be done waaaaay more tactfully if this is a endgoal (and I do think one that is give or take, reasonable)

[Azothath]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Thank you for participating in my impromptu sample-size-of-one market research survey. Getting feedback from GMs and players of how they use our various products and offerings is invaluable in trying to develop new ways to meet their needs, so I appreciate you taking the time.

I do own and use various PF Pawns and products and under personal use create my own 150-600dpi squarish tokens, maps, graphic elements, for my games. I think the tokens are fine for what they are but I'd ask you limit duplicates to 2 as people can always print another page. The color markers are too small to see at 3 ft and I'd expect people to mark throwaway tokens with identifiers. One could print paper wraps for fiberboard backing (or use other tokens) that fit the bases using a different layout. I know die cuts aren't cheap and have a set layout.

I think people fall into two camps - 1) face/bust/headshot pics showing emotion, and 2) full body pics at close to scale with a spacer for the base.

I'm also reminded of dress-up Barbie with various tack on outfits, armor, weapons, and shields and I've seen apps that do just that. Hmmmm...

[chiiika]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Goilveig wrote:

As a GM, if I have to go dig through source books for every token I want to print for my table, it will add a tremendous amount of prep time. (We play a physical game, but I print circular tokens for all monsters and key NPCs).

Have you used PDFs from our pawn products or the VTT token packs we offer for this sort of thing? If we were to offer you the perfect product that would meet your needs, what would that be (taking "all the art just being free online" off the table as an option, for the sake of discussion)?

I have the VTT token pack (Monster Core / NPC Core), but extracting the art from the VTT token pack does need a bit of finagling and iirc that is not sorted for other use as well. This is actually my first time hearing that Paizo have a pawn product! (mostly I don’t actually prep that much on IRL sesh and fwiw having standins do help but I don’t print that much 3d figures out so pawn product may be smth I’m interested in if making tokens outta them is easy.

EDIT: just saw the pawn packs, the issue is that I’m overseas and thus shipping is expensive (that’s why I have pdfs but not the books); would like a pdf version of pawn packs such that I can print out on my own and work on it

EDIT EDIT: oh they’re in a really weird place (and not in the main pawn box lineup but found them; will buy em MC1 and 2 coz it fits a lot of stuff

[BigHatMarisa]

A shame we couldn't have the cake and eat it, too, but this is a perfectly fine resolution, and one that I mostly expected would happen. Thank you for the public statement; I'll be reinstating my subscriptions at my earliest convenience, as promised.

Hopefully this means that art in the CUP will be updated a little more regularly, as well? It seemed like before this the CUP was kinda haphazardly maintained - hopefully no offense to those who were keeping track of it, that was simply what I assumed given Maya's posts about it - and it'd be nice to see it updated with more pieces!

[I grok do u]

*Break out the guitar for Kumbaya!*

Honestly, nice to see positive reactions despite disappointments. Big thanks to Blake for keeping us informed and working hard to keep AoN as we love it. I appreciate Jim agreeing to a more informal agreement, one more appropriate to the niche that AoN fills for the community.

Social media's impact on snowballing feedback and heightened emotions is astounding. To Maya's efforts to keep things respectful: "Praise them with the great praise."

Even if things got a bit heated, still good to see the passion for the game and those who make it possible! Thanks to everyone sharing their insights and support.

I would also like to thank the Academy... Wait, oops that's the wrong speech.

I would like to have seen an option to switch to watermarked art to discourage misuse, but can understand how this approach is the cleanest to avoid Imperial legal entanglements.

[Goilveig]

Mark Moreland wrote:

Thank you for participating in my impromptu sample-size-of-one market research survey. Getting feedback from GMs and players of how they use our various products and offerings is invaluable in trying to develop new ways to meet their needs, so I appreciate you taking the time.

No problem! Here's a little more info about the current workflow I have (or had) including some of the friction points. If there were products that reduced this friction, I would be interested.

Right now I'm running Strength of Thousands (and at the rate my group is going, we probably have three more years of that AP). When I make tokens for a set of encounters I:

* Look up all the monsters I need for the next few encounters in the adventure path PDF.
* Search the AP PDF to see if I need the same monsters later on in the book; if I find I will need more copies of a given token it's easier to do that now versus print more later
* Look up each monster on AoN to grab the image
* Sort the images by monster size (tiny-medium / large / huge) because my token tool can only print one size on each page
* If no image available (e.g. an AP-specific monster) grab the art from the PDF
* Crop non-square pieces of art, or art that has a very wide view to be more focused on the subject
* Put all the images and the counts I need into the web tool, and print this to my printer
* Cut out the tokens and affix them to a wooden disk. (I have a 1" paper punch that quickly handles the standard-size tokens)

If there were products that would simplify some of the earlier steps / remove friction, that would be something I would consider purchasing. I know my physical tokens approach is not super common, although I am not the only GM to do this.

[Powers128]

A fine compromise. Thanks.