Any chance of a book with a lot more weapons, gear and tech in it? I'd like to see a lot more augementations, cybernetics and such. Like adding claws, teeth, tail and other such things to an ancestry that doesn't have it should be possible with tech and such. I know in 1E there was a lot of grafts and things.
(We don't know when it'll be out, just "later than GenCon" so far. Late 2026 is also possible.)
Yeah I am holding out some hope for it being the fall/winter release. I can see them wanting it to be a gen con release but I am not sure holding onto it that long is going to be viable.
I could use a new book about enhancements and outerworldy forces... so we got get back the Biohacker and Vanguard.
The Biohacker could get Evolutionist materials, while the Vanguard retains entropy manipulation, alongside both Barbarian and Guardian abilities. The Vanguard could also be the first SF class with Legendary Proficiency with "all simple and martial weapons, plus unarmed". The Operative only has Legendary... for guns, or "all one-handed melee weapons and unarmed attacks with the agile or finesse traits" if you're a Striker.
The Nanocyte... feels like it would work better as an archetype, like the Mind Smith, and the Precog, well, has been folded into the Witchwarper.
There's also the new Paizo catalog for 2026. I haven't read it all yet; it's 140 pages, but it looks like it goes to December 2026. It's a free PDF or free print copy + shipping cost.
I would really like to see a Gods and Magic like book. Mystics getting the ability to take Domain spells back, classic gods returning, etc...
I kinda like Mystic being more separate from the gods. Cleric is still playable, and you can get a divine connection already if you'd like. I hope future Mystic options go for a more occult/primal witchy style. I like the Nightsisters from Star Wars and would love to see more of that.
If anything I'd like to see divine options be explored for the Witchwarper first. Being disconnected from reality in a strange way might give a person a perspective similar to the gods and you could lean into a more eldritch old gods-style take.
After reading Galactic Magic, and seeing the sort of fun things they did with Asmodeus and Cayden Cailean, I'd definitely love to see other iconic Pathfinder gods get ported to a dedicated god book. Plus, I wanna see what Lambatuin, Meyel, The Newborn, and Zon-Shelyn look like.
I swear it's been mentioned that after Tech Core, with Technomancer & Mechanic, comes out their gonna focus on new classes for a while. It'll be interesting to see what ideas they have in mind. Sci-Fi is much less defined than traditional fantasy.
I could see some kind of Psychic class for characters like the biotics of Mass Effect and the dozens of psychics across pulpy sci-fi stories. That might step on the Witchwarper's toes though, which I assume is why precog got turned into a subclass for it.
With the Tech classes being so focused on, well, tech, I think we're gonna get something wildly opposite next. Maybe something where you have an alien companion? I can think of a few characters who's gimmick is they have a rare pet.
Those two cases would probably be unlikely, unless there is a way to make them work very distinctly from the psychic and Ranger that already exist in Pathfinder. Due to compatibility, Starfinder 2E core classes lost a lot of capabilities from 1E because Pathfinder already did those aspects. So I am not holding out much hope for classes that are Pathfinder class, but in space getting drafted without a pretty big departure from what their 2e equivalent can already do.
A ranger for example can take a shotolashu or a squox as animal companions already, which are aliens, is trained with the Shirren Eye rifle, can benefit from Favored Terrain on any terrain that matches, even if it's off planet.
But an example of something that is sufficiently away from a ranger could probably be a performance animal trainer, like a hybrid between bard and ranger that instead of being a survivalist, puts on a show with trained animals, and has skills more geared toward performance than survival.
As another example, psychics used to be covered by a range of subclasses for the Mystic in 1E, but were not put forward in 2E, as psychic was already a thing.
But, a fundamentally different kind of psychic than the psychic could apply. For example, there are martial psychics like the monk, solarion, and vanguard, which are based on mental conditioning to manipulate the world around you with force of will. As the monk harnesses their ki, the solarion harnesses the power of stars, and the vanguard harnesses entropy. A return of the mesmerist could provide an arcane approach, while a jedi-inspired class could also provide another type of martial psychic.
I just hope we get the Starfinder planar book that we never got in Starfinder 1e before edition had to end suddenly :'D I think I remember hearing it was planned at some point, but hey we can still get a 2e one and it won't need as much rewriting due to remastering now...
I just hope we get the Starfinder planar book that we never got in Starfinder 1e before edition had to end suddenly :'D I think I remember hearing it was planned at some point, but hey we can still get a 2e one and it won't need as much rewriting due to remastering now...
Yeah, I don’t think anyone who understands my username will be surprised that I want this too. This is a huge desire for me. Though I do kinda how to get my own version of it onto infinite first XD
Not entirely unrelated, I also want to see that faction guide that got lost in the acceleration of 2e to come to fruition too.
I just hope we get the Starfinder planar book that we never got in Starfinder 1e before edition had to end suddenly :'D I think I remember hearing it was planned at some point, but hey we can still get a 2e one and it won't need as much rewriting due to remastering now...
I also remember hearing a Starfinder planar book had been planned for SF1e. If the OGL mess hadn't happened, it would have made sense to have a planar book after all the Drift Crisis APs that give us a little taste of planar travel in Starfinder. Plus, most of the other FTL engines in SF1e were planar drives.
Didn't a lot of the faction guide make it into the Galaxy Guide?
Galaxy Guide has 7 core factions; there's room for a lot more.
6, actually. But Absalom Station is bringing 4 more (Stewards, Aspis Consortium, Eyes-Wide Agency, and Ghost Couriers). I suspect the Faction Guide will be broken out among a number of new releases in the coming years.
Didn't a lot of the faction guide make it into the Galaxy Guide?
Galaxy Guide has 7 core factions; there's room for a lot more.
6, actually. But Absalom Station is bringing 4 more (Stewards, Aspis Consortium, Eyes-Wide Agency, and Ghost Couriers). I suspect the Faction Guide will be broken out among a number of new releases in the coming years.
Opps, the 7th in the index is Minor Factions, which adds another 10 factions with only 1/6 page write up vs 3 pages. So, there's still room to expand on these in a full faction book.
Galaxy Guide minor factions
Akashic Society, Aspis Consortium, Corpse Fleet, Deep Cultures Institute, Eyeswide Agency, Frozen Trove, Mechanized Adherents of Apotheosis, Skyfire Legion, Stewards, Zeizerer Munitions, Zo! Media.
So looks like in the Absalom Station book (Stewards, Aspis Consortium, Eyes-Wide Agency) will be geeting a deeper dive. If thats the case then, I think you're right that Faction Guide will be broken out among a number of new releases in the coming years.
Didn't a lot of the faction guide make it into the Galaxy Guide?
There's stuff there, but its a three page spread for each. Presumably the originally book would have dedicated a full chapter to each of them, which is what I would like. Don't think it will come any time soon because of the Galaxy Guide, but hopefully it (or a book on each like we've got in Pathfinder) is still on the radar.
I would really like to see a Gods and Magic like book. Mystics getting the ability to take Domain spells back, classic gods returning, etc...
I kinda like Mystic being more separate from the gods. Cleric is still playable, and you can get a divine connection already if you'd like. I hope future Mystic options go for a more occult/primal witchy style. I like the Nightsisters from Star Wars and would love to see more of that.
If anything I'd like to see divine options be explored for the Witchwarper first. Being disconnected from reality in a strange way might give a person a perspective similar to the gods and you could lean into a more eldritch old gods-style take.
Cleric isn't "still playable," or at least shouldn't be considered as such. It's a Pathfinder option. The Starfinder GM core suggests making all of those at minimum Uncommon so it's already far from plug and play, some GMs may rightly flatly refuse to allow Pathfinder options for balance concerns and/or tonal issues, and as far as I know it's not available in Society play at present. Also, Mystic is explicitly primed as the game's premiere religious caster, largely because right now they're the only Starfinder native divine caster period, and also, the Iconic Mystic is one. Mystics need to wear the hat of kinda-space-Cleric because we don't really have alternatives, and even if we did there should definitely be a core class that can do that. If anything it's wild that Mystics lost domain spells in the full release to begin with. That said I wouldn't mind also seeing Divine Witchwarper support, they just definitely shouldn't be the de facto space Cleric because it just doesn't fit.
Cleric isn't "still playable," or at least shouldn't be considered as such. It's a Pathfinder option. The Starfinder GM core suggests making all of those at minimum Uncommon so it's already far from plug and play, some GMs may rightly flatly refuse to allow Pathfinder options for balance concerns and/or tonal issues, and as far as I know it's not available in Society play at present.
This is refreshing! I feel like I get told "we don't need X in Starfinder, just use Y from PF," a lot when I pitch things to people. I'm glad there are others out there want to see Starfinder grow as it's own product and not just be Pathfinder's little space spin-off.
DMurnett wrote:
Also, Mystic is explicitly primed as the game's premiere religious caster, largely because right now they're the only Starfinder native divine caster period, and also, the Iconic Mystic is one. Mystics need to wear the hat of kinda-space-Cleric because we don't really have alternatives, and even if we did there should definitely be a core class that can do that.
Well, I'd say they are definitely the default option right now. That can be a heavy burden for a player interested in playing a Mystic but not wanting to be the party's designated healer bot. I would love to see more options for healing in the future. I think non-magical healing would be a great focus for a 2E bio-hacker. At the very least it should be one of the specialities for them. I would also like to see what a divine caster without a focus on healing would look like. That's what'd I'd want to see out of a hypothetical divine Witchwarper.
DMurnett wrote:
If anything it's wild that Mystics lost domain spells in the full release to begin with. That said I wouldn't mind also seeing Divine Witchwarper support, they just definitely shouldn't be the de facto space Cleric because it just doesn't fit.
I read somewhere that the design philosophy for 2E was to make the SF classes different from the default PF classes. There were definitely people who wanted more from Soldier and Operative than just being Space!Fighter and Space!Rogue. Ditching domain spells was, I assume, done to make Mystic feel less like a Space!Cleric and more like it's own class that can stand on it's own two feet. I just don't think they really went far enough in that regard. I definitely feel it should be the number one Healing class in SF, but the Divine Bond Feat, Rhythm Connection, and Xeno-Druid Bond hold the Mystic back from being truly independent of Cleric, Bard, and Druid.
Witchwarper doesn't really have this problem because the offensive casters don't have anything in common as specific as magical healing. Dealing damage feels much too universal to me to associate with specifically, like healing can.
Technomancer is a sort of Space!Wizard, but in a way I like. There is a very satisfying narrative "evolution" in the classes Wizard, Alchemist, and Technomancer that doesn't exist anywhere else. Wizards are on the cutting edge of learned magic in the default vaguely medieval fantasy setting. As time advances and worlds become more industrial we see Alchemists become more common with their mixtures and gizmos. Finally, in a modern/sci-fi world the Technomancer comes in with their holograms and magic hacking. Mystic isn't different enough to escape this comparison, like Witchwarper, but also isn't similar enough to have the satisfying "evolution of concept" from Technomancer either.
Honestly, I'm curious if Paizo will. So far the Starfriends have been respecting Pathfinder's niches and avoided stepping on their toes, so until we see Starfinder really making "Pathfinder concept, but in space" classes, I've got to assume that they will likely continue this trend until proven otherwise. And last they talked of it being a seperate game I feel was while it was still in development, I rarely see that rhetoric post game from devs. We don't see soldiers rage. Psychics aren't a subtype of mystic anymore. Nor are champions a subtype of mystic. rangers are no longer a subtype of soldier, etc, etc.
Also doesn't really help that during the Twitch streams, the speakers are EXTREMELY gung ho about mixing Starfinder rules into Pathfinder games and vise versa.
My honest thought on the matter is right now it's quite plausible the separation between systems is likely more for locking the errata and balance down for organized play with Starfinder, with a slow rollout of Pathfinder stuff over time once the kinks in Starfinder have properly been dealt with. Hard enough to balance Starfinder against itself when Pathfinder is thrown into the picture, but once that problem has been solved, the numbers of the system are in line. Because, let's be honest. Starfriends are doing great! But there are a lot of errors and some particularly juicy edges to this game that might need to be dulled back into acceptability. They are finding their footing, slowly and surely, and if they themselves are mixing the chocolate and peanut butter in their home games, I doubt they'd want the separation to be a long-term thing for the society players.
Plus, I have doubts Paizo wants to compete with itself. Look at the list of Pathfinder books, then look at the list of Starfinder books. What do you see? Pathfinder is the dominant IP. I'm sure Paizo wants Starfinder to succeed, and frankly, success is not gonna come from telling people their Pathfinder books shouldn't matter. Especially when they paid so much for them. You're gonna have a hard time convincing Pathfinder players to convert if you tell them they cannot bring their Pathfinder ideas in. I've got a player that ran a runelord wizard in a one-shot. For Guilt of the Grave World, I have an Alchemist and a Monk participating. Our Solarion in the same game wants to see Risk and Rewards get released so they can apply the Daredevil archetype, however that might look (after getting to play a daredevil in a playtest one-shot). I've seen someone jokingly ask if they can play a human fighter, and you know what? The joke aside, it's nice to tell them, "Actually, you CAN play a human fighter. The system supports it." Players enjoy knowing they have these options. And it consistently brings smiles to their faces to let them know their hybrid idea does work.
Also, Mystic is explicitly primed as the game's premiere religious caster, largely because right now they're the only Starfinder native divine caster period, and also, the Iconic Mystic is one. Mystics need to wear the hat of kinda-space-Cleric because we don't really have alternatives, and even if we did there should definitely be a core class that can do that.
I'd say are about as much a religious caster as a sorcerer is. Only Shadow and Healing mystics even get divine casting. They are essentially a sorcerer who gets their power by communion rather than blood, and uses wisdom rather than charisma.
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What's amusing (at least to me) is that Solarian is viewed as the "Jedi" class of Starfinder, when the Mystic does a better job of capturing what a Jedi is. The Force is basically a Mystic Connection!
What's amusing (at least to me) is that Solarian is viewed as the "Jedi" class of Starfinder, when the Mystic does a better job of capturing what a Jedi is. The Force is basically a Mystic Connection!
The Solarian is a Jedi in the sense that they have a magic weapon like a light saber. The Jedi, and Sith, are very physically focused groups that can also do some magic stuff on the side. I can imagine a Solarian casting a spell, but a Mystic pulling a melee weapon out feels more off for some reason.
It's getting late, and I'm feeling sarcastic. Be warned!
Do we really need future books? I'm not against time travel in Starfinder, but there's so much going on in Starfinder right now, I don't see Paizo running out of ideas for the current timeline.
We do have a well establish dissant past thanks to Pathfinder, so maybe there is room for a distant future too.
Maybe we've already time-traveled in Strfinder, but we landed in another Gap and just don't remember what we experienced in the future.
So, with the second anniversary of the release of the book, The Gap is only a few days away, maybe we'll get The Gap Remastered!
Cleric isn't "still playable," or at least shouldn't be considered as such. It's a Pathfinder option. The Starfinder GM core suggests making all of those at minimum Uncommon so it's already far from plug and play, some GMs may rightly flatly refuse to allow Pathfinder options for balance concerns and/or tonal issues, and as far as I know it's not available in Society play at present.
This is refreshing! I feel like I get told "we don't need X in Starfinder, just use Y from PF," a lot when I pitch things to people. I'm glad there are others out there want to see Starfinder grow as it's own product and not just be Pathfinder's little space spin-off.
Starfinder must grow into its own thing, true, but saying that should not imply that PF2 things are not available. Bookwise, Alien Core is good but not sufficient in my opinion for a wildland exploration adventure without pilfering from PF2 Monster Core for example.
In a world of magical academies and universities, mystics and witchwarper makes limited sense as their main teachers and employees. Sciences and technology are there to truly empower clerics and wizards and even druids. And as such SF2 seems very cleric ready. Technomancer will definitly fill a niche but they are more magical engineers than pure magical scientists.
And in reverse, mystics can be "oracles without drama" and as such are the more PF2-ready class.
An "Allfinder Player Core" that gives subclasses and feats for PF2 classes in SF2 and SF2 classes for PF2 could be a nice book for about everyone.
It's getting late, and I'm feeling sarcastic. Be warned!So, with the second anniversary of the release of the book, The Gap is only a few days away, maybe we'll get The Gap Remastered!
On one of the Paizo Lives they said they're not doing a second print run of The GAP this year (which was relevant because I think puchases were limited to one per print run for it.) Take that with a grain of salt since it is, after all, an April Fools joke.
On the note of "Allfinder," I think it's wishful thinking on my part, but with the 2E system showing the convergence of Pathfinder and Starfinder, I kind of hope that 3E in a half decade or so will just be made from the ground up to accomodate both halves of the setting readily.
This is not to say Pathfinder should have ready access to tech, or that Starfinder cannot have some Starfinder-exclusive classes. But with all the wisdom we are gathering by people mixing the two systems, by the time 3E comes around, the devs will have pretty good ideas where the actual path of the walls should be.
For example, one of the big points where Path and Star differ is guns. Not for Pathfinder's lack of guns, but for it's different handling of guns. Where Pathfinder has guns with extra customization slots, and shotguns deal extra damage around the main target, and pathfinder requires an action to remove a magazine, draw a magazine, and install a magazine. But Starfinder has a different modification system for guns as a whole, and shotguns are 45-degree area cone weapons, but Pathfinder gives magazine loading the same ease as loading a crossbow. 2E will teach us all where the standardizations should lie, and 3E will be where they can be established, and where the true division-paths should spread from.
Cleric isn't "still playable," or at least shouldn't be considered as such. It's a Pathfinder option. The Starfinder GM core suggests making all of those at minimum Uncommon so it's already far from plug and play, some GMs may rightly flatly refuse to allow Pathfinder options for balance concerns and/or tonal issues, and as far as I know it's not available in Society play at present.
This is refreshing! I feel like I get told "we don't need X in Starfinder, just use Y from PF," a lot when I pitch things to people. I'm glad there are others out there want to see Starfinder grow as it's own product and not just be Pathfinder's little space spin-off.
Starfinder must grow into its own thing, true, but saying that should not imply that PF2 things are not available. Bookwise, Alien Core is good but not sufficient in my opinion for a wildland exploration adventure without pilfering from PF2 Monster Core for example.
In a world of magical academies and universities, mystics and witchwarper makes limited sense as their main teachers and employees. Sciences and technology are there to truly empower clerics and wizards and even druids. And as such SF2 seems very cleric ready. Technomancer will definitly fill a niche but they are more magical engineers than pure magical scientists.
And in reverse, mystics can be "oracles without drama" and as such are the more PF2-ready class.
An "Allfinder Player Core" that gives subclasses and feats for PF2 classes in SF2 and SF2 classes for PF2 could be a nice book for about everyone.
I do ultimately think that the two systems would be better off a fair bit closer, and by god would I love a crossover supplement, but Pathfinder is not Starfinder and vice versa! We should be careful with too much crossbleed because these are different systems for different genres. Sister systems but different systems. Seeing elves and holy priests wandering around Absalom Station makes sense in the strict sense, it does not contradict established lore, but it is just... Off. Lashuntas and Mystics simply fit better in the aesthetic, unless the aesthetic you're going for is explicitly "smash them together like action figures," which is valid and also awesome but it should still only be an aesthetic that the systems can support.
More importantly though, I'm not the one deciding that Pathfinder options (especially classes) are off-limits in SF, Paizo is. I did my research this time, Starfidner Society (2e) explicitly states that all Pathfinder options are disallowed unless a boon gives access (plus a very small exception for equipment from Golarion Survivor), and at present there are a grand total of seven boons that allow any sort of access to a Pathfinder option. One for each of the non-human core ancestries from PC1, and one for access to Moster Core's monster list for summoning spells. On the Pathfinder side, we got limited time playtest participation rewards for Starfinder ancestries and nothing else so far.
Now I'm ready to concede that society play is different from home games and the rules for availability shouldn't be considered 1:1. But for one thing I think it's fair to at least consider them reasonable guidelines, and here the implication is that crossover classes are some combination of rare, disruptive, ill-fitting, or dysfunctional enough that they should be treated with the gravitas of a Rare option. Also, crucially, Society play is a way people play the game, and it's an environment where Starfinder's anemic player options demonstrably cannot be made up for by calling in Pathfinder.
My point here isn't that space clerics specifically break Starfinder to an unfixable degree, it's that they're as reliable from a player standpoint as Siege rules. Society is a no-go, and past that it's extreme table variance. I know I'd be happy to figure out how to make it work at my tables, but I know not every GM would be. I don't think it's good that something as basic as religious casting is in this position. Thank you for coming to my TEDex talk
I feel clerics are the wrong example to use. As the difference between a holy mystic and a cleric thematically are... There are not much differences. Chk-Chk, for example, would look and act exactly the same being a cleric or a shadow mystic. In the end, Chk Chk is referred to as a priest. He wears priestly, flowing vestments, and in the end, he's a priest. His father, Keskodai, in his meet the iconics, is referred to as a priest, whose father was also a priest. I'd say you could make a better argument with a barbarian, but then you've got Obozaya walking around. Speaking of, did you know in 1E, Obozaya could get barbarian abilities? Which leads to what is next:
I mean, I get what you mean, but I think you're assuming that Starfinder is a setting that it hasn't been since the first year of publication. I've been reading a LOT of 1E of late, currently up to Interstellar Species with two more books after that before I've read the whole core. and what I've learned in it, as early as Character Operations Manual only two years after Core Rulebook, is most of the Pathfinder classes existed as subtypes of 1E classes. In the same year, we also got the Hanaken race, which were so traditionalist that they likely would have been Pathfinder classes if the system supported. You didn't play a cleric or champion, because clerics and champions existed as subclasses of mystic. You didn't play a barbarian or a monk, because barbarians and Monks existed as subtypes of soldier. Starfinder did a lot to emulate the old classes through their new class system. These classes aren't gone, they were just represented in a way the system could more easily implement. It's to the point that the classes of yore only don't exist, if you've never read beyond the Core Rulebook.
Starfinder came out in 2017. By 2019, Pathfinder stuff was being converted to Starfinder equivalence, opening the way for players to exercise Pathfinder concepts, and we are simultaneously introduced to the concept that some alien races are still stuck culturally in the past. And then, by 2022, we have the Drift Crisis, which in world caused a mass distrust of technology, and allowed the Church of Eloritu to showcase the usefulness of traditional magic to the public. So, any youths who have been thinking being a wizard or a cleric might be a useful change of pace as a result of the Drift Crisis, well they've had enough time to get a 4-year degree at the Arcanamirium in 326. Oh, and speaking of Eloritu, pretty sure most Elorituans would prefer being a wizard over a technomancer, as it is anathema to embrace technology over magic. Though I'm guessing that's why Galactic Magic also let mystics function as wizards with the Arcane connection. On top of all of that, this is a setting that from the beginning, sees countless new worlds in the vast being discovered, many of which did not even have access to technology, and would be stuck in ye olde ways before culture hits them, meaning members of their culture would be very well acquainted with old techniques, and walking around as they are getting to learn the more established galactic community. Because this isn't some Star Trek world where first-contact is saved for sufficient advancement, no. The people in Starfinder are too corrupt for that. They see a world, then imediately try to make it an ally or vassal before someone they don't like does it first. By the way, I'd also recommend reading the Starfinder Comic, Angels of the Drift. It does a lot to show how diverse the Starfinder universe is.
If we don't bring clerics forward, I would want something Divine related as several religious groups, followers of Iomedae, Abadar, and Sarenrae to name two, are major factions.
I can understand wanting to keep a bit more of a wall between the two systems, to make sure they have their own identities, but that will require engineering some incompatibility. Part of that is the ranged meta. all the martials with melee focus would not survive long in this ranged meta, especially with so many types of energy damage now fairly easily available.
I can understand wanting to keep a bit more of a wall between the two systems, to make sure they have their own identities, but that will require engineering some incompatibility. Part of that is the ranged meta. all the martials with melee focus would not survive long in this ranged meta, especially with so many types of energy damage now fairly easily available.
Yeah, if Paizo wants to do that, I agree they'd have to engineer more incompatibility to do so.
The problem is, I feel that in my experience, the "ranged meta" is illusionary until Paizo releases more content. Here's the problem with the advertised ranged meta. Starfinder weapons don't have better range than Pathfinder weapons, and don't have better damage dice than Pathfinder weapons. Having wider damage types does not actually grant any bonuses because PCs don't have weaknesses to exploit. Their only real advantage is a more efficient action economy (But this is only against crossbows and Pathfinder firearms, not against bows). The only other advantage to Starfinder is easier access to flight to attempt to fly out of melee range, but the problem is, melees get the same easy access to flight. Granted, someone with flight can still start an ambush out of range, but Paizo needs to make adventures with bigger maps. Guilt of the Grave World frankly has Pathfinder-sized maps. A Barbarian with a doshko shouldn't be struggling with such small maps. And I remember hearing one story in these forums that ranged NPCs were just getting bullied by melee with their Str to damage in practicum during the playtests. (And even if the Barbarian was grounded, and the NPC flew out of range... A barbarian has martial weapon training, they can just do as a Pathfinder barbarian does and invest in an Aucturnite Chakram to have a ranged weapon they can add Strength to. Technically not much is stopping them from using Javelins either. Otherwise, they are simply trained in using a Machine Gun or a Rotating Pistol).
Monsters are another story, sort of. GM Core mandates them being allowed a fly speed at level 3, instead of level 7 (You can buy Commercial Ultralight Wings at this level). That all creatures get at least a moderate-damage ranged attack by level -1, instead of a low-damage ranged attack by level 7. But all this really means is that even a rat has a ranged attack on par with your typical humanoid enemy like a guard. (I sound like I'm joking with the rat, but there actually is a rat). Basically all these mandates do is make it to where all encounters are ranged capable, but not necessarily ranged focused. If your melee character can fight off humanoids with bows and crossbows, they'll just as easily fight off the monsters. And by level 7, your Pathfinder Barbarian is already dealing with all the stuff the Starfinder Barbarian is dealing with. So what's left of the meta only exists from levels 1-6. While during these levels, said Barbarian has options. And that's assuming you don't have a natural fly speed. I don't think a dragonkin Barbarian would be complaining much.
Paizo would have to exaggerate the incompatibility to reach this goal: Bigger maps, better weapon ranges to make melee actually untenable. But with the state of Starfinder as it is, the ranged meta as advertised, I don't feel actually exists, yet. But we're early in the game's cycle, and Tech Core might give us options to better express that.
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moosher12 wrote:
Zoken44 wrote:
Part of that is the ranged meta. all the martials with melee focus would not survive long in this ranged meta, especially with so many types of energy damage now fairly easily available.
The problem is, I feel that in my experience, the "ranged meta" is illusionary until Paizo releases more content. Here's the problem with the advertised ranged meta. Starfinder weapons don't have better range than Pathfinder weapons, and don't have better damage dice than Pathfinder weapons.
^^^
This.
If anything, SF2e ranged weapons generally have even shorter ranges than PF2e ranged weapons and likely use smaller damage dice. For all of the supposed "ranged meta," attacking at range still feels like "plinking" until the melee combatants can get close enough to lay the smack down.
Personally, I would house-rule an increase in the SF2 damage dice for guns to put them on par with one-hand and two-hand melee weapons in the same simple, martial, advanced categories. Melee will still usually out-damage guns on a Strike (because of adding the character's Str modifier), but it will at least feel like the guns are more than a backup.
In SF2e: fire arms and ranged (non-thrown) weapons by default add your dex mod to damage (representing the greater emphasis on the precision of these ranged weapons) and Melee weapons without certain skills or feats don't add strength to damage (emphasizing the improvements in combat armor)
I think Tech Core was mentioned to get an archetype that will enable Dex to damage or something like that.
As for a more universal approach, full dex to damage can be problematic without cost, especially when mixing in Pathfinder, as abilities are not designed for it. But I have been toying with half dex to damage on finesse melee weapons in Pathfinder, which could be a start. I used to run full dex to damage, but quickly saw damage numbers of classes like Swashbuckler spiral out of control. But half dex to damage gives you numbers on par with a class that dipped Strength, and become a lot more sane. This could be a potential approach to upping Starfinder damage a bit if allowed to apply to ranged weapons. We also wanna keep some sort of reward for taking the effort to get into melee.
We also wanna keep some sort of reward for taking the effort to get into melee.
Very much this. Not only would reversing the stat that grants extra damage make doing damage in melee weaker, but also makes getting into melee more punishing because you're having to wade through more damaging fire to do so. It'd ultimately just lead to nobody ever playing a solarian.
I'd rather see damage increased on weapons across the board. I confess I've got zero idea what the sweet spot there would be, but it would at least make the high-tech guns feel deadlier, which is something I wouldn't mind seeing. As time has gone on I've been finding myself more and more leaning toward the "high-tech equipment should push the envelope a bit" camp, and I'm not sure it does that now. Pathfinder guns functionally have more upgrade opportunities than Starfinder ones do, for example, and that just doesn't feel quite right.
Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Remember, it's not "ranged meta" in the sense that "ranged is usually the better pick," it's "ranged meta" in the sense that "basically everyone else from the mindless zombies on up is going to have a ranged option, so be aware of that when building a character" - which they're definitely doing, as only about a tenth of the creatures in Alien Core don't have something with at least 30ft of range increment.
It's about the overall shape of the metagame of character builds, not the "meta pick" as in the thing that's considered the best.
I find it strange that in melee players are more than willing to take the -5/-10 MAP penalty to make multiple attacks, but I frequently see players avoiding ranged attacks beyond the first range increment because of the -2. I have seen a few rare ranged increment 2 attacks, but never seen anyone take a range 3 shot.
Almost all the PF2e weapons that have extreme ranges are not from the Player Core, so maybe Tech Core will make up the difference.
To me, ranged meta just means that in SF2e, you can have a 1st-level party where everyone has a flying ancestry, and ranged weapons won't break the game because most of the opponents in SF2e have ranged attacks. Beyond that, nothing says you can't have an all-melee or all ranged party. If you do have an all ranged party in SF2e, the GM has better options in SF2e to allow the opponents to engage that party in ranged combat and not be forced to rush into melee because it's all that creatures can do.
I see, the big advantage ranged weapons have is not doing lots of damage, it's not getting surrounded by multiple melee attackers. If the melee comes to you, step, stride, shoot. Players or GMs can do that.
For me, you have a ranged meta if there are more ranged characters than melee in the party, not if you have an all ranged party.
You don't need bigger maps for ranged-only combat, a deep trench separating sides, or being on different levels can force ranged only. If there are flyers, then add some hazard that makes flying unsafe.
Remember, it's not "ranged meta" in the sense that "ranged is usually the better pick," it's "ranged meta" in the sense that "basically everyone else from the mindless zombies on up is going to have a ranged option, so be aware of that when building a character" - which they're definitely doing, as only about a tenth of the creatures in Alien Core don't have something with at least 30ft of range increment.
It's about the overall shape of the metagame of character builds, not the "meta pick" as in the thing that's considered the best.
This ^^
I think a better term is range-enabled meta, because as you said, it's about enabling character options, not what options are best. In that sense, it's different from the PF2e meta at least at low levels.
To me, ranged meta just means that in SF2e, you can have a 1st-level party where everyone has a flying ancestry, and ranged weapons won't break the game because most of the opponents in SF2e have ranged attacks. Beyond that, nothing says you can't have an all-melee or all ranged party. If you do have an all ranged party in SF2e, the GM has better options in SF2e to allow the opponents to engage that party in ranged combat and not be forced to rush into melee because it's all that creatures can do.
Pretty much this. It always irks me when people use the excuse that Pathfinder stuff will fall behind because it leans melee as an excuse to dismiss Pathfinder compatibility. But Starfinder is actually pretty receptive to these builds. It's encouraged to the point that the Soldier has a melee-focused subclass.
To me, ranged meta just means that in SF2e, you can have a 1st-level party where everyone has a flying ancestry, and ranged weapons won't break the game because most of the opponents in SF2e have ranged attacks. Beyond that, nothing says you can't have an all-melee or all ranged party. If you do have an all ranged party in SF2e, the GM has better options in SF2e to allow the opponents to engage that party in ranged combat and not be forced to rush into melee because it's all that creatures can do.
Pretty much this. It always irks me when people use the excuse that Pathfinder stuff will fall behind because it leans melee as an excuse to dismiss Pathfinder compatibility. But Starfinder is actually pretty receptive to these builds. It's encouraged to the point that the Soldier has a melee-focused subclass.
Last week, in a low-level PF2e scenario, we had a melee-only character that spent the whole game looking for a ranged weapon to buy, barrow, or steel, and never found one. He ended up jumping off a castle tower to grapple a flying creature... I think that goes to show the real meta of both games is the creative solution meta.
To me, ranged meta just means that in SF2e, you can have a 1st-level party where everyone has a flying ancestry, and ranged weapons won't break the game because most of the opponents in SF2e have ranged attacks. Beyond that, nothing says you can't have an all-melee or all ranged party. If you do have an all ranged party in SF2e, the GM has better options in SF2e to allow the opponents to engage that party in ranged combat and not be forced to rush into melee because it's all that creatures can do.
Pretty much this. It always irks me when people use the excuse that Pathfinder stuff will fall behind because it leans melee as an excuse to dismiss Pathfinder compatibility. But Starfinder is actually pretty receptive to these builds. It's encouraged to the point that the Soldier has a melee-focused subclass.
I've got to be honest- I have the reverse concern. I have serious concerns about Strength Fighter and Barbarian becoming the meta in SF2 just because they're so easy to play. The final encounter of Wheel of Monsters is the only encounter I can think of where they might be at a noticeable disadvantage (This fight can feature enemies on several story high buildings starting 100 feet away at the oppoaite side of a giant city square). It also illustrated why these sorts of fights are so rare- The Enormous Battlefield flip mat doesn't fit on a lot of gaming tables, and even if it does, it may not leave room for people's drinks, dice, and character sheets.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Personally my decision to keep PF2 and SF2 largely separate has less to do with balance and more to do with having played or run PF2 for 7 years and wanting to see the new stuff. And my players seem to agree, since none of them took the few PF2 options I did allow.
My impression has been that organized play's decision to keep PF2 out of SF2 for now is for a similar reason.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
I can support Squark's hunch with play experience: according to the testing I've done, barbarians and fighters absolutely tear through any SF2 encounter that doesn't intentionally cause problems for them (which you can solve by giving your PC flight). Lower ranged damage means that enemies have a hard time taking down melee characters before they close the gap (even when they focus fire), and SF2 creatures have lighter defenses on average.
Weaker overall defenses feels like an interesting internal design choice, because in the monster creation rules for GM Core, they didn't modify defenses at all. I wonder if the weaker AC is budgeting for assumed ranged over melee. But they didn't touch those numbers for the Saving Throw and AC charts. I guess a higher proportion of them were designed toward the high ranged, lower AC balancing as if it was a ranged PF creature?
Either way, if the outcome of the "ranged meta" is that the actual meta is melee, that's deeply ironic. But personally I support it as it keeps Pathfinder stuff viable.
As for the Society play, my impression is that Starfinder has to have its kinks ironed out before Paizo should even consider mixing them on an official scale. I certainly think they are right to keep it separate for now, just not long term. SF2E has issues, even within it's own self. And fixing them would become all the more complicated when you throw Pathfinder into the mix, once things are fixed though, I think it'd be healthy for the game. If only because there are a lot of theoretical 1E characters that can only exist with access to Pathfinder content. And the only way to bring those back in a Starfinder-only scenario is just creating "Pathfinder class, but in space," and doubling up a lot of roads that were already paved in Pathfinder. I believe the end goal should be inclusion. As Pathfinder is called a kitchen sink, Starfinder is kind of a kitchen sink, too. While it does not look like one from an Archives of Nethys or Core Rulebook point of view, it becomes a kitchen sink throughout the other core books. Embracing Paizo's status as making kitchen sinks where you can be the characters at the corners of the lore, not just the most common types, is part of the appeal. Sometimes you wanna be something more traditional. The same way in Pathfinder, sometimes someone wants to be something more futuristic in playing something like an android.
If anything, most of my players had been the opposite as Perses'. That's kind of the magic of players, being so diverse. I've seen a tanuki monk from someone who is a fan of Journey to the West films, a Roll for Combat dragon witch who worships Lambatuin and is a streamer, a human runelord who is a scion from a Thassilon-settled planet in the vast (not actually a canon planet), and a cambion bard as a punk rockstar. There is a Sarcesian Solarion-I know, seemingly fully Starfinder- that is a former Power-Rangers type actor who wants the Daredevil archetype to be released already so they can apply it to the character, because they loved Daredevils so much after the playtest. On that note, I ran the entire Risk and Rewards Playtest in the Starfinder setting with the mandate of only using Pathfinder classes and equipment, and only fighting Pathfinder monsters. Some players prefer the new, but some simply prefer what can be done with the old.
Actually, for fun, I'll drop an example of mixing with the intro monologue to my Risk and Rewards Playtest.
Risk and Rewards:
Intro
You gaze upon the screen, as a bookish, elderly man walks into view, supporting himself on a cane. With skin with the consistency of mummified, pale leather, and a bulbous, egg-shaped head devoid of a single strand of hair, where one would expect eyes, you instead see hovering orbs of flame, alighting through a heavy pair of wide-framed glasses. It was an Elebrian. An undead native of the planet Eox. 3D renderings of ancient cities flashed in the B-roll as the man spoke.
Welcome back to Grand Golarion. I hope the commercial break was entertaining. For those of you who are just tuning in, I am your host, Doctor Elyr. Now to continue our lesson. Back in the day, long before the Gap, our mercenaries of yore did not rely on modern conveniences, yet the threats were much the same. Where we piloted cruisers to our destination, they rode horses. Where we keep a laser pistol for self-defense, the common man carried a crossbow. The comm unit you might be watching this show on? They had to visit play houses for entertainment, read books, and visit live seminars. Mighty inconvenient one might think. But the talents of the past made due. For our next segment, we will be showing off some local talents, masters in the old arts of combat. I know, this is your favorite part, so without further ado, let’s let our partner, Zo!, take it from here.
With a gesture, the scene faded to a brighter colosseum. Another Elebrian stood proud holding a microphone. Dressed in flashy purple garments, and sporting an elegant pencil mustache, his eyes alit as he called out, “Thank you, Doctor! And greetings to the viewers, as I welcome you to… THE OLD GOLARION GAUNTLET! Here our intrepid martial and magical experts will be engaging in combat with historic adversaries! And what’s better, is they will ONLY be using historically accurate equipment. That’s right folks! No guns allowed! (At least no fancy magazines… HOPE YOU LIKE BREAK ACTION!) For our audience, the rules are simple! Our mercs will be stepping into the arena, and they must survive the perils that the heroes of old had vanquished! Though you may recognize some of our mercs as accomplished heroes, each will be wearing a VatariTech Handy-Cap (patent pending), which will render them just as green as their first foray into wild space! Beat the enemy team, and they advance! Between each fight, they will be allowed some R&R to recoup their losses, as our assistance will tune their VatariTech Handy-Caps to restore more of their power! But will it be enough for the next challenge, well that’s what we will see! Now! How about we get this party started, and is it getting hot in here? Oh? It IS getting hot in here! <fast-paced tribal music begins to fill the stadium> Straight from Absalom Station’s Pipetown, might I introduce the Flaming Fireworks dance troupe!
A goblin enters through the far entrance, spinning a flaming pole as other goblins with shabby blades perform cartwheels about him. Once they reach their space, his support dancers enter an elaborate dance, symbols and bells being rung with their motions, as the fire dancer in the center brings his pole into a spin, slams it to the ground, and bites down the flaming edge of his pole, before spitting out a breath of flame that takes the form of an ornate dragon, before dissipating.
And in the merc corner, I present our adventurers!
Witchwarg fight
After such heat, let us cool off. Hailing from Triaxus, from the renowned survival vlog Silvermane Survives, I present Ellasif, Erik, and Jadrek!
Approaching from the gates, a trio of wolf-like creatures stride forward in step. Each one of such great statue they rival a horse. As one approaches from the middle, she sits, as her two brothers alike sit before them, and with frosty breath, they howl into the sky, before rising up, and baring their teeth.
Shield archon fight
Ah, but terrestrial threats are just one of many. From the ever-sunny mount of heaven itself, I present three brothers who always have each others backs. You’ve seen them! And you either love or dread their presence, present the shield brothers from the hit reality show, Heavenly Police, Epher, Enoch, and Massa!
A trio of utterly alien beings floats through the gates, each baring the countenance of a multi-armed shield, covered in eyes. A voice reverberates through one, like music, but somehow, you understand it. “Be not afraid, we look forward to a good clean, fight… To all the children watching, do not try this at home! We are trained professionals! Now then, to our esteemed rivals… En garde!”
Elyr fight
And lastly, I present the final challenge! Who could it be, but our esteemed host! You know him well by now, so let him introduce himself!
From the darkness of the tunnel, all you can hear is a slow, rhythmic, tap, tap, tap, tap, of a cane hitting the floor. In the distance, a pair of glowing pinpoints begin to sway as they grow closer, as the sound of an organ music begins to echo through the tunnel, it’s pace slowly picking up to a dramatic tempo, as mists spill along the ground. Before you is the old man, Elyr. The flames of his eyes are bright, as a deep, happy smile spreads his leathery lips. He raises his hands, cane outstretched, as crackling void energy begins to emanate from it. “Now listen well my audience, back in the day, great villains threatened the grounds of Golarion, such as the Whispering Tyrant Tar Baphon, whose worshippers favored a prototypical iteration of the Song of Silence we elebrians adhere to today. Such was his strength that it took a god of humanity to fell him and bring him toward lichdom. But countless great heroes faced him, and eventually, he would fall. As for you four… It is not often I get to exercise myself, especially against such talented partners. Fear not, I have prepared nothing to destroy you, but do not hold back. I want a good show. The heroes of yore stopped at nothing to bring down Golarion’s mightiest villains, so destroy this body, and show the galaxy what true potential is.”
Encounter stats:
Encounter 1 (Severe 1) 120 XP
4 Goblin Warriors plus 1 Goblin Pyro
Encounter 2 (Severe 5) 120 XP
3 Witchwargs
Encounter 3 (Severe 10) 120 XP
3 Shield Archons
Encounter 4 (Extreme 20) 160 XP
1 lich
Lich (LV 24)
Traits: Rare, Medium, Undead, Unholy
Perception: +37; Darkvision
Languages: Aklo, Common, Chthonian, Daemonic, Diabolic, Draconic, Eoxian, Necril
Skills: Arcana +48, Crafting +43 (can craft magic items), Deception +33, Diplomacy +36, Religion +40, Stealth +38
Str: +0, Dex: +7, Con: +0; Int: +11; Wis: +7; Cha: +6
Items: Major Staff of Arcane Might
AC: 49; Fort: +33; Ref: +37; Will: +39; +1 status to all saves vs. vitality
HP: 442, void healing, rejuvenation; Immunities: bleed, death effects, disease, paralyzed, poison, unconscious; Resistances: Acid 10, cold 15, Electricity 10, Fire 10, Force 10, Sonic 10, Vitality 10, Void 10, physical 15 (except magical bludgeoning)
Frightful Presence (Aura, Emotion, Fear, Mental): Range: 60 feet; Effect: A creature that first enters the area must attempt a DC 45 Will save. Regardless of the result of the saving throw, the creature is temporarily immune to the lich’s Frightful Presence for 1 minute.
Critical Success: The creature is unaffected by the presence.
Success: The creature is frightened 1.
Failure: The creature is frightened 2.
Critical Failure: The creature is frightened 4.
Counterspell [Reaction] Trigger: A creature casts a spell the lich has prepared; Effect: The lich expends a prepared spell to counter the triggering creatures casting of that same spell. The lich loses their spell slot as if they had cast the triggering spell. The lich then attempts to counteract the triggering spell.
Critical Success: Counteract the target if its counteract rank is no more than 3 higher than your effect's counteract rank.
Success: Counteract the target if its counteract rank is no more than 1 higher than your effect's counteract rank.
Failure: Counteract the target if its counteract rank is no more than 1 higher than your effect's counteract rank.
Critical Failure: You fail to counteract the target.
Rejuvenation (Arcane): When a lich is destroyed, their soul immediately transfers to their soul cage. A lich can be permanently destroyed only if their soul cage is found and destroyed.
Steady Spellcasting: If a reaction would disrupt the lich’s spellcasting action, the lich attempts a DC 15 flat check. On a success, the action isn’t disrupted.
Void Healing: The lich draws health from void energy rather than vitality energy. It is damaged by vitality damage and is not healed by healing vitality effects. It does not take void damage, and it is healed by void effects that heal undead.
Speed: 25 feet
Melee (1 Action) hand +42 (Finesse, Magical), Damage: 8d8 void plus Siphon Life
Arcane Prepared Spells: DC 52, attack +42; 10th: Freeze Time (Fly, then Fly up 10 feet, Fleet Step, then Fly up 20 feet, Mask of Terror, then Fly up 25 feet); 9th: Chain Lightning, Energy Aegis (already cast), Spell Riposte, Summon Draconic Legion (Dragons do void damage on the arrive); 8th: Chain Lightning (x2), Mask of Terror, Spell Riposte; 7th: Fly; 6th: Truesight, 4th: Invisibility, Translate; 1st: Enfeeble, Fleet Step, Gentle Landing, Sure Strike; Cantrips: Detect Magic, Electric Arc, Musical Accompaniment, Shield, Void Warp
Drain Soul Cage [Free Action] Frequency: once per day; Effect: The lich taps into their soul cage’s power to cast any arcane spell up to 10th rank, even if the spell being cast is not one of the lich’s prepared spells. The lich’s soul cage doesn’t need to be present for the lich to use this ability.
Siphon Life: A lich’s form draws forth life from those who come into contact with it. When the lich damages a living creature with an unarmed attack, the lich gains 5 temporary Hit Points and the creature must succeed at a DC 50 Fortitude save or become drained 1. If the lich is grabbed or restrained at the start of its turn, each creature grabbing or restraining it must succeed at a Fortitude save or become drained 1. If the lich siphons a creature’s life again, the drained value increases by 1, to a maximum of drained 4.
Weaker overall defenses feels like an interesting internal design choice, because in the monster creation rules for GM Core, they didn't modify defenses at all. I wonder if the weaker AC is budgeting for assumed ranged over melee. But they didn't touch those numbers for the Saving Throw and AC charts. I guess a higher proportion of them were designed toward the high ranged, lower AC balancing as if it was a ranged PF creature?
It could be some leftover design habits from Starfinder 1E, as well. SF1's stats were purposefully skewed so that PCs were overall tankier and more defensive while doing a bit less damage, while enemy creatures tended to be more aggressive but fragile. In practice what that meant was the two sides pretty much matched up. This also had the added benefits of summons and controlled enemy creatures not clogging up the battlefield because you were matching glass cannons against each other, and conversely any player who was unlucky enough to be mind controlled or whatever wouldn't be quite as dangerous, or as likely to go down from getting shot by their former friends.
