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More dragons? We thought you'd never ask. (We knew, actually. We love them too.) Eleanor is back in another blog about your favorite fierce foes from Pathfinder!
Most Glorious!
I swear an Oath that I would never make a Mocking remark to a Dragon.
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Okay! I've got to work a secret mocking dragon into my next campaign.
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Heck yeah, Outcast's Curse mentioned - my favorite horrifying spell in the game! Love the mocking dragon as a potential enemy in evil games. It's a nice break from angels and infighting, and I could see a GM slotting it in as a party nemesis in Blood Lords.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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Heck yeah, Outcast's Curse mentioned - my favorite horrifying spell in the game! Love the mocking dragon as a potential enemy in evil games. It's a nice break from angels and infighting, and I could see a GM slotting it in as a party nemesis in Blood Lords.
Oh, great idea, QuidEst!
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Maya Darling,
I just wanted to give a shout out or kudos to you. You are doing a great job with setting up the forums for blog comments and every thing else.
May the Radiant Prism smile upon you.
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Holding you to this, Prince Maleus!Most Glorious!
I swear an Oath that I would never make a Mocking remark to a Dragon.
Wiseman say, "Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup".
These have been guiding words for all my characters.
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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Maya Darling,
I just wanted to give a shout out or kudos to you. You are doing a great job with setting up the forums for blog comments and every thing else.
May the Radiant Prism smile upon you.
I'll keep doing my best! ^_^ Thank you!
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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I already poked on BlueSky, but I'll do it here too: The link on the blog to here is broken, it targets the text of the link instead of the actua URL it should point to!
In other news: HUZZAH! I love these two!
I've let them know! Should be fixed shortly!
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So Mocking Dragons can add insult to injury and also injury to insult? ;)
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My girlfriend's been obsessed with mocking dragons since they showed up during PaizoCon (she already has an OC of one's offputting human form) so I know she's gonna love using them in games eventually. The oath dragon's also pretty neat!
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The Mocking Dragon, also known as the Kefka Dragon in my game group.
The picture showed at Gencon screams Kefka from FF6 to us.
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The Mocking Dragon, also known as the Kefka Dragon in my game group.
The picture showed at Gencon screams Kefka from FF6 to us.
I can see it, though personally I get more Warhammer 40k Harlequin / Cegorach vibes. Probably the color scheme that does it for me.
Also saw a screenshot of the table of contents for Draconic Codex, and I feel vindicated that my initial guess on the Oath Dragon was as the successor of other silvery entities, given their historical Paladin/Champion-esque outlook and role! Cool to see it indicated up front that not every cause they choose to champion is necessarily a benevolent one, making them an even cleaner parallel to the Champion =]
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We fixed it!I already poked on BlueSky, but I'll do it here too: The link on the blog to here is broken, it targets the text of the link instead of the actua URL it should point to!
In other news: HUZZAH! I love these two!
Funnily, the link now goes direct to my post. xD
But yeah! Quick fix!
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Holding you to this, Prince Maleus!Most Glorious!
I swear an Oath that I would never make a Mocking remark to a Dragon.
Wiseman say, "Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup".
These have been guiding words for all my characters.
“Watch your back, conserve ammo, and never cut a deal with a Dragon.”
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Not very fond of the Silver Dragon's replacement. I'd like to think Oath Dragons should be far more benevolent than that.
So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??
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So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??
The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I could see how a Mocking Dragon might serve as a Q-like semi-antagonist in a campaign.
There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
I mean, maybe? They didn't allude to whether or not the Executor Dragon was a new or Remastered dragon when Eleanor and Luis talked about it in the last Paizo LIVE!.
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I mean, maybe? They didn't allude to whether or not the Executor Dragon was a new or Remastered dragon when Eleanor and Luis talked about it in the last Paizo LIVE!.There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
In fairness they really didn't say anything at all about it other than that it's kinda furry like old medieval European illustrations =P
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Community & Social Media Specialist
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In fairness they really didn't say anything at all about it other than that it's kinda furry like old medieval European illustrations =P
We can't say everything all at once! We like the speculation and pontification from our community!
Very much interested in this!
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In fairness they really didn't say anything at all about it other than that it's kinda furry like old medieval European illustrations =PWe can't say everything all at once! We like the speculation and pontification from our community!
Oh for sure! I was more referencing how we're unsure where the successors of certain of the Metallics are and how Executor is as good a thought as any due to not knowing much yet ^_^
Definitely been a fan of the preview posts preceding Draconic Codex!
There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
Is there an index for all the supplantings? I only know the more obvious ones (Horned/Green and Cinder/Red).
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Is there an index for all the supplantings? I only know the more obvious ones (Horned/Green and Cinder/Red).There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).
Only Fan-Made ones.
Here what's confirmed:Green: Horned
Black: Bog
Red: Cinder
White: Rime (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Blue: Stormcrown (Not 100% officially confirmed. Because of the website hiccups, can't double check the source.)
Copper: Mocking (Righteous pranks)
Brass: Whisper (Information networks)
Bronze: Sage (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Silver: Oath (Promises)
Gold: [Still unknown!]
To note, at least one "black" dragon have been retconned as being a fortune dragon, but its only mention was in an AP as a mindless zombie that was still gathering treasures, so it wasn't that much of a big retcon.
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Not very fond of the Silver Dragon's replacement. I'd like to think Oath Dragons should be far more benevolent than that.
Or those known as Silver Dragons were actually the most benevolent of Oath Dragons.
Maybe some misled student of Dragons lore thought that moral bent (like good vs evil) was actually defining of a Dragon species.
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Absolute kudos for the double meaning in the title of this blog XD
Not very fond of the Silver Dragon's replacement. I'd like to think Oath Dragons should be far more benevolent than that.Or those known as Silver Dragons were actually the most benevolent of Oath Dragons.
Maybe some misled student of Dragons lore thought that moral bent (like good vs evil) was actually defining of a Dragon species.
The way I see it, most typical silver oath dragons are probably more likely than not to swear oaths in the name of righteous causes than intentionally commit to villainy. To me, the text of the blog referring to oath dragons who turn despicable is a cautionary tale of what happens when a well-intentioned but short-sighted oath goes wrong and the dragon whose essence is fundamentally dedicated to the oath turns tragic. The upshot of that is that it strikes me that most oath dragons are extremely circumspect about what kinds of oaths they swear, which is why the story of the rash or hastily sworn oaths are noteworthy in contrast.
And of course, it's fair to say that this is a fantasy setting, so people who consciously devote themselves to evil causes and unholy powers exist, and likely there are oath dragons doing that, but in my mind this only makes them remain the most 'paladin' of the new dragons. They are shining beings of oaths and dedication who are superhumanly dedicated to their cause, but like most mortals, they are not born inherently good nor evil, and must consciously choose. Then, when the oaths they've sworn conflict with what is the right thing to do, they face a dilemma. The only difference here is when it happens to human or elf, their choice is whether doing what they think is right requires a breech of conduct, but when it happens to the dragon, the only option is the tragic one for maximum drama.
So even if some silver dragons can be bent toward evil (technically not new, they always had that potential like any living creature) and now there are probably a few silver dragons whose idea of a worthy cause is consciously evil, I feel like it means more that those oath dragons who are good and choose goodness are even nobler than those that were simply born biased to do good.
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And now I'm picturing a foolish, evil oath dragon who swore an oath to increase the amount of suffering in the world, and in this pursuit, has created cutting-edge life-saving medicines and magical techniques because a person who recovers from a disease suffered from it for a longer time and still has the potential to suffer more in the future... not to say their hospital is a nice place to visit; they've certainly never heard of painkillers there.
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Is there an index for all the supplantings? I only know the more obvious ones (Horned/Green and Cinder/Red).There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).Only Fan-Made ones.
Here what's confirmed:Green: Horned
Black: Bog
Red: Cinder
White: Rime (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Blue: Stormcrown (Not 100% officially confirmed. Because of the website hiccups, can't double check the source.)Copper: Mocking (Righteous pranks)
Brass: Whisper (Information networks)
Bronze: Sage (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Silver: Oath (Promises)
Gold: [Still unknown!]To note, at least one "black" dragon have been retconned as being a fortune dragon, but its only mention was in an AP as a mindless zombie that was still gathering treasures, so it wasn't that much of a big retcon.
Stormcrown was referenced in Monster Core 2 as threats to other inhabitants of the dessert.
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And now I'm picturing a foolish, evil oath dragon who swore an oath to increase the amount of suffering in the world, and in this pursuit, has created cutting-edge life-saving medicines and magical techniques because a person who recovers from a disease suffered from it for a longer time and still has the potential to suffer more in the future... not to say their hospital is a nice place to visit; they've certainly never heard of painkillers there
Kuthite Oath Dragon FTW.
{. . .}
And of course, it's fair to say that this is a fantasy setting, so people who consciously devote themselves to evil causes and unholy powers exist,{. . .}
You don't even need a fantasy setting for that.
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{. . .}
And of course, it's fair to say that this is a fantasy setting, so people who consciously devote themselves to evil causes and unholy powers exist,{. . .}You don't even need a fantasy setting for that.
Yeah, you know what? 5 years ago maybe I'd have quibbled about the difference between evil for short-sighted personal gain and consciously choosing evil for the sake of evil but... well, the last 5 years happened. I don't have those bones in me anymore.
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[Snipped content to prevent tunneling...] Blue: Stormcrown (Not 100% officially confirmed. Because of the website hiccups, can't double check the source.) [...]Stormcrown was referenced in Monster Core 2 as threats to other inhabitants of the dessert.
Yes! But this is not confirmation that they replace the old blue dragons! :P Just some circumstantial evidences!
In the same way, if someone only had that AP book that changed a specific black dragon into a fortune one, that person could think that all black dragons are changed to fortune, which isn't the case, as have been confirmed by Paizo staff. So yeah, that's what I meant by "not 100% officially confirmed".
Are product discussions not a thing anymore??
Are product discussions not a thing anymore??
They seem to be gone with the site update sadly
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{. . .}
And of course, it's fair to say that this is a fantasy setting, so people who consciously devote themselves to evil causes and unholy powers exist,{. . .}You don't even need a fantasy setting for that.
"Consciously" is highly debatable in RL. More than in the Golarion setting.
Also RL people don't derive magical powers from such devotion AFAIK.
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Is there an index for all the supplantings? I only know the more obvious ones (Horned/Green and Cinder/Red).There's also the Executor Dragon...? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯So do we have all of the OG DnD caste's replacements now??The only one we don't know the name of is the replacement for the Gold Dragon. If I were a betting man, I'd say the Vizier Dragon sounds like the closest fit to them, compared to the other options (Wailing and Wish).Only Fan-Made ones.
Here what's confirmed:Green: Horned
Black: Bog
Red: Cinder
White: Rime (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Blue: Stormcrown (Not 100% officially confirmed. Because of the website hiccups, can't double check the source.)Copper: Mocking (Righteous pranks)
Brass: Whisper (Information networks)
Bronze: Sage (Known because a dragon NPC was refered as such)
Silver: Oath (Promises)
Gold: [Still unknown!]To note, at least one "black" dragon have been retconned as being a fortune dragon, but its only mention was in an AP as a mindless zombie that was still gathering treasures, so it wasn't that much of a big retcon.
Wieth book in hand, Stormcrown is definitely old blue. Vizier is old gold (Mengkare gets mentioned, as do a couple other 1E golds)
Interestingly the coloration on both bog and rime are not as close to the original coloration of the other three former chromatics. Bog is a bit more green, and rime is very blue.|
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Good to see stormcrown dragons finally getting out there!
While blue dragons were traditionally my favorite of the OGL Ten (especially in the 3e Todd Lockwood interpretation), I really tried to come at the stormcrown dragon from first principles. What does it mean to be a primal dragon? A dragon of storms and lightning? (Blue dragons, at least to my mind, were really desert dragons—destroying potable liquids, creating mirages and illusions—that happened to breathe lightning.)
I'm not certain they'll always slot neatly into the niche blue dragons occupied—I suspect that the average stormcrown dragon would drive a lawful evil creature up the wall, although they do share a certain love of machination with their forebears—but I do hope people will find them both interesting and useful nonetheless. ^_^
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Good to see stormcrown dragons finally getting out there!
While blue dragons were traditionally my favorite of the OGL Ten (especially in the 3e Todd Lockwood interpretation), I really tried to come at the stormcrown dragon from first principles. What does it mean to be a primal dragon? A dragon of storms and lightning? (Blue dragons, at least to my mind, were really desert dragons—destroying potable liquids, creating mirages and illusions—that happened to breathe lightning.)
I'm not certain they'll always slot neatly into the niche blue dragons occupied—I suspect that the average stormcrown dragon would drive a lawful evil creature up the wall, although they do share a certain love of machination with their forebears—but I do hope people will find them both interesting and useful nonetheless. ^_^
Super excited to get a look at them, they sound amazing.
My longest running and very first DnD3e -> PF 1 and 2 PC was a blue dragon sorcerer extremely connected to the arcane. This is absolutely going to be a major change for my boy but I'm very excited to workshop him into being a primal caster now. Going to take some significant retooling of his lore I think, though I'm glad their love for machinations remained. He always was a schemer.
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Interestingly the coloration on both bog and rime are not as close to the original coloration of the other three former chromatics. Bog is a bit more green, and rime is very blue.
Now that dragons are not "chromatic", they're free to vary in color more than they were originally. The rime dragon on page 204 is much whiter in color than the one in the Field Guide.