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“Fun” is hard to judge. MT is not particularly optimal. But if it matches the class fantasy you want, that can make it fun.
Personally, I’d probably use a human lore shaman for this kind of class fantasy. The lore shaman can cherry pick from the wizard spell list. And the human shaman can cherry pick from the cleric spell list. It’s pretty much everything you want in one convenient place.
If you want a detailed guide to the options that work best for a Mystic Theurge (though minus the questionable early entry shenanigans), you can check out my mostly-complete-but-still-WIP guide. It includes a link to another guide that explores the early entry stuff as well.
In general, a mystic theurge is best suited for a player with a good amount of system mastery. There are ways to be effective, even without using (not guaranteed to be allowed) early entry exploits, but (as with most multi-classed casters) the "mid-levels" (around 5th/6th to 12th character level or so) can often "feel bad" compared to single-classed casters; mystic theurges often only "come into their own" and start competing with single-classed casters again around 14th/15th character level.
Also, if you want to focus on a single casting stat then cleric (or druid)/sorcerer (wildblooded, Celestial/Empyreal) can "double-up" on Wis for spells and only needs cleric 3/sorcerer 4 to qualify.
On another note, sometimes combining a 9-level caster with a 6-level caster using mystic theurge can result in a "better feeling" character before high-level play. Or even two 6-level casters such as magus and warpriest.
The early entry tricks have been for the most part declared invalid by developers.
I would recommend against the Mystic Theurge. Getting spells lots of spells from two different lists seems like a good idea, but it is a trap. You are extremely far behind on gaining higher level spells. If your classes do not have the same casting stat you will have to split your stat resources, which makes your spells even weaker. So, you either need to go with an oracle/sorcerer or go with a cleric/empyreal sorcerer.
Mystic Theurge also does not advance any class features of your previous classes except spell casting. That includes bloodline and mystery, which means you do not get bloodline or mystery spells. You also cannot take advantage FCB of extra spells know for spontaneous casters. This means not only do you not have access to higher level spells you do not have access to many spells at all. At 9th level (Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4) the Mystic Theurge knows 12 0 level spells, 11 1st level spells and 7 2nd level spells. The 9th level Oracle has 8 0 level spells, 7 1st level spell, 6 2nd level spells, 5 3rd level spell, and 4 4th level spells. This does not include the FCB of some races, if those are factored in the single classed Oracle has 11 0 level spell, 9 1st level spells, 8 2nd level spells, 7 3rd level spell and 4 4th level spells. The Mystic Theurge can gain up to 6 0 level spells, and 1 1st level spell assuming he is a half elf.
Your caster level is also lower than normal so your ability to deal with spell resistance is also penalized. It also means the spells you do cast will be less effective especially when it comes to damage.
Like I said it is a trap.
Sorcerer/oracle is probably the worst way to do MT. You get your 1st level of MT until level 9. And you lose the vast majority of your bloodline and mystery powers.
From a power standpoint cleric/wizard is probably the best because of the earliest entry into MT and having the fewest class features lost to thaking a prestige class. needing 2 mental stats is something of an issue, but if you do not use one of the classes for things that require saves all you are missing out on is a bonus spell or two.
A build I am currently trying out is a sorcerer/cleric.
For sorcerer I took the celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype so that I use Wis for both classes.
For the cleric I took an archetype that trades away channel energy.
A build I am currently trying out is a sorcerer/cleric.
For sorcerer I took the celestial bloodline with the wildblooded archetype so that I use Wis for both classes.
For the cleric I took an archetype that trades away channel energy.
I have four examples for a spontaneous arcane and divine prepared caster that make use of the Sorcerer. Two specifically that make use of the Cleric.
1) Sorcerer / Cleric (Empyreal / Ecclesitheurge) aka Divine Destiny - Makes use of your almost useless channel energy pool to buff your allies, and uses the Luck/Freedom domains for their granted powers. WISDOM BASED
2) Sorcerer / Cleric (Cross-blooded: Any / Elder Mythos Cultist) aka Mutters of Madness - Recommends: Rime-Blooded & Void-Touched wild bloodlines and the Void domain. Specializing in cold allows for some serious debuffs. CHARISMA BASED
For some builds that use other classes to pair with Sorcerer
3) Sorcerer / Druid (Empyreal / Halcyon Druid) aka Whispers of the Wise - Less flash than some of the other builds but doesn't tie you to a deity. WISDOM BASED
4) Sorcerer / Shaman (Empyreal / Unsworn Shaman) aka Woes of the Wilderness - You want to focus on evocation spells, and boost your spell DCs. The Waves spirit is your friend, as with Crashing Waves combined with any spell with the water descriptor means knocking down your enemies. Benthic Spell (metamagic) plus Produce Flame (or Pale Flame) will make you dangerous. You can also get numerous hexes with this build, making you much more than just your spells. WISDOM BASED.
The early entry tricks have been for the most part declared invalid by developers.
I would recommend against the Mystic Theurge. Getting spells lots of spells from two different lists seems like a good idea, but it is a trap. You are extremely far behind on gaining higher level spells. If your classes do not have the same casting stat you will have to split your stat resources, which makes your spells even weaker. So, you either need to go with an oracle/sorcerer or go with a cleric/empyreal sorcerer.
Mystic Theurge also does not advance any class features of your previous classes except spell casting. That includes bloodline and mystery, which means you do not get bloodline or mystery spells. You also cannot take advantage FCB of extra spells know for spontaneous casters. This means not only do you not have access to higher level spells you do not have access to many spells at all. At 9th level (Oracle 4/Sorcerer 4) the Mystic Theurge knows 12 0 level spells, 11 1st level spells and 7 2nd level spells. The 9th level Oracle has 8 0 level spells, 7 1st level spell, 6 2nd level spells, 5 3rd level spell, and 4 4th level spells. This does not include the FCB of some races, if those are factored in the single classed Oracle has 11 0 level spell, 9 1st level spells, 8 2nd level spells, 7 3rd level spell and 4 4th level spells. The Mystic Theurge can gain up to 6 0 level spells, and 1 1st level spell assuming he is a half elf.
Your caster level is also lower than normal so your ability to deal with spell resistance is also penalized. It also means the spells you do cast will be less effective especially when it comes to damage.
Like I said it is a trap.
I agree with your overall analysis, but I'm a little confused by your numbers. You specifically said that you weren't accounting for FCB extra spells in your first comparison. I'm assuming that you are counting the bonus spells from mystery for one extra spells known per level.
I'm...
Oracles also get either cure or inflict spells in addition to their normal spells and mystery spells. Sorcerers do not get that so are actually a bit behind in spells known.
Also, if you want to focus on a single casting stat then cleric (or druid)/sorcerer (wildblooded, Celestial/Empyreal) can "double-up" on Wis for spells and only needs cleric 3/sorcerer 4 to qualify.
I just remembered another possibility: druid (feyspeaker) 3/sorcerer 4 for Cha-based casting. Feyspeaker also has 6 + Int skill ranks (instead of 4 + Int).
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There is one particular niche where the Mystic Theurge does shine. And that's being a (mostly) pure buffing cleric/wizard.
-Cleric and Wizard, so earliest possible entry
-You can pull from both the cleric and the wizard spell lists
-You get tons of spell slots
-You don't care about DCs, so it's OK to have two different casting stats
A buff caster is a force multiplier no matter what but is at its peak when the whole party understands the point and the mechanics of what you are doing and plans their builds with your abilities in mind. Should we spend our treasure to upgrade our armors from +1 to +2? Nope, put a special property on instead - the cleric prepares four magic vestments every day.
I played several versions of buffers in PFS. My most extreme buff-focused inquisitor was, at 13th level, spending 60-70% of his spell slots on long duration buffs at the start of the day. Could have been even more if it wasn't PFS. Mostly pickup groups meant a lot of players had - for example - upgraded their armor to +4 or better since they didn't know my character would be in their group. Even so I had to ration my short-duration buffs in combats so I didn't run out of spell slots.
I never did play a Mystic Theurge buffer. Why? As others have said, there's a range where playing the Mystic Theurge "feels bad." In a buff build it's levels 4-7 (where you haven't yet gotten any 3rd-level buff spells) and, slightly less intensely, levels 8-9 (where you have the 3rd-level buffs but not many spell slots). It isn't until level 12 where you really feel ahead of what a single-class buffer could do. Which is near the end of most campaigns.
The idea that a mystic theurge gets more spells per day is exaggerated. While they do get more low-level spells per day their total number of spells per day is only slightly higher, and the total spell levels per day is lower. Compare a cleric 3/wizard 3/ mystic theurge 3 to a 9th level cleric. Excluding 0 level spells the mystic theurge can cast 28 spells per day, and his total spell levels per day is 54. The straight 9th level cleric can cast 23 spells per day, with a total spell levels cast of 59.
Their caster level will be 3 levels lower which will often mean that even their buffs are less effective. If both the mystic theurge and the straight cleric cast resist energy the clerics spell will be more effective. When the mystic theurge casts the resist energy it will provide 10 points of energy resistance and last for 60 minutes. When the cleric casts the resist energy it provides 20 points of resistance and lasts 90 minutes. The lower caster level means the mystic theurge’s spells are easier to dispel and they will have more trouble with spell resistance than the straight cleric.
Having to split your casting stat also means you do not get as many bonus spells from having a high stat.
The only role a mystic theurge really does well in is as an NPC. In a party without any full casters the lower-level spells are helpful and the mystic theurge will not overshadow the PCs. It can be the same level as the PCs, so it is not a sitting duck due to lower HP and saves but still allows the PCs to shine. It would also make a good item creating NPC. Wizards already get scribe scroll so if the mystic theurge takes brew potion they can create a ton of potions and scrolls.
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The idea that a mystic theurge gets more spells per day is exaggerated. While they do get more low-level spells per day their total number of spells per day is only slightly higher, and the total spell levels per day is lower. Compare a cleric 3/wizard 3/ mystic theurge 3 to a 9th level cleric. Excluding 0 level spells the mystic theurge can cast 28 spells per day, and his total spell levels per day is 54. The straight 9th level cleric can cast 23 spells per day, with a total spell levels cast of 59.
Like any time you compare two classes in PF1, a lot depends on what level you pick. The pure cleric gets a bigger jump in spell slots and higher spell levels on odd levels, MT gets them at even.
Character level comparison of pure cleric vs. Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT X, using only base spell slots including domain and school slots (not bonus slots from high casting stat modifier):
9th level - cleric 19, MT 22
10th level - cleric 21, MT 28
11th level - cleric 24, MT 32
12th level - cleric 26, MT 38
Not to mention that at 10th level they are both providing 20 point resist energy. But then the cleric swings back into the lead with resist 30 at 11th level! It's very easy to pick a level that supports a particular side of a discussion.
Am I saying "behold, the buffing Mystic Theurge! The only class anyone should ever play!" No, of course not. As I stated above I chose not to play one myself. You don't really feel "ahead" of a single-class buffer until around 12th level (when you get 5th-level spells and your slot advantage gets really pronounced). Which is very late in most campaigns. I'd personally rather play something that feels on par for the entire campaign. And you need a party that really appreciates the mechanics and plans with you in mind.
There is a niche for it. Of course it would be even better if the GM lets your group have an NPC MT tagging along doing the buffing instead of a PC. But that's true for everything. NPC bard! NPC save-or-suck caster!
I toyed with (but never played) the house rule that you could take MT as soon as you got 3 skill point in both Knowledge-Religion and Knowledge Arcana, but your MT level couldn't be more than the lowest of your 2 main classes, until you got enough base levels to support casting 2nd level spells in both. So you get a bit of the MT goodness early, but not much. For example
1 Cleric 1
2 Wizard 1
3 MT 1 (so you're now C2 W2 casting)
4 Cleric 2: C3 W2 casting
5 Wizard 2: C3 W3 casting
6 MT 2: C4 W4
7 Cleric 3: C5 W4 casting
8 Wizard 3: C5 W5 casting
9 MT 3: C6 W6
10 MT 4: etc
You do need to sink a lot of your early skill points quickly, which is OK for Wizards who can spare the Int but would suck for a sorcerer/cleric. It's probably a little OP for the cleric/wizard combo because they're so good anyway, but as it affects only the low levels it's probably OK.
My math is based on having an 18 WIS by 9th level because in reality a single classed cleric will almost always have at least that by 8th level. The mystic theurge had lower casting stats because they need to split it between INT and WIS. When I compare characters, I try to build them as playable characters, not as some theory crafted build that would not work in an actual game. That means I usually use a 20-point build and allocate some of those point to DEX and CON to make sure the character is not. Both characters I used for comparison had 14 DEX and CON. The single classed cleric had an 18 WIS after racial adjustment, the mystic theurge had an 18 WIS and 14 INT, but those could be reversed. Looking over my numbers, I noticed I had made a mistake and assumed the wizard would have the same number of spells as the cleric, but sine the INT is lower they would have one 3rd level spell than the cleric.
I'v seen some things about getting access early like using Equipment Trick Sunrod to make Dancing Lanters count as 1 level higher to thus get early access so you could be like 1 Sorcerer/4 Oracle and then enter at level 6 for example...
Does not work. Equipment Trick (Sunrod) says "The spell is treated as one spell level higher (to a maximum of 9th level) for all purposes", and what spell slot you need to cast it or prepare is is a 'purpose'.
It seems like it could be fun to play a Mystic Theurge, Having access to a bunch of spells from two lists, But is it even worth it...?
No, it is not. Mystic Theurge is a relic of 3.x, and has no use in PF because there are way better ways of getting both traditional arcane and traditional divine spells onto your list. Like the Witch and Shaman classes. And you don't actually have more relevant spell slots, either.
Think about what you actually want to do, and then go from there.
The only form of unconventional qualification that I'm aware of that works is the Faith Magic arcane discovery, allowing you to enter with only 1 level in your divine spellcasting class. However, it requires 7 levels of Wizard or 8 levels of Arcanist, so even though you get to enter with a more favorable class combination it ends up being a delayed entry.
It's a pretty good build that completely avoids the valley of suck and caps out at 9th/6th level casting which is a pretty good trade. But if you're playing a 1-18 campaign that's half the campaign before you even start dabbling in divine casting. It also doesn't work for Sorcerer/Oracle at all.
Sorcerer/Oracle is really tempting for obvious reasons, but as others have already pointed out it's actually the worst Theurge combination. It has no real support, you're giving up very powerful class features, you have such delayed spellcasting that you don't overtake 6-level casters until 18th level. That's a long time to wait for your build to become merely okay, and it's so far behind that it never becomes great.
Wizard/Cleric really isn't that bad. Yes, you do need to invest in two ability scores now, but it's easy to pick one as your primary and then just avoid spells that call for saving throws with the other one. You don't need more than 13 Wisdom plus a headband if you're just using buff, support, and utility spells with your divine casting. Gaining effectively two levels of spellcasting progression is well worth paying for a pricier headband.
The idea that a mystic theurge gets more spells per day is exaggerated.
I completely agree, and if anything I think your analysis is too forgiving on the theurge. When you're running low on spell slots, it's usually your higher level slots that go first. The Theurge is actually exacerbating the place where you're most likely to experience spell slot depletion, while alleviating it in the place you are least likely to experience it!
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The MT was relatively more optimal in 3.5, because the casters had fewer class abilities to give up. Part of the design intent of Pathfinder was to make the core classes more desirable instead of immediately heading for a PrC, as was done in 3.x. They almost went too far the other way and made most PrCs irrelevant.
Let them try it, it will not take long before they realize it is a trap for a PC. Sometimes the only way to understand how bad something is, is to try it.
Let them try it, it will not take long before they realize it is a trap for a PC. Sometimes the only way to understand how bad something is, is to try it.
Unless you happen to have a pure wizard or cleric in the party to compare, you probably won’t notice the difference. If your MT is the only primary caster in the party, it could easily be a fun time.
Unless the players are complete novices that have never played a game with a full caster in the party they will notice the difference. Spell casters tend to be less powerful at low levels and quickly gain power; martial classes have the advantage at low level. Mystic Theurge makes this worse, now they no longer grow powerful as quickly, so they are still behind the martial classes.
By the time the character is gaining their first level of Mystic Theurge the paladin is also getting 2nd level spells. The paladin will be almost as good at healing as the Mystic Theurge and will have all the paladins other class abilities. The paladin will be a lot more effective in combat than the Mystic Theurge and have much better defenses.
On the arcane side if the party has a magus the magus will have better offensive spell casting than the Mystic Theurge. Not only will he have a higher caster level and more arcane spells, he will have access to 3rd level spells compared to the Mystic Theurge’s 2nd level spells. The magus like the paladin will also have access to all the magus class abilities in addition to being able to fight without magic.
What does the cleric 3/Wizard 3 Mystic Theurge 1 add to the party that has a paladin and a magus?
In my experience, it is incredibly rare to have a paladin in your party and somewhat rare to have a magus. You’re more likely to have a ranger and a fighter or rogue.
Pathfinder multi classing seems best in you take a single level of one class and all other levels in your main class. So prestige classes that force you to split your levels had better be pretty darned good. And most are not.
In my experience, it is incredibly rare to have a paladin in your party and somewhat rare to have a magus. You’re more likely to have a ranger and a fighter or rogue.
My experience is exactly the opposite. We have 2 players that play Paladin and Magus over 50% of the time.
Rangers also get spells at the same rate as paladins, so do bloodragers. Bards, Hunters, Inquisitors, Skalds, Summoners and Warpriests all get spells at the same rate as a magus. Alchemist and investigators do not get spells, but their extracts might as well be. Most Pathfinder classes have some sort of spell ability. Chances are there will be at least two other characters that can match if not exceed the spell casting ability of at least one side of the mystic theurge even without either a cleric or wizard in the party. When you add other full casters like Arcanist, Druids, Shamans, and so on the chances are all three other players in a party of 4 will have significant magical ability and almost guaranteed that at least 2 will.
The warpriest will be able to do everything the cleric portion of the mystic theurge can do better than they can except for the low-level domain abilities. The warpriest will have better AC and combat ability as well.
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Not every player chases the most optimal thing though. Not necessarily because they don't know how to optimize but because they find enjoyment in playing something else or like taking on a challenge. Paladins and Magi are also popular at our table. I think any player with some understanding of the system sees that the MT isn't a powerhouse, but can be entertaining to play.
I would very much like the chance to play MT myself because I like the idea of two different casting classes combined, and it would make fun flavor for a worshipper of a magic-deity. I played a Theurge class in 3.5 (Ultimate Magus, sorcerer/wizard combo), and yeah, I was behind on spell levels but I had spells for days (so we rarely had an issue with needing to stop and rest for spells) and more than once frustrated the GM by having the right spell for the occasion.
Currently in my Ruins of Azlant campaign, a player wants to aim for the Mystic Theurge. They'll be the only divine caster in the group (granted that no one else dies and rolls up a cleric or oracle or druid), but share the arcane casting with a Unicorn Sorcerer. I think it will be fine. In my own playthrough of the same AP, our two casters were Bard and Warpriest, and we did succeed without a fully focused caster.
There is a big difference between not being optimal and being weak. As I pointed out most of what people thinks about the mystic theurge is exaggerated if not outright false. The analysis I did on the number of spells and spell levels per day are not opinions they are fact based on the charts found in the books.
The only type of spell a mystic theurge outclasses a single class caster at is 0 level spells because those do not really level up that much, nor do they get bonus cantrips from high stats. Once past 2nd level neither clerics nor wizards get more 0 level spells.
If you think it would be fun to play and are aware of the drawbacks go ahead and play it. But be aware you are basically playing the equivalent to a side kick instead of a hero. If you are ok playing a teenage Robin when the rest of the party are playing the JLA go for it. But do not complain that the character is so underpowered. I am not saying this to be mean.
I have played some characters that are less powerful in combat than normal, but those characters usually had something else to make up for it. I do not see what that could be in the mystic theurge, but if you find it more power to you.
I've been slowly updating my Mystic Theurge guide as time and motivation allow. I've started to do full builds, starting with my "Far Realms Seducer" combination of Seducer Witch and Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric. Its a deep dive on on the numbers, especially spells per day and spell level access. I account for bonus spells from high ability scores (I ignore cantrips/orisons for calculations, but list them on tables). Check it out, if you want. It has its own tab for the Far Realms Seducer.
Quick Run down: Level 8 is where a Witch/Cleric/MT has more spells per day than a pure leveled cleric (112%, or 3 more spells per day). It surpasses a pure witch very early on, but thats due to lack of built in bonus spells like the cleric gets from a domain. The gap in access to higher level spells always remains in favor of the pure classes, naturally. Level 12 is where things get really noticeable, when the Mystic Theurge has 141% of the spells per day of a pure cleric.
I plan on doing full level 20 builds for each of my 'Focused' Classes (ie, share the same casting stat), with minor attention paid to magic items that are key to spellcasting.
EDIT: Disclaimer, I am basing all my mystic theurge builds on a half-elf due to their unique racial abilities to boost caster levels. This doesn't effect spells per day.
That build does address some of the problems with the mystic theurge. It still has the problem of slower access to higher level spells and lower caster level in one of the classes. This raises the mystic theurge from a trap to a weak choice. The big drawback is that this locks in your alignment and deity. I do not like evil characters and many tables do not allow them. Even Chaotic Neutral can be problematic and is often discouraged in many groups.
But any other build that does not do something similar is a trap.
True, but even so I have players who have expressed interest in trying the MT in PF1.
Virtually everyone I've seen to do so played 3.5 and still has misconceptions about prestige classes, or the "arcane/divine divide" stuck in their heads. Assuming it's not purely nostalgia.
There are two big issues with the PF MT:
• First, you get no class features. None. Your class features from the parent classes stop progressing, and between lvl1 and lvl10 MT has zero class features. Yes, you get spellcasting from both classes, but everything is delayed so much that it can easily feel bad compared to what other classes get on levelup. One of the main design principles of PF1 is to prevent empty levels, and while not the only offender (looking at you, Cleric!), this can easily make the player feel left out.
• Second, there is no arcane/divine divide in Pathfinder. Witch has many traditionally divine spells on an arcane list (like the Cure line). Shaman can straight up grab any Wizard spells. Psychic casters and Alchemist/Investigator lists are a mix of traditionally arcane and divine spells. Wizard has healing spells. Bloodline spells muddle the mixture for Sorcerers. And you can even get staple arcane spells like Haste or Greater Invisibility on a Cleric with the right deity!
So while maybe fine in a vacuum, if there's a good chance that if you have any other caster in the party, them getting 'non-traditional' spells with no issues can leave the MT players resentful over the price they paid to get what others have for free.
A potential third issue is that you basically lock yourself out of spells with saving throws. Whether this is an issue in the first place depends on playstyle/character concept, naturally, but many people get bored playing a pure support caster.
That build does address some of the problems with the mystic theurge. It still has the problem of slower access to higher level spells and lower caster level in one of the classes. This raises the mystic theurge from a trap to a weak choice. The big drawback is that this locks in your alignment and deity. I do not like evil characters and many tables do not allow them. Even Chaotic Neutral can be problematic and is often discouraged in many groups.
But any other build that does not do something similar is a trap.
This build is one of many I will be putting together, many of which are not deity or alignment restricted, and I probably the one with the LEAST amount of spells per day. I chose to do it first because it shares a casting stat and is at the early entry.
Table variation is not something I am addressing nor something I want to argue about, as it is entirely subjective.
Unless your other builds also have a shared casting stat the number of spells they get per day will not be significantly higher than the eldritch cultist/seducer build. Splitting the casting stat also means fewer bonus spells especially higher-level spells. The other thing to consider about the need for two casting stats is that it will probably mean your other stats are lower. Losing points in DEX and CON will further weaken the character do to lower HP, AC and saves.
You also do not get the FCB for prestige classes. Losing a few HP and skill points is not a big deal but some of the alternate FCB are much better. The human FCB of extra spells known for spontaneous casters is incredibly strong. Other races often have other valuable FCB.
Yes, all of that I am aware of. I've never stated a Mystic Theurge is better than a single classed caster. Instead of arguing about why someone shouldn't take it, I am advising them on the best ways to do it. And how to go about staying relevant throughout your adventuring career while doing it.
Faith Magic is the only entry I think is worth serious consideration.
Wizard 7/Cleric 1/MT 10/Wizard 2
You only give up a level of wizard progress, which is tolerable. The down side is that your divine spells are quite a bit behind your arcane ones. But if you want to have Lesser Restoration on hand, it's not a terrible route.
Consideration is a highly subjective term. From my own viewpoint, I'd eagerly and enthusiastically play probably the most non-optimal combinations of Sorcerer4/Shaman4 with a Mystic Theurge, and I'd still classify it as worth consideration.
Viewing the game, and the viability of options, through a purely mechanical lens is going to kneecap 90% of the possibilities the system offers you. Yes, there are mechanically superior ways in order to go about engaging the system, but many of them remove the challenges that are baked into the CR system and have you swinging far above your power curve. Its self-defeating to engage in that kind of playstyle.
But all of this is drifting into a kind of gaming philosophy, of which I often find myself opposed. No need to rehash it all. The conclusion I've reached is that you simply cannot change some people's mind about certain options until you hand walk them through the journey of playing such a character so they get to experience it directly.
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From my own viewpoint, I'd eagerly and enthusiastically play probably the most non-optimal combinations of Sorcerer4/Shaman4 with a Mystic Theurge, and I'd still classify it as worth consideration.
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The conclusion I've reached is that you simply cannot change some people's mind about certain options until you hand walk them through the journey of playing such a character so they get to experience it directly.
I agree with your philosophy on this 100%.
There are plenty of prestige classes (and archetypes, and even base classes) that mechanically focused players reject as too weak. There are only two prestige classes I've never seen anyone seriously consider playing. The Loremaster and the Prophet of Kalistrade. The Loremaster because it doesn't really do anything different. The "Secrets" class ability just gives you a limited choice of basic feats. The Prophet both because it truly is weak - it doesn't mechanically synergize with any class in even a reduced fashion - and because it doesn't have a great flavor fit with any base class. I myself took a long look at playing a Prophet of Kalistrade (despite the acknowledged weakness, I love the lore) but the problem was I couldn't come up with a base class to start with that would make for a fun character and story. Other people had the same problem creating a seamless backstory other than the generic "used to be a Blackjacket."
I don't remember who said the earliest version of this maxim, but the general idea has become a guidepost:
"It is definitely possible to build a bad character. But you don't need to have an optimized character to not be a bad character."
There are plenty of builds that can be effective enough, even if you yourself know of ways to make them mechanically better. Build the character that is fun for the group and for you, and who brings something unusual to the game experience instead of one who ends encounters instantly.