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Especially at lower levels before you start accessing more esoteric feat options, Solarian vs other martial comparisons I think comes down a lot to how often the GM gives you Nimbus Surges. An extra MAPless attack is an extremely load bearing feature in terms of power. If you're proccing it regularly you're outputting excellent damage, if you're not you're kind of featureless.
And in fairness you actually have some tools to help enable that. 1h d8 reach is a good weapon profile, graviton attuned strikes deny people the ability to step away from you, and if you take stellar rush both options mess with enemies a bit.
... tbh it's one of my (admittedly more vibes based) complaints about the class in that it doesn't really feel appropriate for reactive strike to be such a centralizing feature of its base kit.
Especially at lower levels before you start accessing more esoteric feat options, Solarian vs other martial comparisons I think comes down a lot to how often the GM gives you Nimbus Surges. An extra MAPless attack is an extremely load bearing feature in terms of power. If you're proccing it regularly you're outputting excellent damage, if you're not you're kind of featureless.
And in fairness you actually have some tools to help enable that. 1h d8 reach is a good weapon profile, graviton attuned strikes deny people the ability to step away from you, and if you take stellar rush both options mess with enemies a bit.
... tbh it's one of my (admittedly more vibes based) complaints about the class in that it doesn't really feel appropriate for reactive strike to be such a centralizing feature of its base kit.
Given how common guns/ranged weapons are in starfinder I suspect nimbus surge gets a good bit of use or whatever you are attacking gets stuck to you forced to use only melee attacks. With a lot of the graviton powers very often targets are going to be unable to step away from you so them having to use move actions is also going to be pretty common if they don't want to just let you keep punching them in the face. Even if they chose to not move and choose to use a melee attack you are effectively tanking that target for your team.
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Even if they chose to not move and choose to use a melee attack you are effectively tanking that target for your team.
While true, there is another rub here in that the Solarian is not super tanky. You're not squishy, but you don't have any special tanking features and your stats are stretched a little thin and solar shield is kind of weirdly terrible for some reason.
I've watched several Solarians try to land the perfect stellar rush to disrupt an enemy team only to then just immediately go to dying because they're now the optimal target for the 3-5 enemies they just dive bombed.
PF2 is kind of a bad system for solo tanks and the solarian isn't even really one, yet the specific dynamics of SF2 can be really isolating and dangerous for a frontliner.
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How does the Solarian compare to the Ranger?
A lot of people consider the Ranger Class to pretty much be exactly at the middle of the pack for Martials. The very definition of not exciting but perfectly usuable in all but the most hyper-optimzed campaigns.
If a class is as strong as it or stronger it's probably fine. If it's weaker it needs some help.
So where does the Solarian stand. On par? Above? Or Below?
I think they're actually pretty much on par with the Solarian having the edge.
Following is for low levels only since those are the only levels I've seen the Solarion in play.
Their base chassis is pretty much the same (10 hit points, martial saves, medium armor proficiency).
Rangers get Hunt Prey which gives a pretty minor and circumstantial out of combat boost and can be a significant pain to work around in combat. Solarions get their manifestations which can lead to some cool roleplaying stuff (See various stories around the iconic for Dae) but mechanically have no out of combat utility.
Then we get to the combat stuff. Solarions get Solar Nimbus which is absolutely huge. This is the reason a great many martials dip into Fighter. Many people think it is worth 2 class feats on many martials.
Rangers get their Edge. Both flurry and Precision add significantly to damage but introduce the action tax of Hunting Prey. Personally, I think I prefer Solar Nimbus but it is very, very close and depends a significant amount on what enemies you face (the action tax is MUCH worse when facing lots of opponents, MUCH better when facing only 1 or 2. And sometimes absent because you managed to Hunt Prey out of combat).
Solarions get their fancy weapon. Some of these options are very nice (D8 reach weapon, d8 agile weapon with another feat). some are just worse than buying actual weapons at least at low levels.
Solar Flare is quite good if you're making a melee/close range build, basically useless if you're going for a 2 handed weapon build.
And then you get to the feats. Twin takedown has about the same value as Binaric Assault. Bother are better in some ways and worse in others. Gravity weapon adds to damage better than anything the Solarion has, Stellar Reach adds control and insane movement. In both cases pets are better bought via an Archetype than by in class feats.
I think they're very comparable but I give the edge to the Solarion.
Obviously all of the above assumes that you want to play a Str based melee or very near range character. If you want to be Dex based or a long range character then Solarion is a terrible choice
Solarion vs. Ranger? Hmm... reading this thread has shifted my opinion somewhat, actually. I think Solarion is somewhat better in combat (Even if Nimbus Surge is a worse Reactive Strike, that's still very powerful with the right support), but the glaring issue is that the optimal way to play a low level Solarion focused on damage is to ignore your Solar Weapon and use a proper 2 handed weapon, which is quite frustrating.
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Okay here's a weird idea: what if starting from 5th level and every 4 levels afterward (5,9,13,17; coincidentally maps to each time proficiency for either strikes or class DC increases to expert and master), what if the solarian got a free feat? Seems the way to sneak in feats without needing too much page space to me.
I quite like the idea of giving the Solarian more opportunities for customization, and I definitely think there's room for it given how bare-bones their progression is at the moment. My main point of contention however is that I think the Solarian comes into their own in terms of flavor, if not balance, as they level up already, since their feats do end up giving them some standout abilities eventually. It's mainly at level 1 that I think the class comes the closest to being the "Fighter in space" that the Starfriends so desperately wanted to avoid with the Soldier.
I might get around to posting a full homebrew document for this, but my ideal change list for the Solarian would likely be along the following lines:
- Remove Solar Nimbus and make it a 6th-level feat. I don't think Reactive Strike can be a class-defining ability on two classes in 2e without leading to unfavorable comparisons one way or the other.
- Remove the solar flare manifestation, and instead make it a 1st-level feat that lets you manifest any common commercial-grade simple or martial gun, or any commercial-grade simple or martial gun available to you, which upgrades based on the solarian crystals you use for your solar weapon and can be reforged with Re-Forge Solar Weapon.
- Change the solar weapon manifestation in the same way to let you manifest any common commercial-grade simple or martial melee weapon, or any commercial-grade simple or martial gun available to you. Add a feat at level 6 to let you manifest advanced weapons as well (including advanced guns if you get the feat for ranged solar weapons).
- Give the class heavy armor proficiency, Shield Block, and a fly Speed equal to the highest between 30 feet and their land Speed at level 1. Solar Shield instead should let you manifest any common commercial-grade shield or any commercial-grade shield available to you, which upgrades based on the solarian crystals you already have and can be reforged with Re-Forge Solar Weapon.
- Give the class an AoE feature at level 1 that combines Black Hole and Supernova, allowing you to deal AoE damage with either a mass pull or persistent damage depending on your attunement. Potentially give the action the disharmony trait in exchange for either removing the frequency requirement or reducing the action cost down to one.
- In general, combine the feats that only give you a benefit in a single attunement whenever possible, and have feats consistently provide some basic benefit even when not attuned whenever possible, with a bonus based on your attunement.
- Rather than give the class legendary solar weapon Strikes at level 19, give the class more meat on its bones across odd levels. This can be through additional solarian feats as you suggested, and also benefits like being able to Re-Forge every time you Attune at high level. Alternatively, instead of bonus feats, increase the Solarian's fly Speed as they level up, and make them uniquely a master in every saving throw as well as Perception, so that they become hyper-mobile and a solid all-rounder. Alternatively, give them a legendary class DC so that they can truly shine at their AoE.
The TL;DR being that the Solarian in my opinion could start with just their solar weapon and not their solar flare or nimbus, but better defenses and mobility and a starting AoE, with more versatility to all of their potential solar manifestations. I think the class currently lacks a solid identity, and the above changes I think would have the class provide AoE as a central feature right out the box, while potentially also having the class shine through exceptional mobility in exchange for their melee-range limitations.
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Definitely agree that Two hand should do a d12 instead of a d10 if it's going to take up all our traits, OR Solar Weapon should be 3 traits, not two.
With the standard set by Greataxes vs. Dwarven Waraxes, two-hand d12 should just be one trait, honestly. Solar weapons, with the exception of a d8 one handed reach weapon*, are middle of the road advanced weapons.
I'm not crazy about giving out more traits because I feat we'll see most solar weapons homogenize because there's no 3-trait combo that competes with reach+X, wherease you can arguably justify X+Y vs. reach if you're using a shield.
*Which is comparable to the pre-nerf Gnomish Flickmace, perhaps the strongest advanced weapon out there.
With the standard set by Greataxes vs. Dwarven Waraxes, two-hand d12 should just be one trait, honestly. Solar weapons, with the exception of a d8 one handed reach weapon*, are middle of the road advanced weapons.
I'm not crazy about giving out more traits because I feat we'll see most solar weapons homogenize because there's no 3-trait combo that competes with reach+X, wherease you can arguably justify X+Y vs. reach if you're using a shield.
*Which is comparable to the pre-nerf Gnomish Flickmace, perhaps the strongest advanced weapon out there.
Honestly a middle of the road advanced weapon at full proficiency is still pretty legit. I do think though that if you let people chose the traits there are some combos that are just better options. One interesting thing though is the ability to have a D8 free hand weapon. If I recall most free hand weapons are d4 with maybe a d6 outlier.
I tend to think with the system as is you will mostly see people with the D8 reach option as their choice. The 1d10 option does not seem to have enough oomph to use two talent choices for a couple points of damage. Being able to threaten a bigger area with a one handed weapon is pretty strong.
I was genuinely surprised reading the Solarion that at no point do you get a 3rd trait for your solar weapon or unlock additional traits (other than that one feat that gives you Twin). Like the sample Solarion has an illegal build that suggests a third trait should be possible.
I honestly wonder if Reach and 2-hand d10 shouldn't just be one trait like the others, since the reason you make them two is "so you can't take them together" but a 2 handed reach weapon that does d10 is just something anybody with martial weapon proficiency can buy at the shop.
It's worth noting (though I'm sure most people are aware) that the solar weapon ability is the two-hand trait, not actually giving you a 2h weapon. Which probably accounts for some of its power budget weirdness.
Though even then d8/d10 2h doesn't conform to the 'advanced weapon' profile the solarian otherwise gets (there's literally an advanced weapon that's d8/d10 and also deadly, after all... which itself has the same profile as an older pf2 weapon + powered/tech). Plus most 2h trait weapons get two die sizes, not one... so it's undercosted on both ends kinda.
... But these are also very simple number comparisons and references to things that already exist in Paizo. Paizo apparently even has internal rules about weapon budgeting... so none of this should be news.
Maybe the more interesting question is why Paizo thought the Solarian's 2h option needed to be bad on purpose, especially given the class' generally low damage.
Given how common guns/ranged weapons are in starfinder I suspect nimbus surge gets a good bit of use or whatever you are attacking gets stuck to you forced to use only melee attacks.
Most mid+ level creatures seem to have even stronger melee than ranged, and many low level have ONLY melee. So that's not so much "forced to use", as it is "get to use".
Even so, especially with a reach weapon and a shield (phase shield leaves your hand free and is +2 AC), you are doing classic area denial and tanking ... much better the Solarian be eating those melee attacks / engagements than, say, the Mystic.
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I honestly wonder if Reach and 2-hand d10 shouldn't just be one trait like the others, since the reason you make them two is "so you can't take them together" but a 2 handed reach weapon that does d10 is just something anybody with martial weapon proficiency can buy at the shop.
It is a one handed reach weapon that does d8 and some bonus on every hit (difficult terrain or bonus damage). It is an EXCELLENT weapon that NOBODY can buy, even before the bonus effect.
The two hand trait (as noted above) is just that and is... not worth the squeeze. Even if you COULD take it in combination with reach, I wouldn't. Much rather have Trip, Shove, or Free Hand.
Given how common guns/ranged weapons are in starfinder I suspect nimbus surge gets a good bit of use or whatever you are attacking gets stuck to you forced to use only melee attacks.Most mid+ level creatures seem to have even stronger melee than ranged, and many low level have ONLY melee. So that's not so much "forced to use", as it is "get to use".
Even so, especially with a reach weapon and a shield (phase shield leaves your hand free and is +2 AC), you are doing classic area denial and tanking ... much better the Solarian be eating those melee attacks / engagements than, say, the Mystic.
Yup given in a starfinder group the solarian has a high %chance of being "the tank" or at least the most tanky person there if you can get up there and shut down ranged attacks vs your party and are up in their opponents grill forcing them to respond to them that is pretty handy.
But this ability is also why I think almost all solarians are going to wind up with d8 reach as their solarian option. A D8 weapon with reach while still being able to use a full shield and probably have the feat solarian shield available as well means you could pretty easily sacrifice your solarian shield block some damage inflict the blow back from that shield breakage and still have their normal real shield ready to go.
As a follow-up to some of the above, I've been working on a "Solarian Unchained" brew that I think I'll be ready to share in the homebrew section too. The TL;DR is that the Solarian gets to fly, use AoE, and manifest specific items rather than collections of traits, all from level 1, and feats are redone for a variety of reasons, ultimately favoring stance-dancing between attunements and big fancy flourishes.
In my experience playtesting this version, the class played much more consistently for a number of different reasons: because they get stuff like heavy armor, Shield Block, and mobility right off the bat, they started off much more functional and it didn't feel like they were feat-taxed in the same way as the official class. Because they had stuff like hyper-mobile flight and wide-ranging AoE as a martial class in their core features, their contributions also stood out a lot better from other classes in my opinion, not just in Starfinder but in 2e in general. I personally experienced a greater diversity in builds, if only because you could use two-handed solar weapons, and from my personal assessment, the class was actually still on the lower end of balance for SF2e classes, even if they were a lot stronger than they are now. I don't think this is the One True Way of improving the Solarian by any stretch, but it did work quite well at my table.
All of which is to say, ultimately, that regardless of the above homebrew, the Solarian in my opinion has a lot of room for improvement. Not only is the class undertuned, I'd say they're underdeveloped in general: they currently don't have a real specialty other than being a melee class in Starfinder, they have this massive untapped potential for being an iconic primal non-caster class for Starfinder that just isn't acknowledged at all, and there's just tons more cosmic phenomena to draw inspiration from, like firing bursts of gamma rays or rotating like a pulsar. That a robust system like 2e lets this class be more or less functional isn't enough in my opinion, not when this class has the potential to be really good.
To answer the thread title: IMO, slightly.
At least the Solar Flare has a range increment now, instead of a fixed range like in the playtest. Not needing a free hand and the ability of both the Solar Weapon(s) and Solar Flare to benefit from the same solarian crystals can provide some nice cost savings as the character levels up.
For "tanking," you can always take the human ancestry for Natural Ambition to have both Solar Shield and Stellar Rush at 1st level, then take Solar Rampart at 2nd to wear heavy armor; or even take Sentinel Dedication (since SF2e is compatible with PF2e) at 2nd for heavy armor and Armor Specialist at 6th level from the archetype (to gain resistance equal to 2 + armor's resilience against acid, cold, fire, and electricity damage when wearing hidden soldier armor; which also has the Bulwark trait).
Alternately, you can branch out by taking the multiclassed kineticist archetype (as a solarian will probably want a high Con anyway) to add impulses as area attack options. As I mentioned shortly after the playtest, Solar Detonation (available at 16th through the kineticist archetype) is a better option (even with the slightly less damage and the Incapacitation trait) than Big Bang (solarian 14th level feat), especially since it can be used much more often (spend an action to reactivate the kinetic gate, so basically once every other round; instead of waiting an hour).
For more offensive options with the Solar Weapon, you can also lean on PF2e for "solarian fighting styles:"
1) A "fun" option could be a scrabbler skittermander that's Hyper and literally climbs the walls, while also taking Twin Weapons and the Dual-Weapon Warrior Dedication (plus Flensing Slice at 8th and Two-Weapon Flurry at 16th).
2) A way to "improve" taking the two hand 1d10 version of the Solar Weapon could be to start with a Large ancestry (such as dragonkin or sarcesian) and take the Mauler Dedication (although the dedication is basically a feat-tax) for access to Slam Down, Crashing Slam, Hammer Quake, and Avalanche Strike (the last especially for a dragonkin that takes the 17th level ancestry feat to become Huge).
Essentially, the compatibility with PF2e means you may not need to reinvent the wheel. You can just not keep SF2e and PF2e in separate silos.
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The solarian is my favorite class, I think having it my first SF-class in 1e did a lot.
I'm a bit sad, that the need for CHA is gone, but I guess Paizo really wanted a STR-based class to cover all ability scores in the Player Core. Just a bit of personal disappointment though, now onto my feedback on the class.
As usual, it's hard to analyze a PF2/SF2 out of context and it would need several SFS-sessions or adventure paths to get a feeling how the devs wanted the game to be played and therefore put the Solarian in good/bad-terms within context.
I can also think that a lot of PF2 bias is easily sneaking into one's judgment, as there are many small differences between the two games that can change a lot of how the game feels to play (like how weapon and armor upgrades can be easily changed and therefore parties can adapt to several situations at higher play with little trouble).
I try to get PF2 out of my brain, ignore the playtest (as this is what we got), and list some thoughts of the class.
- This class can fluently change between melee and ranged combat, as its signature ranged weapon doesn't need a hand to use.
- It only uses one action from going totally unprepared to fully usable (by calling all manifestations)
- It's the only SF class that has something like reactive strike from the get-go
- It adds to the vanilla Strike additional effects
- With the two modes, most feats and abilities are doing double-time
- That also means, this class has a treacherous high skill floor, as swapping between modes is always an action (though feats allows to do it while doing something else)
- Graviton rewards understanding of the battlefield and foresight
- Photon rewards risk management
- Using only one mode may seem easier, but limit feat choices and combat options
- Having the right mode for the moment takes some foresight and there is no emergency button to correct a mistake
- This class has the tools to be a great midrange combatant. Survivability, fluent change between ranged/melee, crowd control, mobility, and even some damage peaks.
- There are several feats that compete with higher level ones, especially as they scale by level (which is one benefit of having supernova and black hole as two different feats with their own cooldown)
- The lack of a subclass makes me want to create one via feats, but if I reject that urge, it can be a very versatile class that has great tools for many situations and good ones in basically every other.
- You need Solarian Crystals for flare and weapon, but whenever your main weapon gets a better one, you can put the old one in your secondary weapon
- The class lacks a intuitive playstyle, as it may have too many combat options, depending on the build. Be it picking up ranged enemies, chaining down melee enemies, going into the midst to clutter them all and/or explode into their face. All other class start with defining features (like get 'em, the network, aim, primary target, and the quantum field) which makes players wrap their ideas about these key abilities. The solarian gets a toolbox without a direction, and most of these tools are substitutes to already existing general items with just a little twist to them.
- Despite the high skill floor, I don't think it has a higher ceiling than other classes.
I could probably list more, and I could also list a lot of things I would have handled differently or would have loved to have (like having reforge solar weapon a single action that can be used every 10 minutes instead), but now to my feedback to the original question: Is the solarian undertuned?
If you look for damage, yes. If you look for field control, also yes. Yet it fits nicely with the other classes and if you can make smart choices in combat and during leveling, it does pack a lot of punch.
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Just levelled up my solarion and was looking at options in the next few levels.
There is no way that a class that has access to supernova and black hole at level 4 can be considered undertuned (I strongly suspect the scaling on supernova will be scaled back at some point).
I agree that it is aggravating that at early levels you're often far better off using mundane weapons or shields than your manifestations, you're better off taking the soldier archetype than solar rampart, etc. If you naively assume that the cool solarion abilities are your best choices you WILL underperform. This class has lots of poor options, at least at low levels of play.
But with a little bit of care and attention the Solarion is a quite good and effective class. Closest PF2 analogue is probably the Kineticist as they both can make good switch hitters, do AoE and control. Both have advantages over each other.
Solar Flare's scaling is very good, but it's not party friendly if you have another melee fighter, and lone melee characters are very vulnerable to getting ganged up on. So I suspect that's why it does as much damage as it does.
It seems to me that they're undertunes when they try to use the lightsaber but really good if they ditch that paradigm and grab a reach weapon for the action economy.
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There is no way that a class that has access to supernova and black hole at level 4 can be considered undertuned (I strongly suspect the scaling on supernova will be scaled back at some point).
I sort of disagree. Supernova is a nice feat, but I also think that if broadly speaking a class doesn't work right unless you take certain specific load bearing feat choices it's still probably fair to call the class generally undertuned. The really good classes in SF/PF2 have a wide variety of options because they just work on a basic level.
Like there's no way we can call a class healthily balanced when the advice starts with picking some very specific feats and probably ignoring a bunch of your core class features in the process.
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I sort of disagree. Supernova is a nice feat, but I also think that if broadly speaking a class doesn't work right unless you take certain specific load bearing feat choices it's still probably fair to call the class generally undertuned.
There is no way that a class that has access to supernova and black hole at level 4 can be considered undertuned (I strongly suspect the scaling on supernova will be scaled back at some point).
I definitely see where you’re coming from and completely agree that the class punishes lots of choices.
But I think undertuned isn’t the right word to describe that. Even in this thread people are suggesting rules changes designed to raise the ceiling of the class and I don’t think those are desirable. Changes to raise the floor (and there are several of those also in this thread) would be good ones imo.
But we’re definitely arguing semantics here. I think we both view the class more or less in the same light
I'd still say that a class that's undertuned if you don't pick a certain overtuned feat would still be undertuned, though I also don't think Black Hole or Supernova really make up for the Solarian's deficiencies: during the playtest, the class had those abilities by default at level 1 based on their subclass, and they still underperformed heavily in my experience. Black Hole in particular was undeniably strong when it comboed with a Soldier or Witchwarper, but it did not single-handedly redeem a class that otherwise struggled with basic functionality, including getting into Black Hole range to begin with.
I do however think that the above does feed into the Solarian's feat taxes: if you want to close gaps adequately, which I'd say is a pretty default assumption in a ranged-centric game, you'll need Stellar Rush, because your base mobility is bog-standard. Because you're a Strength class, heavy armor proficiency is a no-brainer, and so Solar Rampart is also a no-brainer. Because Black Hole and Supernova are essential to giving you a powerful burst of AoE damage and crowd control and are leagues above alternative feats, they become must-picks too. There's a serious risk that as more players get to grips with the class, we'll be seeing more and more Solarians that'll look almost exactly the same up until level 6 at least. Rather than have lots of manifestations that don't necessarily add that much unique gameplay to the class, I'd be keen to see some of those feat taxes removed by giving the Solarian baseline access to stuff that they can be reasonably expected to have by default, such as heavy armor proficiency, AoE, mobility, and Shield Block.
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I'd still say that a class that's undertuned if you don't pick a certain overtuned feat would still be undertuned,
I largely agree with you. You think the class needs more than I think it does but it could definitely do with some quality of life improvements.
But at this point in the development cycle we're just not going to see huge wholesale changes. The best we can hope for (and I think this is possible) is some extra feats and maybe an automatic upgrade to the number of traits a Solarian weapon gets at L5 or the like (which totally doesn't address the issue :-()
As for mobility, the heavy armor problem goes away at L3 with an armor upgrade. But yeah, things that boost speed are going to be really valuable to Solarions.
Which leads back to my (our?) basic conclusion - its fine when built "well" but there are probably only a few cases which can be considered "well" built.