I am playing a character who is about to have an ioun stone implanted, and part of the process involves fasting for between 3 and 8 days (min is 3, each extra adds a +1 to the charisma check at the end, max is +5). My character has a ring of sustenance and only eats or drinks socially, but does he count as fasting if he is wearing the ring for those 3 days? Along the same path, is it possible to implant a clear spindle ioun stone since it has the same "sustains the creature without food or water" that the ring of sustenance does?
I would count that as fasting for almost all purposes. I would require a situation to expressly state that such methods are not permitted. It is not eating or consuming (though most fasting does allow simple or bland items or at least a small portion every few days, each instance differs).
the Ioun Stone Rules are from the transition period between D&D 3.5 to PF1. It is very likely that some GM interpretation will be involved.
I have had PCs do this in PFS which is a bit more conservative format. It is not that difficult 'as is'.
Does magical sustanace negate fasting or count as continual fasting?
I think the point of the mundane process is to balance bonuses from the fasting process with negatives from the starvation/dehydration rules.
At low level the skill check bonuses are not that high and likely fasting bonuses will be needed.
However, a few 'newer' spells like True Skill change things. There are bonuses from Diviner's school power.
From a Game Balance perspective they're slotless so this is all about preventing theft or making it take a round per stone. I don't know that adding difficulty is necessary given *2 cost.
I would not allow days with a ring of sustenance to help with the check. the whole point is to go without and to risk the damage and being fatigued from the starvation rules.
IMO: unless you are taking that risk, then you don't get the benefit.
Why is fasting giving a bonus? If the fasting is supposed to have some sort of mental or spiritual benefit using magic to fast would not help. If the reason for the bonus is a physical reason like fasting before surgery, it would help.
I think the idea is that you're establishing a kind of bond with the ioun stone in a spiritual and metaphysical sense. I would agree with the others that say if you're potentially experiencing the symptoms of starvation, you're not doing the needed bits to bond with the ioun stone.
That said, I've never like the idea that you needed to bond with a magical rock to implant it in your body.
But it is I guess to balance out getting these bonuses in a form that can be stolen or sundered and also isn't floating obviously around your head.
I would not allow days with a ring of sustenance to help with the check. the whole point is to go without and to risk the damage and being fatigued from the starvation rules.
IMO: unless you are taking that risk, then you don't get the benefit.
But would it count as fasting for the first 3 days that are required? Also, if you are bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, does that just become a stone that you cannot bond with since having it active would automatically prevent you from truly fasting? Don't get me wrong, my character is not bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, but I'm not going to say it isn't a future possibility... I just have an orange prism that is higher up the list.
I would not allow days with a ring of sustenance to help with the check. the whole point is to go without and to risk the damage and being fatigued from the starvation rules.
IMO: unless you are taking that risk, then you don't get the benefit.
But would it count as fasting for the first 3 days that are required? Also, if you are bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, does that just become a stone that you cannot bond with since having it active would automatically prevent you from truly fasting? Don't get me wrong, my character is not bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, but I'm not going to say it isn't a future possibility... I just have an orange prism that is higher up the list.
I would say during the bonding process you probably don't have it actively affecting you. Normally for a ioun stone to be affecting you, it needs to orbit your head. And nothing about the bonding process implies it needs to be doing that.
I would not allow days with a ring of sustenance to help with the check. the whole point is to go without and to risk the damage and being fatigued from the starvation rules.
IMO: unless you are taking that risk, then you don't get the benefit.
But would it count as fasting for the first 3 days that are required? Also, if you are bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, does that just become a stone that you cannot bond with since having it active would automatically prevent you from truly fasting? Don't get me wrong, my character is not bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, but I'm not going to say it isn't a future possibility... I just have an orange prism that is higher up the list.
I would say during the bonding process you probably don't have it actively affecting you. Normally for a ioun stone to be affecting you, it needs to orbit your head. And nothing about the bonding process implies it needs to be doing that.
Quote from source: "Binding a stone to a single owner is a lengthy process. To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him."
some responses will be more creative than others as they relate individual home game experiences and advice. It is an effort to be mostly helpful by example or advice as they explain their interpretation and implementation of RAW.
It is a Game and the creative descriptions require some interpretation. So there's always going to be variance around a central common understanding or what RAW says and how to implement/execute those rules and descriptions in a game. Welcome to language and readin 'n writin sans most arithmatic... 8^)
I would not allow days with a ring of sustenance to help with the check. the whole point is to go without and to risk the damage and being fatigued from the starvation rules.
IMO: unless you are taking that risk, then you don't get the benefit.
But would it count as fasting for the first 3 days that are required? Also, if you are bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, does that just become a stone that you cannot bond with since having it active would automatically prevent you from truly fasting? Don't get me wrong, my character is not bonding with a clear spindle ioun stone, but I'm not going to say it isn't a future possibility... I just have an orange prism that is higher up the list.
I would say during the bonding process you probably don't have it actively affecting you. Normally for a ioun stone to be affecting you, it needs to orbit your head. And nothing about the bonding process implies it needs to be doing that.
Quote from source: "Binding a stone to a single owner is a lengthy process. To begin the ritual, the owner meditates with but a single stone in orbit around him."
Fair enough, I missed that.
But honestly I'd ignore it in the case of the clear spindle. Or say that during the bonding process you don't gain the benefit.
In any event, I'd let you bond with the clear spindle, but you still have to suffer from starvation to get the bonus or even attempt to bond.
paraphrased from pg45-46 Seeker of Secrets
Implanting Ioun Stones
Have an ioun stone and a relatively secure place to perform the ritual. A medical professional/healer to perform the surgery is recommended.
1) start ritual with single stone and fast(no food or water) for 3 days. Make Cha Chk DC 20, cannot take "10". Success the stone may be implanted. Failure the stone can not be implanted and the process must be start again.
1a) The ritual can be lengthened gaining +([days fasting -3], max +5) crcm bonus to Cha Chk. The user may suffer from starvation & thirst.
2) Implanting takes 1 hr and a Heal Chk DC 25 (30 if the user is performing the surgery) and Know(arcana) DC 25 Chk. Success on both checks inflicts 1d2 Con dmg and implants the ioun stone in the skin at the desired location leaving only the top eighth surface of the stone exposed(on the surface) and imparts the full benefits of the stone. Failure of either check inflicts 1d6 Con dmg and implantation fails, the implanting can be tried again.
Implanted ioun stones cannot be targeted by CM Sunder, cannot be removed without consent (and surgery) or requires removal of the body part/limb.
=== end of spoiler ===
3 successful checks are needed on the start of the 4th day. Cha 20, Heal(25/30), and Know(Arcana) 25. It can take longer.
There's no time between Bonding and Implanting but one assumes they happen relatively in succession.
Spells (below 5th level here) and Magic Items can be used but another ioun stone cannot.
Burst of Insight:T1
Heightened Awareness:D1
Tap Inner Beauty:T1 True Skill:D1
Ancestral Communion:D2
Bestow Insight:E2-3(human)
Cleromancy:D2-3
Investigative Mind:E2
Page-Bound Epiphany:D2
Revelation:D2-3 {tricky}
Visualization of The Mind:T2 {long casting time}
Allied Cloak:A3 via Aid Another
Eagle's Splendor:T3
Harrowing:D3
Heroism:E3 {stackable}
Hypercognition:D2-4
Prayer:E3
Akashic Communion:D3-4
Bit of Luck:K3-4(catfolk)
Divination:D4 {indirectly helpful}
Harvest Knowledge:D4
Kiss of the First World:T4
Obviously there's nothing specific about it in the rules, but as a GM, no, using something that makes it so you don't need to eat wouldn't count as fasting.
I would rule that it's a spiritual-like connection caused by the sacrifice and weakness... negating the risk negates the ability to connect with the stone.
But, really, this all comes down to: Ask you GM.
Nothing here will give you a solid answer; your GM can.
If your GM rules that the important thing is that there's strife, and challenge, and hardship, and it has to be painful in order for the connection, then sure.
I can't read it into the writing though. This isn't Rules, so I can only go by the normal term and importance of fasting, and work it into the specific task at hand (the ioun stone bonding, not spiritual enlightenment or absolution of sins or preparing for major surgery or any other reason for fasting)
Implanting Ioun Stones wrote:
Extending the fasting increases the chance of bonding with the stone, but the character may suffer the effects of starvation and thirst if he persists after several failures
It doesn't imply that suffering from thirst and starvation is a requirement.
Space Saver:
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You need to determine if 'fasting' is just a shorter way than them having to write out 'don't eat or drink any food or water or anything for three days'. If they don't eat for three days, whether you call it fasting, or deprivation, or a cleanse, or a starvation, or just being poor... they didn't eat for three days.
It might be cheating to eat a goodberry or a heroes' feast because even if those fulfil your needs... you're still eating. Let's say you ate a magical egg two days prior that said, "If you eat this egg, you don't need to eat or drink for a week."? Or if you had a trait or quality that said, "You can go twice as long without eating and drinking,"? Is the GM expected to say, "Oh, it's easier for you... so I am requiring you to fast twice as long than everyone else because you're a camel?" If you feel that's appropriate, that's fine.
A plant person that only needs sunlight for sustenance is not 'cheating', because they aren't 'eating', even if they have to root themselves. Now, if they need water... a GM might call whether them soaking it up through their roots is 'drinking', but I think it isn't (since terms are written for normal situations, unless your GM lets them imbibe or 'drink' a potion by soaking their feet in it, maybe they do.)
But then you could legitimately just say, "Well, normally the check for going without food or water is base 15... but because you're a higher level, and put your points in Con, and took Great Fortitude... I am just upping the DC so it's like none of it matters... because it's supposed to be hard." Again, if you think the important part is that it has to be painful and challenging... fine. I don't feel that way.
An ability that restricts whether you have to eat or not isn't cheating unless the 'contest' or challenge says so (ie. GM). If the ritual was, "You need to spend a week only using your right eye to see," Then is it cheating to wear a blindfold on your left eye... because that's easier than having to purposefully keep it closed? Or someone who doesn't have a left eye doesn't count as seeing out their right eye? I can see the argument for a cyclops who doesn't/never had a right, but does someone who lost their left eye not count as seeing out of their right eye?
If the challenge is, "Defeat an opponent with unarmed attacks," is a monk 'cheating' because they have it easier? No, not unless the challenge says so.
Or, "Kill an ogre with a knife." Just because you have an ogre-slaying knife, that gets +9 against ogres... suddenly having to kill eight extras ogres just because it's easier, whether because of the knife or you've leveled up, just feels inappropriate.
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But that's only my opinion, I don't see anything in the challenge that says because you don't eat or drink (or even can go longer without, making it slightly easier), that it negates the act just because they use the word 'fasting'.
