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I understand that Starfinder 2nd Edition has been made to be much closer to Pathfinder 2nd Edition in its mechanics and play experience.
What I want to know are what are the little things (and big things) that are different in a way that a person coming over from Pathfinder might not expect? Are there any surprising changes, differences, unintuitive new rules, or avoidable assumptions?
As I slowly venture into this new game setting, what mines and pitfalls can you help my table and I avoid?
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I understand that Starfinder 2nd Edition has been made to be much closer to Pathfinder 2nd Edition in its mechanics and play experience.
What I want to know are what are the little things (and big things) that are different in a way that a person coming over from Pathfinder might not expect? Are there any surprising changes, differences, unintuitive new rules, or avoidable assumptions?
As I slowly venture into this new game setting, what mines and pitfalls can you help my table and I avoid?
A couple different things:
1) Two new skills: Piloting and Computers. Piloting uses Dex, Computers uses Int. Both skills also have their own feats to go with them.
2) More guns. Lots of guns. Not all of them having the longest range, but definitely meaning a lot more shooting, and thus, more need for cover and Dexterity.
3) Access to flying at lower levels. Obviously, this is offset by a greater number of guns. There is also some debate whether the flight gained applies to all situations (like when in space).
4) Space. There are rules for being in space. These rules include whether or not more your armor counts as a space suit and dealing with zero-gravity.
5) Starfinder's classes are no longer (for the ones this applies to) [Insert name of Pathfinder Class]... IN SPACE!!! They have abilities and mechanics that set them apart from their Pathfinder brethren now that the two games are cross-compatible.
6) Easier access to NON-physical damage. You have heat rays, freeze rays, lightning guns, sonic weapons, plasma blades.
7) For now, don't really bother with the Unconventional Weaponry ancestry feat, it's clearly there for Future-proofing.
8) You'll have to wait a while for spaceship combat (how long, do not know. GM Core contains rules for Cinematic Spaceship Combat, which doesn't involve much crunch, as I understand it).
That's all I can think of at the moment.
===Edit===
9) Oh, I just remembered: Weapon in Starfinder use upgrades rather than runes, unless the weapon is Archaic (i.e. from Pathfinder). You can still upgrade a weapons item bonus to attacks and bonus dice to damage, you just need to use a somewhat different upgrade system.
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10) 3 new conditions: Glitching, Suppressed, and untethered.
11) In PF2e, if you meet the most famous Undead NPC, you run in fear; in SF2e, you hope you can get their autograph.
12) No one in PF2e ever used a grenade to blow their way out from the inside of a giant space shark, while streaming it live to the infophere.
13) Really cool treasure, like a Strawberry Machine Cake thermos. Even cooler if you have the lunchbox but lost the thermos.
14) And there you are. SF2e doesn't have or need detailed overland maps like PF2e has for the Inter Sea region. You just get on a ship and there you are.
15) Every object in SF2e that has an energy source could become a hazard.
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9) Oh, I just remembered: Weapon in Starfinder use upgrades rather than runes, unless the weapon is Archaic (i.e. from Pathfinder). You can still upgrade a weapons item bonus to attacks and bonus dice to damage, you just need to use a somewhat different upgrade system.
I would also mention the upgrade slots on weapons. I'm not entirely sure what those are equivalent to. But since you get them as early as level 0 items, they are at least faster to access than Weapon Property Runes.
Same goes for armor.
The upgrade system is equivalent to Pathfinder's. It is just given as a package rather than having to get two separate runes. The difference being that you can't create a +0 Major Striking weapon like you can in Pathfinder. The Starfinder upgrade system forces the typical PF2 rune progression.
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2) More guns. Lots of guns. Not all of them having the longest range, but definitely meaning a lot more shooting, and thus, more need for cover and Dexterity.
I just want to add a 2a) for expectation management. Yes, ranged weapons are more common. However, they are still noticeably weaker than melee weapons and the range increments are pretty short for such advanced technology.
Similar to PF2e vs. PF1e, ranged attacks in SF2e require more effort than with SF1e to be "good."
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Multi-armed ancestries; while they can only make strikes with weapons in their active 2 hands, climb and grapple have no such restrictions.
TBF, multi-armed ancestries just give a restricted equivalent of the Lightning Swap fighter feat, for the most part
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In general, they've done a remarkably good job of
1) Making it mechanically nearly the same as PF2 so there is almost no learning curve beyond learning the details of your class/ancestry and adjusting to the new Ranged Meta (EVERYTHING has a decent ranged attack, some combats might take place completely at range. Combine that with EVERYTHING sapient has an AoE attack (grenade, if nothing else))
2) Changing the feel of the game significantly so that it FEELS like Science Fiction at least as much as a pure fantasy. Obviously, some of this is going to be subjective. But, for me at least, so far even the "dungeon crawls" have felt quite different than their PF2 equivalents.
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I just want to add a 2a) for expectation management. Yes, ranged weapons are more common. However, they are still noticeably weaker than melee weapons and the range increments are pretty short for such advanced technology.
Ranges are really surprisingly short on a lot of options. It surprised me that like, the PF2 arquebus outranges every Starfinder weapon by a decent amount.
... While in general you're right about ranged and melee, it's worth noting that as some counterbalance, the melee options in Starfinder seem to be a bit lower damage. Melee operatives are limited to agile/finesse which tend to have smaller die. Solarians have a weak strike booster and an average die weapon, melee soldiers lack single target damage boosters, and envoys have basically no personal damage upgrades at all.
This makes mid range builds feel a bit less overshadowed, but also means melee martials can feel a bit flat without their gimmicks working compared to their PF counterparts
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I agree that SF2 firearms ranges are much too short. I suspect that this is because of map size limitations in published adventures. I do know that when I run SF2, I'll be considering increasing those numbers so that I can reasonably run encounters that feel far more modern/dystopian/sci-fi to make them feel different from PF2's close-combat encounters.
I also think that there will be a lot more actions spent on taking cover in SF2. I know that I plan to use cover a lot for my adversaries when I run it. That bonus to AC may well encourage a more fire and maneuver style of play, which, while not only being more realistic, would be another element to make SF2 and PF2 combat feel different.
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Another difference is the size of the setting. Starfinder covers an entire galaxy, and Pathfinder takes place for the most part on one planet, and sometimes on the other planets in the same star system that is the Pact Worlds in Starfinder. I don't know Pathfinder lore very well, if there are any exceptions to that, I'm guessing that it's very rare to travel beyond the Golarion star system. Note, I'm not counting planar travel in this.
Question for Pathfinder players: Did all the planes from PF make it into SF?
There's no Drift plane in Pathfinder. Besides being a mode of FTL travel, I also see it as a great GM or adventure writer tool that can be used to explain all kinds of crazy things happening. IT's also a great excuse to explain why a PC disappeared when a Player missed a game session, then have that PC reappear next week.
Starfinder will likely never have a book like Pathfinder Lost Omens: Absalom, City of Lost Omens, because Absalom Station has hundreds of levels. The maps alone would fill the book. Starfinder needs to cover more locations but wiht less detail, largely because in Starfinder you don't have to connect the dots to travel by foot for 3 weeks to get to some place.
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Question for Pathfinder players: Did all the planes from PF make it into SF?
There's no Drift plane in Pathfinder. Besides being a mode of FTL travel, I also see it as a great GM or adventure writer tool that can be used to explain all kinds of crazy things happening. IT's also a great excuse to explain why a PC disappeared when a Player missed a game session, then have that PC reappear next week.
Starfinder will likely never have a book like Pathfinder Lost Omens: Absalom, City of Lost Omens, because Absalom Station has hundreds of levels. The maps alone would fill the book. Starfinder needs to cover more locations but wiht less detail, largely because in Starfinder you don't have to connect the dots to travel by foot for 3 weeks to get to some place.
Yes, although they weren't really that elaborated on, as greater focus was given to space and the planets/systems within it. It was mentioned that the Drift Crisis caused some ships traveling in the drift, during the crash, to get shunted into other planes instead of space.
Eh... I wouldn't be surprised if Starfinder 2e had books created to cover the various worlds in more depth.
Granted, I do agree that they wouldn't include a meticulously detailed map of every location within Absalom Station
...especially since Absalom Station came into existence DURING the Gap. And therefore details about are unknown even in-universe.
But I can imagine they might detail sections of the station, how the government works, and other details (and plot hooks) that could further flesh the place out.
Especially since the Starstone being contained within it makes it the hub of galactic trade.
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I agree that SF2 firearms ranges are much too short. I suspect that this is because of map size limitations in published adventures.
I mean, PF2 adventures tend to be even more cramped and that didn't stop them from publishing weapons with much longer ranges than anything in SF.
If anything, the trend toward small maps makes it easier to give away big ranges, because it's less of a power enhancer. Like if your biggest battlemap is 20 squares across bumping up a seeker rifle's range up from 120 to even something wild like 500 does literally nothing.
Having high tech sniping systems get outranged by black powder rifles is just a design and storytelling choice.
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Two things I don't see mentioned above are Augmentations and Armor Mods. These kind of fill the same rolls magic items often do in Pathfinder, but use different sets of limitations and often entirely new / more appropriate (to both setting and mechanics) functionality. And you can still use magic items - the game has them, just not many in the core book, and it's up to the GM to decide if / which ones carry over from PF2E (or maybe get rethemed as tech).
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Another very big difference between guns in Starfinder 2e vs Pathfinder 2e: Guns in Starfinder can have ammo magazines.
What that means is that most guns in Starfinder can be used to fire multiple shots instead of reloading after a single shot (unless that Pathfinder gun has repeating, in which case you need to spend 3 actions reloading it once it runs out of ammo).
I agree that SF2 firearms ranges are much too short. I suspect that this is because of map size limitations in published adventures.I mean, PF2 adventures tend to be even more cramped and that didn't stop them from publishing weapons with much longer ranges than anything in SF.
If anything, the trend toward small maps makes it easier to give away big ranges, because it's less of a power enhancer. Like if your biggest battlemap is 20 squares across bumping up a seeker rifle's range up from 120 to even something wild like 500 does literally nothing.
Having high tech sniping systems get outranged by black powder rifles is just a design and storytelling choice.
I feel like the real problem isn't the range on the SF2e guns, it's that that Arquebus has no business having 150 ft increments... or at least a Reload of 2.
Also, Lia Wynn, you're reminding me of this video: Eldritch Spear Distant Spell Sniping
I know the argument isn't fully comparable (not just because it's about DnD 5e but about spells as opposed to guns). But I think it raises a similar (if different point) as Squiggit.
Also, another big difference is:
Area Fire and Auto Fire
Two different two action attacks that can be made using an Area or Automatic weapon.
With Area Fire, your gun basically shots in an area (burst, cone, or line) that forces enemies within the area to make Reflex saves against your Class DC instead of making attack rolls.
Auto Fire is similar, except it's an option instead of a ranged attack, and always a cone.
Good for enemies with high AC, but terrible reflexes.
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It's also worth noting that the Starfinder 2e developers seem a lot more comfortable in having fewer restrictions on mechanics. This is the natural result of 5+ years of making PF2E and a bunch of remaster changes, but it's a lot more noticable in SF2E from the ground up.
I've seen a lot of people online come into SF2E with their expectations of what Pathfinder 2e content looks like, and it inevitably ends up in asking "this is too good to be true, right?". Multiple Arms are a great example- I've seen quite a few people be shocked that they're better than just Lightning Swap!
I don't really wanna call it "power creep" or something silly like that, because it's not like it's just one random gameplay element that's way better than everything else. Starfinder 2e is pretty internally balanced- not a higher ceiling of power, but def a higher floor of power. It makes it a lot easier for new players to hop in and have fun, I've noticed.
Just look at astrazoan compared to PF2 ancestries with shape change abilities. With the astrazoan right out of the box their shape change works like how you would expect something like this to work. You can lean into it even further with feats. Basicaly if you ever thought a friendly version of john carpenters the thing would make a good PC astrazoan are your people.
It does not make them super powerful but it makes them not feel overly leashed/constrained just for potential balance sake in case somebody finds some weird combo of other things.
I think the other biggest thing I have seen play wise is guns. Having guns with a reasonable amount of shots before you have to reload has made weapon attacks by casters a LOT more common. If you are using save spells having a nice 1 attack blast with your pistol feels very appropriate and effective.
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Multi-armed ancestries; while they can only make strikes with weapons in their active 2 hands, climb and grapple have no such restrictions.TBF, multi-armed ancestries just give a restricted equivalent of the Lightning Swap fighter feat, for the most part
It is better than that. You can still hold things in your non active hands and they also can count as a free hand. So if you have a two handed weapon on a kasatha you still have two free hands for climbing or abilities that require a free hand. They also make things like needing to hold things like your comm link, took kits, medical kits while still wielding your weapons.
It is not a massive boost in power but it is an example of one of the changes in SF2 where they are more willing to unleash things a bit while still being pretty well balanced.
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The Starstone no longer makes gods.
It is a infinite power source and the best drift beacon in the universe (followed closely by the Aeon throne). So there is plenty of reason that conquering empires want to get their hands on it.
Nobody actually knows if the Starstone still makes gods, because as far as anyone can tell, nobody's touched the thing since well before the Gap. It's a heck of a lot harder to get to now, because it's sealed inside the bowels of a colossal space station that's only partially been mapped.
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Nobody actually knows if the Starstone still makes gods, because as far as anyone can tell, nobody's touched the thing since well before the Gap. It's a heck of a lot harder to get to now, because it's sealed inside the bowels of a colossal space station that's only partially been mapped.The Starstone no longer makes gods.
It is a infinite power source and the best drift beacon in the universe (followed closely by the Aeon throne). So there is plenty of reason that conquering empires want to get their hands on it.
That, and the fact that the station itself was build during the Gap.
The Gap is a period of centuries (how long? No one can be sure), where things happened, but nobody has any clue WHAT happened exactly, because there are no records of what happened.
No memories. (this REALLY freaked out the elves)
No writings.
No recordings.
Just a huge GAP with no information.
All that can be certain are a few things: Golarion is gone. There is a gigantic space station occupying its orbit.
Where did Golarion go? Nobody knows.
The gods might know... too bad they return all questions about the Gap and Lost Golarion with, "Everything is fine, nothing is broken".
TLDR: The Gap is a massive chunk of history that disappeared.
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That just means it's tens of centuries, still correct! It's longer than an elven lifespan, that's all we know for certain, because none of them (barring some liches or super extended longetivity guys, maybe, on par with a Jatembe or Baba Yaga who might still be around) had any pre-Gap memories when it ended.
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That just means it's tens of centuries, still correct! It's longer than an elven lifespan, that's all we know for certain, because none of them (barring some liches or super extended longetivity guys, maybe, on par with a Jatembe or Baba Yaga who might still be around) had any pre-Gap memories when it ended.
Some like XO! had pre gap memories but at least in the recent novel talked about how scrambled and distant they were although memories from that long ago have to be just fuzzy by nature anyway.
Also if the gods know anything it’s not all of them. Some were as affected as badly or worse than any mortal. Cayden Cailean went on a trauma bender for a century over losing the memories of so many mortal friends and companions. When his clergy finally got him to sober up he admitted the Gap was just as much a mystery to him as anyone else.
Wether the truly ancient primordial deities like Desna and Asmodeus were affected the same way or were able to resist is unknown.