Phantasmal Killer and Undead PCs

[SuperParkourio]

Playing Undead wrote:

Immunity to Death Effects: You're immune to death effects. This keeps you from being automatically killed or from having your dying value automatically increase, but it doesn't make you immune to other parts of the spell or effect. For example, you can still take mental damage and become frightened by a phantasmal killer, you just don't instantly die from it.

I recently learned that Phantasmal Killer only targets 1 living creature. Same for Vision of Death. Meaning that even if PK didn't have the death trait, it would still fail to target nonliving creatures. Did the author of this rule not know? Or are "Targets 1 living creature" spells supposed to work against the undead?

[Plane]

There are more ways to become immune to death effects than being undead. Can the spell target an undead? No. Can it target someone protected by a death ward? Yes.

[Mangaholic13]

I mean, considering that both spells involve evoking a fear of death... with an undead has already experienced, can't say it's surprising that they wouldn't be spooked in the slightest.

Although... how does this apply to intelligent constructs and other "not actually living, but not undead" beings?

[Indi523]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

I mean, considering that both spells involve evoking a fear of death... with an undead has already experienced, can't say it's surprising that they wouldn't be spooked in the slightest.

Although... how does this apply to intelligent constructs and other "not actually living, but not undead" beings?

I think that in the past Phantasmal Killer was an illusion spell and it only worked on a creature with a mind.

So I would say depends on the undead. Possibly this could kill a specter or ghost especially if they do not know they are dead because it overloads the mind thus destroying the void energies keeping it sentient.

But maybe not a vampire which would not normally be subject to death from damage i.e. you need a stake through the heart, etc. Perhaps it would force the vampire into its mist like state requiring it to regenerate.

Not sure but that is how I would rule it.

[Tridus]

Mangaholic13 wrote:

Although... how does this apply to intelligent constructs and other "not actually living, but not undead" beings?

"Target: 1 living creature"

Constructs are not living, so they're not a valid target. They're generally all immune to Death effects anyway.

[NorrKnekten]

Phantasmal Killer has always been targeting 1 Living creature, even in early playtest material. But it is possible the text for immunity to death effects was written under different context and then reused for the Playing Undead section.

It is very clearly a variation on the text that explains immunities in that just because you are immune to one effect of the trait doesn't mean you are immune to the effect as a whole. And also explains why Reapers Lantern and similar hasn't seen any change at all despite carrying a trait which all undeads are immune to (the ones who arent listed as immune on AoN either lists it as part of their family or clearly omits it similarly to how undeads used to omit bleed immunity in the past)

Player Core pg. 408 2.0 Immunities, Weakness, and Resistance wrote:

However, some complex effects might have parts that affect you even if you're immune to one of the effect's traits; for instance, a spell that deals both fire and acid damage can still deal acid damage to you even if you're immune to fire.

[SuperParkourio]

So the Book of the Dead author used PK to highlight it as a complex effect for which immunity to death would not completely thwart the spell, but they didn't notice that PK is also incapable of targeting undead in the first place?

[Claxon]

SuperParkourio wrote:

So the Book of the Dead author used PK to highlight it as a complex effect for which immunity to death would not completely thwart the spell, but they didn't notice that PK is also incapable of targeting undead in the first place?

I think your whole question, your entire premise is flawed.

NPC Undead are generally immune to death effects. But being undead isn't the only way to be immune to death effects.

So Phantasmal Killer being able to only target living creatures, and being a death effect doesn't create any problems.

Undead can't be targeted by Phantasmal killer, period.

There are plenty of living creatures to target. Some of those living creatures might still be immune to death effects. They would still take the mental damage, but wouldn't be at risk of instantly dying if reduced to 0 hp from it.

Edit: Sorry, I'm now seeing the contradiction you're raising.

Basic undead benefits for playable undead ancestries does include death effect immunity (something I didn't realize, I had thought this wasn't true for playable undead).

So yes, it seems likely the author missed that all playable undead had death effect immunity or missed that Phantasmal Killer was only able to target living creatures.

If Phantasmal Killer wasn't restricted to living creatures, then Undead PCs would be a valid target. They would suffer the mental damage, but not be at risk of instant death if reduced to 0 hp.

Considering the general immunity to death effects of NPC non-living creatures, perhaps it makes sense to remove the restriction to only targeting living creatures. Phantasmal killer also has the mental trait, meaning mindless creatures also aren't affected. In previous editions I think the target restriction to living creatures was meant to point out/help/prevent constructs, undead, and certain other kinds of enemies from being targeted, because we didn't have the robust trait system we do now which makes it far simpler to handle those kinds of themes.

[NorrKnekten]

SuperParkourio wrote:

So the Book of the Dead author used PK to highlight it as a complex effect for which immunity to death would not completely thwart the spell, but they didn't notice that PK is also incapable of targeting undead in the first place?

While that is possible and certainly part of my guess, I believe the immunity to death effects was written elsewhere underneath a different context unrelated to undead creatures. Where though i am not sure. With the writer simply taking that part and not realizing the discrepency.

The example when given in the context of playing undead obviously does not apply but still give relevant hints as to how immunity to death effects works in general.

[Perses13]

Considering the many issues folks have found with the Undead PC rules in Book of the Dead over the years, this one seems incredibly minor by comparison.

[Easl]

It's a bit belt-and-suspenders, but as Plane says, written the way it is the author is telling the GM what to do if the caster targets a living critter that is immune to death effects.

[Baarogue]

Guys, I think what SP is trying to call attention to is that this is written in the Basic Undead Benefits, not just some general guidance about death effects. This is specifically about undead PCs, who aren't valid targets for phantasmal killer

SP, I believe the author was unaware of PK's targeting requirements/it slipped their mind, or they were working with the assumption undead PCs would be targetable as living creatures. I'm going to just chalk this up to yet more unfortunate editing and take away the morale; which appears to be that just because a spell has a trait or effect you're immune to, that doesn't mean you're immune to ALL of its effects

I will also toss it in the pile of spells and other effects that should probably lose its "living creature" targeting requirements

[Claxon]

Baarogue wrote:

I will also toss it in the pile of spells and other effects that should probably lose its "living creature" targeting requirements

100% this. With The mental trait and death effect immunity for most undead (being undead in and of itself doesn't grant immunity to death effects, but every undead seems to call it out) and constructs (same as undead) it means that it probably makes sense to remove the living target restriction.

There's no good reason that a vampire should be immune to the mental damage of phantasmal killer. Remembering their own death that resulted in their undead state probably should be traumatic. Then everything works fine.

[Tridus]

Claxon wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

I will also toss it in the pile of spells and other effects that should probably lose its "living creature" targeting requirements

100% this. With The mental trait and death effect immunity for most undead (being undead in and of itself doesn't grant immunity to death effects, but every undead seems to call it out) and constructs (same as undead) it means that it probably makes sense to remove the living target restriction.

There's no good reason that a vampire should be immune to the mental damage of phantasmal killer. Remembering their own death that resulted in their undead state probably should be traumatic. Then everything works fine.

Chalk it up as yet another example of targeting restrictions on living/undeath causing problems that wouldn't exist without the targeting restrictions.

[SuperParkourio]

Add laughing fit to the list, too.

[Mangaholic13]

So... This is coming from the Starfinder Player Core, but an interesting thing of note is that the versatile heritage Borai (basically, you are somehow a living undead, meaning no void healing and can be resurrected):

Borai heritage gives the PC the Undead trait.
However, one of their lineage feats Necrotized has the following language:

Starfinder Player Core pg 86 wrote:

NECROTIZED

BORAI LINEAGE
FEAT 1
You became a borai intentionally through necromantic
experimentation conducted by yourself or someone else
before you died. This experimentation has strengthened
your defenses against death but has also made you look
more like a corpse than a living being. You gain the Diehard
feat, and death effects no longer kill you if they reduce you
to 0 Hit Points. This keeps you from being automatically
killed or from having your dying value automatically
decrease, but it doesn’t make you immune to other parts
of the spell or effect. For example, you can still take mental
damage and become frightened by a vision of death spell,
you just don’t instantly die from it.

So, it sounds like the Undead trait doesn't have a built-in immunity to death effects (and since Borai are living creatures, they CAN be hit by Vision of Death).

[NorrKnekten]

Interesting how the Borai feat doesn't call it an immunity to death effects, I know people are going to point to that in the future when making arguments as to how immunity work.

But it's not like thats unprecedented either. We have a few cases of where paizo removed the death trait from an ability or creature to show that a creature immune to death effects still are affected by the rest of the.

[SuperParkourio]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Interesting how the Borai feat doesn't call it an immunity to death effects.

I think it's substantially different from immunity to death effects. Necrotized stops death effects from killing you by reducing you to zero Hit Points, but not by other means. For instance, a crit fail against massacre would still kill you without having to reduce your Hit Points first.

[SuperParkourio]

What does it mean by "keeping your dying value from automatically decreasing," though? I've never heard of a death effect reducing someone's dying condition. Maybe they meant increasing, like death knell?

[NorrKnekten]

Honestly that sounds like a miss in spelling. Death effects shouldn't be pulling you further away from death after all. Probably meant to say 'Increasing'

Because sometimes a Death Effect won't outright kill or deal damage. But may instead increase your dying value, Like Death Knell if the target succeeds the save.