Assuming base rules (no variants such as free archetype), what build combos might work well with taking Kineiticist Dedication and Improved Elemental Blast x3 (and possibly other kineticist feats too)?
It doesn't have to be optimized, but should still carry it's own weight well within a party of adventurers.
That leaves matters too open what with all the classes and all the roles possible, as well as the different directions one can go with the other Kineticist feats. There are classes it wouldn't work well with like Fighter where it'd only be a backup ranged attack for a low-Dex build (and still might be inferior) or Rogue where you'd lose Sneak Attack or Thaumaturge who loses their main Strike shtick.
I'm not sure such a basic blast combos at all, though many of the feats would (esp. mobility or Reactions). As a third-action, the blast is solid for casters or others that don't use MAP and often have a free hand (which most martials don't), so maybe a Witch who can give a Weakness. For an Investigator it can be a good non-Strike attack if you get a low roll on Devise a Stratagem. For an Animal Barbarian (w/ Moment of Clarity) you can get around the no weapons problem if there's little to do in melee and you've already begun Raging. Even though Elemental Instinct gets around that issue they can already throw, fly, or use a bow w/ similar effect.
But I wouldn't call any of those combos, not like what's otherwise possible with MCD Kineticist. Improved Elemental Blast is simply too expensive with what you're giving up, including other Kineticist feats.
ETA: I think a good point of comparison would be a Cantrip. Though 2-actions, for far less investment you can do similar damage if your PC did need a ranged or energy backup. So other than as a 3rd action, I don't think there's much here, and there are plenty of good or even necessary 3rd actions that water down the value even more.
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Four feats to get 4d6 to 4d8 elemental blast? Why would you ever do that?
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Assuming base rules (no variants such as free archetype), what build combos might work well with taking Kineiticist Dedication and Improved Elemental Blast x3 (and possibly other kineticist feats too)?
It doesn't have to be optimized, but should still carry it's own weight well within a party of adventurers.
What does "carry its own weight well" mean? If your accuracy is at -4 compared to a martial, it means a normal fight is like trying to hit a deadly boss, so I think that's a reasonable cutoff to say you're no longer effective. We'll call a -3 enough if the damage is similar (less than a die of difference), and we'll call -2 good enough at any damage amount.
Level 1: N/A.
Level 2: You're using a secondary stat, and it's Con. That means you're somewhere around -1 to -2 for stats if you aren't taking a bunch of AC/armor penalties just to make this work, and at an additional -1 because you don't have your item yet. It's a d8 or d6 damage die, which is comparable to a bow, so no problems even if it's -3.
Level 3: We get our +1 item bonus, catching up.
Level 4: Weapons get +1 damage die. We are at most -2 behind, so that's still okay. (If we're going to be using our elemental blast, we probably want to drop a feat on Weapon Infusion to get us 100 ft. range so that we can fire on enemies who will be spending more than a turn closing the distance.)
Level 5-7: Our stat catches up! We're either at -0 or -1 from that. Unfortunately, proficiency jumps for martials here, and we don't keep up. That puts us at -2 or -3, with less damage. That means we need this to be on a Dex or Str class, or we're compromising our AC to start with enough Con.
Level 8-9: We can spend a feat here to boost our damage, helping us catch up a little.
Level 10: We can advance our Con again, but martials get their main stat's +5 here, while we're definitely at a +4. Weapon runes hit +2 accuracy. With the +2 proficiency bonus, the blast is certifiably useless for this level, no matter what we do.
Level 11: We get our +2 item accuracy at this point, putting us at -3 behind, with (mostly) comparable damage.
Level 12: Weapons increase by a damage die. But, we can take Expert Kinetic Control to bump accuracy to expert. That puts us at -1 accuracy with less damage!
Level 13: Martials get master proficiency. We're back at -3 accuracy with less damage. Weapon Specialization jumped from 2 to 3 damage, and that's getting a little harder to ignore.
Level 14: We spend another feat, and catch up on damage dice. We're at -3 with most of the damage.
Level 15: If we were able to start with +3 Con, we now get it up to +5. Our accuracy is at -2, which is good, because greater weapon specialization is now giving martials +6 damage that we don't have.
Level 16-17: Weapons get +1 accuracy that Kinetic Blasts never get. We're now -3 behind martials, and greater weapon specialization means we are behind on damage.
Level 18: We get +1 damage die, briefly mostly making up for greater weapon spec.
Level 19-20: Weapons get their fourth damage die, and that's it.
So, in summary, with an optimal class pick, you're still spending one level unable to use the gimmick, six levels where you shouldn't be using the blast even if you have it, and thirteen levels where you can consider it a backup ranged weapon using feats instead of money.
Viable classes for this approach are Dex or Str martials that aren't already going ranged. Elemental Barbarian, Champion, Exemplar, Monk, Rogue, Ranger (technically), and Swashbuckler. Casters and the off-stat martials are going to spend even more levels where they shouldn't bother using it, while Gunslinger is just too good with ranged weapons. Fighter is a special case- they start as expert in all martial weapons, so they have extra levels where they are taking too much of a penalty not just using a bow to justify it, even if they go for a pure melee build.
Of those, it's just a matter of who can afford to give up half of their feats.
You'd be exchanging feats for gold. Alongside it being an expensive way to get a one-action Cantrip, that's it in a nutshell. You still/only need a hand free so another point of comparison would be a Returning javelin (which applies to the casters 3rd actions, most which invest in Dex too).
I would crave that must-have item that provided me with those feat slots for the cost of upgrading a weapon so I can't see doing the inverse. (Which is a shame for MCD Kineticists, but at least there's no backdoor to building a better version via a different class.)
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Kineticist MCD is isn't really great for taking elemental blast. I think it is much stronger to dip in and grab some good impulses. They advance at same rate as a regular Kineticist.
I put together an awakened Squirrel Summoner with a Tree Eidolon with FA Kineticist. Blast isn't great damage, but Fresh Produce and Timber Sentinel are great and you have them both online by level 6. That means I can use my limited spell slots for attack or buff spells instead of healing and defense.
Four feats to get 4d6 to 4d8 elemental blast? Why would you ever do that?
This is why I'm curious if it's possible to make a decent build with it incorporated.
If it's wholly impossible, then maybe it should be errata'd.
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Four feats to get 4d6 to 4d8 elemental blast? Why would you ever do that?This is why I'm curious if it's possible to make a decent build with it incorporated.
If it's wholly impossible, then maybe it should be errata'd.
Elemental blasts aren't even very good for the kineticist. Not sure why they would make them better for the archetype.
I so rarely use Elemental Blasts on my kineticists past the low levels that I barely remember they exist.
Elemental Blasts should be better than they are as they scale terribly.
To answer the question directly: impulses by design synergize very little with mechanics external to the Kineticist, and for a far lesser feat investment you could just take a cantrip and deal more damage. I guess it does have the advantage of being able to trigger a weakness to energy damage as a single action, but at that point you're still better off Striking with a weapon that has a damage property rune, even as a caster, as your attack will be more accurate and likely to be more damaging still. There are thus very few builds I can think of that would make exceptional use of Improved Elemental Blast x3 relative to, say, a cantrip or a weapon.
I'll also echo what many others have said and state that even if Elemental Blast were allowed to fully progress on its own, it would still be just an okay impulse on a MC Kineticist. Even as early as 1st level, each element has impulses that deal comparable or better damage and often do something else on the side, so while EB does have the benefit of fitting in as a single action, it would still be at best equal with those, and I think it even falls off at higher levels. In this respect, I think the Kineticist archetype is balanced slightly too conservatively, and you could just let Elemental Blast auto-scale without it disrupting balance.
Mildly disagree. Meaning you're right that EB is probably too conservative but the ability to use a single archetype feat to pick up an evergreen attack impulse or something like protector tree is quite strong IMO. So considering the archetype as a whole, I don't think that it needs more power.
This is fair, though keeping EB nerfed the way it is achieves strictly nothing in this regard: even at full scaling, EB still struggles to keep up with cantrip damage, so having an un-nerfed EB would change very little except make it feel slightly less bad to anyone taking the dedication, and it certainly wouldn't make those strong impulses any less strong. I also think the abuse potential really comes specifically from utility impulses like Timber Sentinel, rather than impulses that rely on your MC Kin class DC that caps out at expert: compared to an actual Kineticist, your save DC for those effects ends up being at a whopping relative -6, and if you don't pick up gate attenuators your impulse attack modifier will also end up at a -7 compared to a regular martial's. In this respect, you could probably even have your MC kin class DC scale up to master at level 18 and still be okay.
What does become a problem, however, is the level scaling: because impulses automatically scale up to be about as strong as a max rank - 1 spell, MC Kineticists end up with a power scaling on those impulses that can exceed the kind of power you'd get in far more limited amounts from a spellcasting archetype. While the low class DC limits the effectiveness of offensive impulses, utility impulses aren't limited in that respect at all, so you can end up with some incredibly strong effects on-tap. If we were to base the scaling off of spell ranks from a MC spellcaster, then impulses on a MC Kin likely ought to cap at the power of a 7th-rank spell.
So, with that in mind, if I were to change the Kineticist archetype, I'd likely go about it in the following way:
So with all of this, EB would still auto-scale to just four damage dice, but then every impulse would also scale a lot slower, such that picking Timber Sentinel or Deflecting Wave wouldn't give you the exact same benefits as a main-classed Kineticist. You wouldn't need to invest feats to make a weak impulse slightly less weak, but you'd need to invest feats to make your impulses scale a little better, much like how you'd take spellcasting benefit feats to make a caster archetype scale.
That's kinda true of all archetypes though; lower DC means they are comparatively good for defense and buffing. So that's what players often do; use archetype and ancestry spells for no-fail buffs and party-target effects, shifting them out of their class set to focus the class abilities more on things that require contested rolls.
Maybe you see that as a problem, or simply a fact of the game system. But either way, it's not an issue specific to the kin archetype.
Hold on, let's not move the goalposts here:
Mildly disagree. Meaning you're right that EB is probably too conservative but the ability to use a single archetype feat to pick up an evergreen attack impulse or something like protector tree is quite strong IMO. So considering the archetype as a whole, I don't think that it needs more power.
This is your immediate preceding post, emphasis added, so you were today years old when you were insisting that the Kin MC archetype was OP because of its attack impulses, something you're denying now. What changed since?
But also, to address your response on its own merits: while it is true that utility tends to be more valuable on archetypes (and I don't consider this a problem), spellcaster archetypes don't have every single spell you select auto-heighten to max rank. By constrast, Kineticist impulses auto-scale to maximum effectiveness even on the MC archetype, which causes effects like Timber Sentinel to become extremely effective even on non-Kineticists, which need I remind you is something you yourself decided was a problem. I'm not quite certain then why you would try to frame me as this lone complainer when it is you, and specifically you, who raised this issue.
This is true. I would not do your suggestion of kin level = half class level. Too restrictive for my taste. I'd give full EB progression in the dedication feat like you, but then I'd replace those EB feats with 'advanced impulse (4)', 'expert impulse (12)' and 'master impulse (18)' where the effect of the feats is to let your impulses keep advancing. So maybe without any of those feats, your maximum level for impulse effects = your level or 4, whichever is lower. With Advanced, it's your level or 10. With Expert, it's level or 16, then with master, it's level or 20. I'm sure some folks would complain about the feat tax, but as you discuss, it seems to make more sense to gate impulse effectiveness than to gate EB damage.
Never mind the feat tax, why are we trying to make the Kineticist work like a spellcaster here? Impulses aren't spell slots, and while I definitely think they shouldn't scale as well on a MC archetype as on a main class Kineticist, I also do think they can be allowed to scale continually without being hard-capped at certain levels. Also, why would you want impulses to scale as well on a MC Kin as on a main-class Kin?
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EB regular scaling is pretty decent in my opinion. 1dX at 1, same as everyone else. Striking rune is level 4, Kin gets 2dX at level 5. Property runes are level 8, Kin gets 3dX at level 9. Greater Striking 12, Kin 4dX 13. Consistently one level behind.
But the Kineticist doesn't have to invest any money in their blast, and it can be both ranged or melee while going off the same stat, CON. You can also add both STR and CON to a melee blast.
Throw in 1 level 1 feat and your blast can now have a range of 100 feet, have propulsive, versatile S/V/B, thrown, agile or reach. The martial has to buy separate sets of runes for multiple weapons that they have to spend actions switching out, while the Kin can do all those things in the same round.
Level 5, a cantrip does 4d4, average of 10. EB does 2d6/8+4, average of 11 or 13. If you use weapon infusion, it can do 2dX+4+(3 or 4) at 20 foot range, average of 14 or 17. Level 11, cantrip is at 7d4, average of 17.5. EB does up to 3d8+9, average of 22.5.
I agree that one level 2 feat should not be as good as a primary class feature.
Not really appreciating the aggresiveness.
Forgive me if the tone came off as brusque, but I do genuinely find it offensive when people deliberately state falsehoods and then accuse others of making them. I would very much prefer it if you did not do this again in the future, and that your response would be to acknowledge the wrongdoing rather than immediately resort to tone policing.
I have never said the archetype is OP.
So what's this, then?
Mildly disagree. Meaning you're right that EB is probably too conservative but the ability to use a single archetype feat to pick up an evergreen attack impulse or something like protector tree is quite strong IMO. So considering the archetype as a whole, I don't think that it needs more power.
Perhaps OP is an exaggeration, but you certainly insisted that the archetype is indeed powerful enough that even allowing EB to approach cantrip levels of scaling would somehow be too much. I'm not really seeing the consistency here, especially when you're seemingly also fine with every other impulse scaling to full level.
I'm fine with archetype impulses scaling the same way as class impulses because I personally think them topping out at [Caster at same level highest rank -1] is sufficient to control the use of the archetype and keep it from being OP. That's my opinion. You seem to disagree. No problemo.
That's fair. My main point of reference is spell slots, which on archetypes cap at 8th-rank as opposed to the 10th-rank spells main-classed spellcasters get, so to me it stands to reason that impulses that cap out at essentially 9th-rank spells should probably not be quite that strong on a MC archetype. The case in point here is stuff like Timber Sentinel, an extremely powerful defensive impulse that anyone can get to maximum effect with a Kin archetype.
I did not deliberately state any falsehood. Point out where you think I did, and if I did, I'll apologize. And for the future, I suggest we not assume malice where miscommunication will explain something. Actually, if none of us ever assume malice period the boards will be a nicer place.
Please refer to the conversation already had:
Hold on, let's not move the goalposts here:
Mildly disagree. Meaning you're right that EB is probably too conservative but the ability to use a single archetype feat to pick up an evergreen attack impulse or something like protector tree is quite strong IMO. So considering the archetype as a whole, I don't think that it needs more power.This is your immediate preceding post, emphasis added, so you were today years old when you were insisting that the Kin MC archetype was OP because of its attack impulses, something you're denying now. What changed since?
Contrast this with the response you'd produced immediately afterward:
That's kinda true of all archetypes though; lower DC means they are comparatively good for defense and buffing. So that's what players often do; use archetype and ancestry spells for no-fail buffs and party-target effects, shifting them out of their class set to focus the class abilities more on things that require contested rolls.
Maybe you see that as a problem, or simply a fact of the game system. But either way, it's not an issue specific to the kin archetype.
You went from "Kineticist archetype is really strong due to impulse attacks and Timber Sentinel" to "actually impulse attacks aren't that great" and then tried to frame me as if I had been the one to bring up the issue you raised. Unless you somehow completely forgot what you had said only a couple of hours before and also done a complete U-turn on your opinions, this is you stating a deliberate falsehood. Moreover, trying to rewrite the narrative in order to make me responsible for your own contradictory opinions is gaslighting, an extremely harmful manipulation tactic. I do not make these accusations lightly or without proof, much less assume malice. I have furnished evidence in support of what I've been saying, and to pretend that this evidence was not produced is itself disingenuous. Please stop engaging in conversation like this, it is unpleasant and not the first time I have seen you behave in this way either.
Yes exactly. It is an exaggeration of what I said. 'Strong, I don't think needs more power' implies I don't think the archetype needs to be changed by Paizo.
And yet here you are, advocating for changes -- just your changes, without any effort paid to acknowledge the merits of what others may have suggested. You say that the forums would be a better place if people didn't assume malice, I say the forums would be a better place if people actually started listening to one another, and didn't spend so much effort putting others down just so that they can get up on their own soapbox. As already pointed out, your rationale here is inconsistent -- you think the archetype is strong enough that it can't afford to have more power via an auto-scaling Elemental Blast (which, it bears repeating, barely matches up to cantrip damage), yet when it comes to making your own suggestions, there's seemingly plenty of power to spare in order to raise the archetype's DC up to master while preserving the full level scaling of impulses. This reads to me less like a consistent driving principle for broaching the topic of the Kineticist archetype, and more like a series of expedient double standards to shoot down other people's homebrew while promoting one's own.
Got it. That suggests maybe even at third way to revamp the archetype. I.e. full EB as we've discussed, then max out impulses at L18 which is functionally equivalent to about 8th rank spells.
Timber Sentinel is a bit of an oddity because it functions at full spell rank, not rank-1. Not sure why they did that, but I probably wouldn't revamp the the entire archetype rules just to fix that one case. 'Hard cases make bad law', as the saying goes.
My suspicion is that making it auto-heighten to half level rounded up was just the simplest implementation, and the assumption was that the baseline spell wasn't so strong that this would cause issue. As it stands, protector tree is an excellent spell that also heightens really well, so the simplest solution here if it remains an outlier could simply be to nerf the impulse directly instead of working around it.
I think the Kineticist archetype is strong enough not to need any change. And I think it is a pretty common occurrence to use archetype abilities for defense and utility because the DC you get from an archetype tends to be lower than your class DC. The two statements together neither create a falsehood, nor are they inconsistent.
That is not the inconsistency I pointed out, and my response makes this clear. There is a direct contradiction between you stating the Kineticist archetype is strong due to attack impulses, and you stating that it is in fact specifically the utility that makes the archetype strong. Similarly, there is a direct contradiction between you stating the Kineticist archetype is strong enough to not need any change (and you using this argument to shut down the changes I proposed), and you proposing heavy changes to the Kineticist archetype, including a buff to its scaling (one I in fact contested, given that you also insisted on keeping the Kineticist's full impulse level scaling). Claiming otherwise is, once again, deliberately stating a falsehood, as there is plenty of evidence to furnish what I'm pointing out here.
Trying to bring this back to Ravingdork's OP, here's my summary advice for you, Ravingdork, on how to make archetype EB work as written: select an element that gives you a damage type you don't normally access, through runes (martials) or spell selection (casters), so it is valuable when your primary class attacks meet resistance/immunity. If you are intent on using EB, versatile blasts (for extra elements) and weapon infusion (for range and various other buffs) would be an obvious way to improve it. Though I generally agree with other posters on this fora that you are 'swimming upstream' here.
My addition here would be that it may be more valuable to take the extra element than improvements to Elemental Blast. At a grand total of 4d8 (give or take up to 12) damage at 18th level, the action is not really going to be dealing much damage even if it does trigger a weakness; the advantage will come specifically from being able to trigger weaknesses and inflict further penalties on specific monsters, such as disabling a troll's regeneration with fire damage.
Weak elemental blasts and maximum what? Master class DC?
Weak elemental blasts and maximum what? Master class DC?
Expert.
Weak elemental blasts and maximum what? Master class DC?Expert.
Why did they even make this archetype? That's terrible.
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Why did they even make this archetype? That's terrible.Weak elemental blasts and maximum what? Master class DC?Expert.
The archetype is amazing with other impulses, but the blast is a really hard sell.
Which is why I started this thread in the first place. I want to see if anyone can take the ol'junker and patch it up well enough to at least place in the race.
Yeah. The question is more about why they lose that book spaces instead of put something more interesting?
The archetype is very good to take the utility, supportive, and defensive impulses once that they improve with your level instead of improve based in feats like casters' archetype. However, the DC is terrible, so doesn't work to use with direct attacks.
The main sensation is that they could simply ignore the elemental blasts and the DC feats and put something more useful, like some junctions.
The entire archetype only worth around Through the Gate, Advanced Element Control and Add Element feats and of-course dedication as tax feat.
I don't think they're losing anything with the space. You could only put another Kineticist archetype feat there, and they already cover impulses, base kinesis, and adding an element. The junctions are more reasonable as class-exclusive than poachable options. That covers everything.
Can someone explain to me how a caster who doesn’t want to invest the heavy wealth investment in a weapon and weapon runes, or anything into STR isn’t better off with elemental blast as a third action, resourceless attack option? It is a lot of feats, and I doubt I’d see it outside of a free archetype game, but a caster who wanted to spend a whole lot more gold on other things but still have an attack option isn’t really going to be hurting with elemental blast.
Can someone explain to me how a caster who doesn’t want to invest the heavy wealth investment in a weapon and weapon runes, or anything into STR isn’t better off with elemental blast as a third action, resourceless attack option?
The Ostilli Host says hi. For the low, low price of one 2nd-level dedication feat, you get an auto-scaling, single-action bit of damage that also involves a basic save using your class DC (oh, and it scales better too). It is the far better option for anyone looking for damage on their third action, including martial classes given how Spit Ambient Magic isn't an attack.
Can someone explain to me how a caster who doesn’t want to invest the heavy wealth investment in a weapon and weapon runes, or anything into STR isn’t better off with elemental blast as a third action, resourceless attack option? It is a lot of feats, and I doubt I’d see it outside of a free archetype game, but a caster who wanted to spend a whole lot more gold on other things but still have an attack option isn’t really going to be hurting with elemental blast.
That's the only reason I can think of for taking it. You want the cosmetics of it. It's vastly inferior even for what you just stated. Four feats to gain a 4d8 single attack with a maximum +2 item bonus using Con with no property runes or specialization.
Some people like to play vastly suboptimal options for cosmetic reasons. That's the only reason I see for the cost versus effectiveness ratio.
I think the only part of it that really gets bad is that you have to take improved elemental blast 3 times and expert kinetic control. Like if you just just needed to take improved elemental blast one time and it scaled after that, I think it would be pretty well dialed in. Especially since 14th level and 18th level feats represent options that are a lot more powerful, and the 3rd and 4th damage dice end up representing less and less of the amount of extra damage the ability does.
Fully runed weapons are really expensive. Most casters I see using weapons don't keep fully up with runes and usually the last in the party to upgrade weapons so the numbers are not that far off, especially as boosting CON is a very good idea and a D8 weapon with a range of 30ft isn't easy to get for a caster.
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Why does the weapon need to be fully runed? A weapon could be a little behind in runes, yet still more effective than EB, not to mention cheap. If you're a caster, runic weapon is also a spell available across literally every tradition; that's what it's there for.
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Unfortunately, the EB has to be balanced around too many different spots to allow for easy scaling.
Your class DC is used to determine to hit with EB and DC for impulses. Your impulses scale the same as a full Kin, so it has to be weaker somehow.
EB can add Str to damage, so it has to have a lower dice damage. Ostilli Host at level 10 gets 3d6 damage on your class/spell DC. EB with just the dedication feat can get 1d8+5 by level 10 for a 1 action melee attack. Average damage of 10.5 and 9.5 respectively. Max save for Ostilli at 10 is 29. Max to hit with EB at level 10 is +17, but it is easier to reduce AC than saves.
Compare an innate cantrip at level 10 dealing 6d4 damage for 2 actions, with save DC between 22 (no Cha no spellcasting) and 29 (full caster +5 Cha).
A wizard with a weapon is swinging at +18, this assumes a +2 potency rune and +4 strength. More likely they are at +15, but dealing 2d6+3 damage (ave 9). Same average damage as EB and Ostilli above.
Not only but also that starting at level 13 arcane/primal casters can cast Fiery Body and casts ignition as one action what means that you do 8d4 (20 avg) damage as your 3rd-action. If you have Shadow Signet you also can choose to attack Fortitude or Reflex if you know the enemy weakest defense.
So I also think that EB or other complex solutions more than a Weapon Familiarity don't compensate in the end.
Not only but also that starting at level 13 arcane/primal casters can cast Fiery Body and casts ignition as one action what means that you do 8d4 (20 avg) damage as your 3rd-action. If you have Shadow Signet you also can choose to attack Fortitude or Reflex if you know the enemy weakest defense.
So I also think that EB or other complex solutions more than a Weapon Familiarity don't compensate in the end.
I don't think it makes sense at all to compare EB to a 7th-rank spell, a cantrip, and a 10th-level magic item all used in combination with each other. I definitely don't think EB is worth improving on the multiclass archetype, but even a fully-scaling EB on the main class is still going to look bad next to that standard, because it's an unrealistically high standard to set for such a basic standalone action.
The point of comparison is the people considering the usage of Elemental Blasts as an attack action for 3rd-action of casters and if it is worth the “general cost”.
Since of the beginning of this thread, people were considering to use Kineticist Dedication + 3 Improved Elemental Blast feats to get up to 4d6 elemental blast attacks with expert proficiency and probably a Gate Attenuator to get some item bonus.
But the cost benefit just o use a (long) air repeater or a bow if your character have martial proficiency or some weapon familiarity that gives access to bows even having to invest into runes (something that you don't really need to focus for just a 3rd action attack you can simply attach the runes that you find along the way to save some money) improving its damage dices to 2 at level 4 or higher, to 3 dices at level 8 (considering the damage property runes), to 4 dices at level 10 (considering the second property rune), to 5 dices at level 12 (due the Striking (Greater) rune) at this point these weapons attack damage are already better than any Elemental Blast archetype can get without costing 4 class feats, instead costs money that IMO it means that's a better “general cost” than use class feat slots.
My point about Fiery Body or Ferrous Form is that about starting at level 13 (15 for Ferrous Form) a primal/arcane spellcaster not even needs to invest in weapons anymore in order to make 3rd action attacks because you can simply cast this spell and be able to cast an attack cantrip with just one-action that does way more damage than a weapon attack or an archetype Elemental Blast, the damage auto-heightens without need any additional investment nor casting it as higher spellslot, uses your key attribute and spellcasting proficiency, doesn't require having to keep using an action every round to keep its duration (what's pretty good because sometimes you need to use an action to move or something like and sustained spells usually means that you need to stop to cast any other 2-action spell just to prevent the sustained spell to end) and can easily use 3-4 times per day what's usually means that you can use it in all your encounters of that day without fear and still can be improved by Shadow Signet in order to try to hit enemies easier.
The point is. For a primal/arcane caster, that will get 7th rank starting at level 13 a spell that gives a 3rd-action attack stronger than your weapon attacks and way stronger than any archetype Elemental Blasts that can used freely along the entire encounter IMO puts an end point in the cost-effectiveness for the class to the usage of any Elemental Blast like solution or weapon like solution to complete your DPR with a 3rd-action attack option.
Also, IMO this tear down any point about the viability to use archetype Elemental Blasts even the money cost argument that could be used against the weapons alternatives.
My point about Fiery Body or Ferrous Form is that about starting at level 13 (15 for Ferrous Form) a primal/arcane spellcaster not even needs to invest in weapons anymore in order to make 3rd action attacks because you can simply cast this spell and be able to cast an attack cantrip with just one-action that does way more damage than a weapon attack or an archetype Elemental Blast, the damage auto-heightens without need any additional investment nor casting it as higher spellslot, uses your key attribute and spellcasting proficiency, doesn't require having to keep using an action every round to keep its duration (what's pretty good because sometimes you need to use an action to move or something like and sustained spells usually means that you need to stop to cast any other 2-action spell just to prevent the sustained spell to end) and can easily use 3-4 times per day what's usually means that you can use it in all your encounters of that day without fear and still can be improved by Shadow Signet in order to try to hit enemies easier.
While I can certainly agree that there are better alternatives to EB, casting a spell with a 1-minute duration tends to cost actions in combat as well as a spell slot, which complicates the comparison. This is before factoring in the (much smaller) opportunity cost of including a cantrip, which also takes up more actions than a 1-action EB, and the cost of using a magic item. Looking at all this, if I were looking for a 1-action attack as an alternative to EB, this wouldn't give me what I'm looking for.
If we're going to use spells as points of comparison, blazing bolt I'd say would be a much directly better alternative as a single-action attack, and if we're looking for at-will single-action attacks, just a cheap ranged weapon for your level would outperform EB as well on both accuracy and raw damage, even just with simple weapons and expert Strikes (the air repeater is particularly good for this). Even if this alone would cost more than a Shadow Signet, it would still be cheap enough for any caster to afford and would be much easier to use without any setup.
The real problem with fiery body as a spell is that you either have to cast it before a battle starts or you lose doing something much more effective, like casting chain lightning in the first round, so unless being made of fire itself is going to be a huge advantage for the combat the extra third action damage is pretty irrelevant to the net damage you lose out on. And the duration of the spell makes pre buffing with it very difficult to time.
Elemental blast is some that doesn’t really have to be an action eater at all to set up, because you can open your gate without consequence as you are headed into a dungeon.
Any kind of 1+ handed weapon rules out having a staff in hand which can be a pretty big deal for a lot of casters. I think the d4/ d6 range is the much more likely damage comparison number for a caster with a ranged 3rd action weapon attack.
I still think the only real issue is that the 2nd and 3rd improved blast are too expensive for how little they do individually. At least one of them should just be tied to the feat that boosts your class DC.
Any kind of 1+ handed weapon rules out having a staff in hand which can be a pretty big deal for a lot of casters.
You can wield a staff in one hand and an air repeater in the other just fine, though, so unless your GM disallows firearms, any caster would be able to use that ranged weapon as an option.
Any kind of 1+ handed weapon rules out having a staff in hand which can be a pretty big deal for a lot of casters.You can wield a staff in one hand and an air repeater in the other just fine, though, so unless your GM disallows firearms, any caster would be able to use that ranged weapon as an option.
I agree that something like the air repeater is the comparable weapon, so a D4 damage die with 30ft of range, vs a d8 at the same range and a d6 for twice the range.
I still think the last 2 improved blast feats are too expensive for it to be a good option or even maybe an average option (at really high levels) but it is not so bad as to be without any use at all, which I think was the question of the original post. In a level 1-10 campaign with free archetype, getting the blast up front is probably good enough to just be able to eschew weapons all together.