
RPG-Geek |
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With how many interactions there are in a game this big, ambiguity and edge cases are going to happen. As has been shown, even M:tG has it and has to have rulings in the giant PDF for those cases, despite the effort they put in to avoid it and how the game is more limited in scope of what interactions are actually allowed (there is no exploration mode in it, for example).
MtG has vastly more interactions than PF2 and, unlike PF2, is Turing-complete, so you could technically have a deck of MtG cards simulate a game of MtG Arena. That is as close as we can reasonably get to infinite complexity within a game without some metatextual game where the point of the game is to continually add rules to the game. As PF2 isn't this sort of game, and MtG shows that you can make rules to cover a Turing-complete game, there isn't an issue here.
To avoid rules bloat, a TTRPG going with an MtG style system would naturally seek to avoid the edge cases that create said bloat. This isn't hard, as PF2 rarely has chains of actions longer than two or three, and doesn't have things like Morph, which are special actions that don't use the stack. It also lacks any zone that isn't the battlefield, doesn't need rules for upkeep, hand size, shuffling your deck, drawing cards, exiled objects, etc. Removing these things and knowing that you're designing for a TTRPG and not a TCG means you can cut a lot and thus reduce the interactions that would inflate a 20 to 100-page rules document into a 300-page tome.
Things like exploration can have the actions themselves codified, and then the rules can say something like, "Any strictly narrative action that doesn't involve a dice roll, another action as defined by the game's rules, or a bonus or penalty to a future action, is freeform and not subject to the rules in this document." You don't need rules to cover things that already don't interact with the rules.
This isn't some impossible challenge. It doesn't remove your ability to RP. It doesn't remove the need for a GM. There's a lot of fearmongering that seems very defensive and conservative. Many objections here seem to be along the lines of, "I like the game as it is and fear any change may harm my enjoyment of the system". This forum loves to tell people we can always just play PF1 of 3.x or some other system, but doesn't seem ready to accept that they may dislike PF3 and be forced to keep playing PF2 long after it's no longer supported by Paizo and has an ageing and dwindling player base.

Perpdepog |
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There used to be a joke that ran around for a bit.
If the text is wordy and technical, it was written by Mark.
If the text assumed application of common sense, it was Logan.
if someone died then it was Jason who wrote it.
But Jason is such a kind and benevolent GM! He says so all the time; I mean, a PC almost dies after he says it, but I'm positive those are just unfortunate coincidences.

RPG-Geek |
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M:tG has to have rulings in the giant PDF for those cases
Coming back to this, they also have the Gatherer with specific rulings for each card, so you can often just look at those for the cards in question and see if anything might resolve differently than normal based on that.
Magic has tighter rules, better FAQ style rulings, and better developer transparency than PF2/Paizo.

Guntermench |
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Like the stunned description and "you can't act". Is the inability to act descriptive? What does it mean if anything? Nothing else within the ability indicates an inability to take reactions, but some people seem dead set on saying you can't take reactions. And confusingly it seemed like at least one person said the "you can't act" was descriptive text and should be ignored, but also claimed you couldn't take reactions (which isn't otherwise supported in the text).
The only problem is "You can't act" gets it's rules elsewhere.
It's in the Step 2: Act rules of Turns:
If you can't act, you can't use any actions, including reactions and free actions.
It's right there. You can use no actions, reactions or free actions. You also can't speak, and that's in yet another spot, the Basic Actions rules:
As long as you can act, you can also speak.
Effectively, you are as screwed as if you're Petrified, Unconscious or Dead while Stunned, and more screwed than Paralyzed which has a slightly weaker version of being unable to act. The action cost is the duration of the effect and a secondary effect, not the whole of effect itself. For as long as you have the condition you cannot do anything.

Guntermench |
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That clears up a lot Guntermench. Thank you for posting those sections.
And I can see now there is no such parallel for the phrase You’ve become senseless.
The thing is...this has always been the wording. This has been the case since release, it didn't change with the remaster.
People just ignore it.

Bluemagetim |
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Bluemagetim wrote:That clears up a lot Guntermench. Thank you for posting those sections.
And I can see now there is no such parallel for the phrase You’ve become senseless.The thing is...this has always been the wording. This has been the case since release, it didn't change with the remaster.
People just ignore it.
Well thank you. I'm caught up at least.

graystone |
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Bluemagetim wrote:That clears up a lot Guntermench. Thank you for posting those sections.
And I can see now there is no such parallel for the phrase You’ve become senseless.The thing is...this has always been the wording. This has been the case since release, it didn't change with the remaster.
People just ignore it.
I don't think it's as much ignore it as never connecting the dots between multiple places in the rules: it's not like people are ignoring part of a singular whole and completely written out in one place rule. If you do a search for 'can't act' on Nethys, the sections you mention don't show up in the first hundred entries.

Guntermench |
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Alright I will clarify: they've wilfully ignored it in every discussion brought up about it on this forum and Reddit.
Because it's been brought up in all of them, and people just point at the gaining and losing actions and ignore you can't act and the supporting links entirely calling it flavour text.

Deriven Firelion |
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Alright I will clarify: they've wilfully ignored it in every discussion brought up about it on this forum and Reddit.
Because it's been brought up in all of them, and people just point at the gaining and losing actions and ignore you can't act and the supporting links entirely calling it flavour text.
It looked like flavor text at first, but after time I accepted it was rules text because otherwise stunned is a worthless condition no different from slow. The can't act is what makes it better and worth the incapacitation trait. Would have been nice if it had been made more clear, but it is what it is.

NorrKnekten |
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The "Can't act" rules is indeed hidden under a few layers of obfuscation from the related rules. Essentially in another section. If you wanna search for it you better just open up the entirety of chapter 8 and search for that phrase specifically instead of Nethys's search bar.
I made a comparison to the Bleed damage rules and premaster Undeads not having the bleed immunity listed as a similarity. Since in the damage types section Bleed Damage is described as not having any effect on the unliving or creatures who doesn't need blood.
Atleast that was clarified in the remaster when Oozes and Undead got their bleed immunity listed.