Backup Character - Paladin or Warpriest

[Toshy]

So, for an upcoming campaign (Strange aeons or hell's rebels) my character will be a cartomancer witch. But since character deaths are possible, I'd like to have a backup.

I heavily lean into a divine fighter type of desna. I want to go with a starknife(tossing) build and am currently indecisive between paladin and warpriest. I'll be a backrow damage dealer with support/heal potential.

For race I'll probably Human or maybe Aasimar (which will delay feats, but brings more flavor).

Here is what I got so far:

Paladin (Divine Hunter):

Cha > Con > Str/Dex, with probably heavy armor

Level 1 - Divine Fighting Technique (Desna's Shooting Star)
Human - Weapon Focus (Starknife)
Divine Hunter - Precise Shot

Level 3 - Point Blank Shot

Level 5 - Startoss Style

Level 7 - Startoss Comet

Level 9 - Quick Draw

Level 11 - Startoss Shower

I would have cha to hit and damage, smite, LoH, channel, divine bond and mercies.

Warpriest:

Dex > Wis > Con/Str, light/medium armor

Level 1 - Weapon Finesse
Human - Starry Grace
Warpriest - Weapon Focus (Starknife)

Level 3 - Point Blank Shot
Warpriest - Precise Shot

Level 5 - Startoss Style

Level 6 - Startoss Comet

Level 7 - Quick Draw

Level 9 - Startoss Shower
Warpriest - open (thinking about Guided Star)

I would have Dex to hit and damage,fervor, channel, blessings, sacred Weapon. Wondering if Guided Star should be earlier (maybe at level 6).

Warpriest would have better spellcasting and better self-buff (via fervor swift castings), but the paladin will probably be bulkier and better for support via LoH, Mercy and Channel, since I can use heavy armor and allocate more points to Con. Blinkback-Belt will be a goto for both. Since I hope my witch will survive a few levels, I'm not too much concerned about the early levels (especially getting a way to retrieve the thrown starknife, either via returning/called or blinkback belt)

What do you think of each? I would like to stay between those two classes and am fixed to the theme of desna and a starknife. Any suggestions to improve or complement aforementioned builds?

[Oli Ironbar]

Unless a switch hitter Paladin fits the party composition better, I would go Warpriest since high AC and self-healing means less from the back/midline.

[Azothath]

Strange Aeons and Hell's Rebels are rather different themes with different, let us say without too much metagaming, requirements. The preferred array of classes changes.
Paladin and Warpriest could fit either way but low skill points will be an issue if you want to do something besides combat (they are just another Aid Another when appropriate).
Paladin is a bit more resilient/resistant but the Warpriest has better healing for others. If you need more healing try Cleric or Oracle(Life) but combat potential will drop a bit. If you need a mix try my samsaran Mage-killer build poaching some witch spells(cure lgt, cure mod) as you get arcane casting and a wide array of skills with combat defense remaining high but it is best at 7th+ level.

[I grok do u]

Azothath wrote:

Strange Aeons and Hell's Rebels are rather different themes with different, let us say without too much metagaming, requirements. The preferred array of classes changes.

This is a good point, but as a backup character at least you'll know what you're playing if you bring it out.

Paladin - Divine Hunter gives up heavy armor proficiency. Some good support auras (aurae?) are traded out for ranged boosts - great if many of your party are ranged, but fear and charm immunity (aura for save boost on allies) very useful in both APs.

Warpriest - Extra feats are always nice, plus can get some fighter-only ones. Gives you the option of either quicker advancement for ranged attack or flexibility to grab some other feats like spell focus or whatever.
Also,

divine fighting technique wrote:

Special: A cleric, inquisitor, or warpriest who worships a deity can choose to give up either the first power of one of her domains or a minor blessing benefit to gain access to her god’s divine fighting technique without having to meet the technique’s prerequisites (including the Divine Fighting Technique feat). In addition, a warpriest can give up a major blessing to gain the advanced benefit without meeting its prerequisites

So, you can grab that aasimar warpriest and get decent WIS and CHA.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The big problem with the paladin is your deity’s alignment is chaotic good and as a paladin you must be lawful good. Since Diving Fighting Style has a prerequisite of matching your deity’s alignment you do not qualify for it and the whole build falls apart. Even if that were not the case the conflict between your alignment and your deity’s is likely to cause problems. What do you do when the paladin’s code conflicts with the code of your deity?

Guided Star requires a swift action which is going to conflict with a lot of the abilities of the warpriest. You are prioritizing DEX so your WIS will not be that high. Weapon specialization is probably a better choice. Point Blank Master is also something you should pick up and that requires weapon specialization as a prerequisite.

If you go human not only, do you get an extra feat at 1st level you also can get an extra combat feat every 6 levels from the human FCB. This will allow you to pick up both weapon specialization and point-blank master at 6th level. Delay taking Startoss Comet till 7th level and quick draw till 9th. You don’t get your second attack until 8th level, so quick draw at 7th level does not do much. With point blank master you can always throw a starknife even when in melee.

[Tom Sampson]

Why not play a Bard if you would like to be a backrow damage dealer with support and healing using Desna's Shooting Star? You can use up one versatile performances to gain Divine Fighting Technique for Desna's Shooting Star and another Advanced Versatile Performance to gain Weapon Focus. With the Varisian Tattoo trait, your character will be proficient with starknives.

[Toshy]

Tom Sampson wrote:

Why not play a Bard

I'd like not to, as we'll already have a skald in our starting group.

"Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Alignment

We are not that strict with Alignment, so a CG paladin of a CG deity following a more lenient "code" will probably be fine, but I'll check with the DM.

I'll check out the modified Warpriest build though.

I grok do u wrote:

Divine Hunter downside

Yeah, I missed the divine Hunter loosing heavy armor and I see the standard abilities might be more useful. Maybe I'll stay with the standard paladin, just have to fit in Precise Shot then.

As a warpriest with divine fighting technique, I'll have to focus on two mental stats, which will penalize my survivability with less points for Dex or Con, and no heavy armor. Don't know if I'd like that.

Azothath wrote:

Cleric or Oracle

We had an Oracle in our last campaign and I like to switch things up a bit (not picking classes we already had).

Cleric might be an option, but with lower BAB and no increased weapon damage or divine bond buff to complement offensive, I'm not sure if I'd go with that.

On another case
We all know the life link Oradin. Would a similar build be possible with a Life Shaman 4 / Warpriest X? With the shamans Life link Hex and the Warpriests fervor and swift self cast to heal, on paper it should work? Or are both classes to depended on their own class levels to consider such a multiclass?

[I grok do u]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The big problem with the paladin is your deity’s alignment is chaotic good and as a paladin you must be lawful good. Since Diving Fighting Style has a prerequisite of matching your deity’s alignment you do not qualify for it and the whole build falls apart. Even if that were not the case the conflict between your alignment and your deity’s is likely to cause problems. What do you do when the paladin’s code conflicts with the code of your deity? ...

Divine anthology (which AoN uses) changed the alignment prerequisite to just worship a deity with a fighting style.

Toshy wrote:

As a warpriest with divine fighting technique, I'll have to focus on two mental stats, which will penalize my survivability with less points for Dex or Con, and no heavy armor. Don't know if I'd like that.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: A warpriest is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, as well as the favored weapon of his deity, and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (except tower shields). If the warpriest worships a deity with unarmed strike as its favored weapon, the warpriest gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

You are probably thinking of clerics not getting heavy armor for free.

Still fair point on having to sacrifice physical scores for extra mental. Though it does mean you can be happier with a blinkback belt without competing with physical enhancing belts immediately.

You can dig in a little more and try middle-aged for extra mental vs loss of physical - mechanical benefit and fun roleplay. Gives your character incentive to be backline.

Fun trick is aasimar for CHA + WIS boost and scion of humanity to get human FCB of 1/6 extra bonus feat.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The warpriest looks to have more potential than the paladin. If you are going the startoss chain vital strike can really add damage. By 12th level you could be +15 to hit and doing 3d10 +22 points of damage with a starknife on the first hit and possibly getting 1 more hits at +15 doing 1d10 +22 damage. This assumes human and using the FCB for extra feats and taking deadly aim at 11th level and casting divine favor (with fervor).

The warpriest sacred weapon damage synergizes with the vital strike chain very well. Warpreist also allows you early access to improved vital strike.

[Taja the Barbarian]

I grok do u wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The big problem with the paladin is your deity’s alignment is chaotic good and as a paladin you must be lawful good. Since Diving Fighting Style has a prerequisite of matching your deity’s alignment you do not qualify for it and the whole build falls apart. Even if that were not the case the conflict between your alignment and your deity’s is likely to cause problems. What do you do when the paladin’s code conflicts with the code of your deity? ...

Divine anthology (which AoN uses) changed the alignment prerequisite to just worship a deity with a fighting style.

...

Per the general interpretation*, worshipers of Desna still need to be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral to get any mechanical benefit, while a Paladin (Divine Hunter) needs to be Lawful Good.

Even the Grey Paladin archetype doesn't work for Desna's faithful as they still 'must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.' Desna is just too much of a free spirit...

*Please note that if you ignore the cleric's 'alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis' alignment restriction because the Paladin's entry doesn't explicitly state it, then Baphomet, Deskari, and Nocticula are also completely valid options for a paladin's worship...
Honestly, the inability of mixing Paladin and Desna's Fighting Technique is probably the only reason the technique got published in the first place. Also, note that this specific technique is the only one that is not PFS legal, presumably due to its sheer power.

[I grok do u]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

...Continuation and elaboration on Mysterious Stranger's point of Desna/Paladin misalignment...

I only noted the change in Divine Fighting Style's prerequisite as it could be easily missed.

Both Mysterious Stranger's and your points are absolutely fair arguments about paladins.

[Toshy]

I think I'll go with Warpriest as a backup, seems easier and more versatile. So thanks for the input.

Someone wants to give his two copper pieces on this one?

Toshy wrote:

We all know the life link Oradin. Would a similar build be possible with a Life Shaman 4 / Warpriest X? With the shamans Life link Hex and the Warpriests fervor and swift self cast to heal, on paper it should work? Or are both classes to depended on their own class levels to consider such a multiclass?

[Java Man]

I'd say both of those classes are too reliant on pure class level.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Typically, an Oradin has 2 levels of paladin, and the rest is oracle. This gives the character better combat ability than the standard oracle and CHA to saves. The CHA to saves is a huge part of what makes the character effective. At high level that is like getting a +5 (or higher) cloak of resistance that stacks with a cloak of resistance. It also gives the oracle the ability to use heavy armor. Since the oracle is a full 9th level caster, they still get high level spells but are about a full spell level behind a straight oracle. By 12th level they have access to 5th level spells. The combination synergizes well because the paladin is offering massive defensive ability.

The Shaman/Warpreist does not gain CHA to save. The shaman 4/warpreist x nerfs the spell casting of the character way too much. By 12th level you will be limited to 2nd level shaman spells and 3rd level cleric spells. Your caster level in both classes is also lower than normal so your spells besides being lower level will be less effective than a single classed character. If you do a shaman 2/ warpriest x it will be a bit better, but your spell casting will still be extremely weak. The warpreist is only a 6/9 caster so gets slower access to spells multiclassing makes this worse. The 2/10 character will have access to 1st level shaman spells and 4th level cleric spells. By comparison a straight oracle (or cleric) will have access to 6th level spells at this point

[Tom Sampson]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Per the general interpretation*, worshipers of Desna still need to be Neutral Good, Chaotic Good, or Chaotic Neutral to get any mechanical benefit, while a Paladin (Divine Hunter) needs to be Lawful Good.

That is not a rule in Pathfinder, at all. There is a significant difference between being a Cleric of a deity and being a worshiper. Just because Clerics are held to more strenuous alignment requirements does not mean that general worship similarly necessitates it. The Paladin has no such requirement within its code of conduct.

Quote:

Even the Grey Paladin archetype doesn't work for Desna's faithful as they still 'must still follow a lawful good, neutral good, or lawful neutral deity.' Desna is just too much of a free spirit...

This would not be the first time Paizo has written content that misremembers the rules. The Prone Shooter feat (which has since received an errata) infamously removed the penalty for shooting crossbows while prone when no such penalty existed, for instance. And there is a disconcerting amount of content that does not appear to realize how bonuses to attack already apply to combat maneuvers.

Quote:

*Please note that if you ignore the cleric's 'alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis' alignment restriction because the Paladin's entry doesn't explicitly state it, then Baphomet, Deskari, and Nocticula are also completely valid options for a paladin's worship...

Honestly, the inability of mixing Paladin and Desna's Fighting Technique is probably the only reason the technique got published in the first place. lso, note that this specific technique is the only one that is not PFS legal, presumably due to its sheer power.

Worship of those deities can still cause you to fall as a code of conduct violation for evil or dishonorable conduct, unless you have a suitable explanation that your GM accepts.

I should also note that the latest FAQ on the subject of stacking ability score modifiers (which is in reality a rules change) indicates that if you use the Divine Fighting Technique, a Paladin cannot stack the bonus to attack from his charisma bonus that comes from Smite Evil as that would be double-stacking an ability modifier from the same ability (the rest of smite evil would still stack, however).

[Azothath]

I gave my input above.

On Worship for the Paladin
...paladins seek not just to spread divine justice but to embody the teachings of the virtuous deities they serve.
Divine Bond (Sp): Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin forms a divine bond with her god. This bond can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.
Holy Champion (Su): At 20th level, a paladin becomes a conduit for the power of her god....
thus a paladin must choose a deity.
The flavor text and code of conduct limits that choice to non-Evil and generally Good(virtuous) & Lawful deity. The Home Game GM should approve the paladins written Code and choice of Deity.
Using a Deities Favored Weapon is stylistic and not a requirement (feats may impose requirements).