2e's ranged combat could do with some more fleshing out


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Teridax, I really like your Aim Feat, Your Critical is also very good.

What do you think about a Run and gun feat for Archers where you Stride and fire in one action and a companion feat 3 levels higher that lets you stride twice and fire for 2 actions or stride once and fire twice for 2 actions.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Could some people in this thread come up with some good feats for gun slingers their class feats are really bad.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Bluemagetim wrote:

Increasing ranged damage isn't what i would want to see.

Aside from tipping the scales toward ranged over melee it also leaves casters in the dust.

Ranged is mostly fine.

As I stated earlier in the thread ranged reactions is the main design space I would like to see developed as it very weak.

You have a lot of good shield reactions.

You have solid melee reactions.

Some more reaction spells have been added and counterspell.

Useful ranged combat reactions are lacking.

Maybe a reaction that does something for an ally within some distance of the ranged character.

lets say its something like a harrying shot.

Trigger: You can see an enemy strike an ally within your first range increment. You have a reload of 0, your weapon is loaded, or have a throwing weapon in hand or have quickdraw and a throwing weapon stowed.

Reaction: You fire a blind shot in the direction of that enemy to hinder them. make an attack roll with the following results.

Crit success: Your blind shot actually connects doing normal damage for a strike. In addition the striking creature takes a -1 circumstance penalty to their strike.
Success: you don't connect but succeed at hindering your enemy, the striking creature takes a -1 circumstance penalty to their strike.
Crit Failure: your shot ended up distracting your ally instead giving a +1 circumstance bonus to the striking creatures strike.


Elric200 wrote:

Teridax, I really like your Aim Feat, Your Critical is also very good.

What do you think about a Run and gun feat for Archers where you Stride and fire in one action and a companion feat 3 levels higher that lets you stride twice and fire for 2 actions or stride once and fire twice for 2 actions.

Much appreciated, thank you! For the run and gun feat you mention, my main point of comparison would be Skirmish Strike: because Striding is generally stronger than Stepping, I could see allowing a Stride+Strike combo as a single-action flourish as a higher-level feat on the Archer, say 12th level. By contrast, Striding twice and Striking once for 2 actions is actually something melee characters can do at level 1 with the Sudden Charge feat: although being able to make a ranged Strike would be a lot stronger due to the easier target access of ranged attacks, I could see that two-action activity being a lower-level feat than the single-action flourish. Because Hunted Shot is a 1st-level feat that lets you shoot twice in a single action, I'd say a two-action activity that lets you Strike twice while Striding once could similarly be okay to implement as a low-level feat.

As for the Gunslinger needing better feats: yeah, I completely agree. I think part of the problem is that ranged characters don't have all that many mechanical hooks to build upon: whereas melee characters can easily accommodate feats that let them Stride up to enemies, exploit flanking in some way, incorporate an Athletics maneuver, or take advantage of the limitations of short melee reaches to do something really powerful, ranged characters don't really have any of that, so it's difficult to give them many diverse mechanics without creating those from scratch. Ideally, with some extra basic actions, conditions, and other mechanics around ranged combat, that could offer more things to play with and develop through feats.


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Bluemagetim wrote:

Maybe a reaction that does something for an ally within some distance of the ranged character.

lets say its something like a harrying shot.

Trigger: You can see an enemy strike an ally within your first range increment. You have a reload of 0, your weapon is loaded, or have a throwing weapon in hand or have quickdraw and a throwing weapon stowed.

Reaction: You fire a blind shot in the direction of that enemy to hinder them. make an attack roll with the following results.

Crit success: Your blind shot actually connects doing normal damage for a strike. In addition the striking creature takes a -1 circumstance penalty to their strike.
Success: you don't connect but succeed at hindering your enemy, the striking creature takes a -1 circumstance penalty to their strike.
Crit Failure: your shot ended up distracting your ally instead giving a +1 circumstance bonus to the striking creatures strike.

That reminds me of a similar idea I had earlier.

Requirement: You're wielding a loaded ranged weapon or a reload 0 ranged weapon.
Trigger: A creature you can see makes a ranged attack roll against an ally within the required weapon's first range increment.

You attempt to redirect an enemy's shot with your own. You make a strike against... some DC? I don't know what. Maybe a standard DC for the foe's level. Anyway, if you succeed, the triggering attack is knocked off its course, missing the targeted ally.

Since hitting a fast-moving target the size of a bullet or arrow would be incredibly difficult, this would have to be a high level class feat. You could consider giving it the restriction of only working against projectile attacks or making it only give a bonus to AC unless you critically succeed.

Right before submitting the post, I found the Redirecting Shot feat, which has similar flavor but a completely different function. It's level 10, so maybe that would be an appropriate level for something like this as well.

Grand Lodge

Are there any rules for a ranged character to use a reaction to shoot an opponent who moves on their turn?

The classic example is a Western gun fight with one shooting from behind a water barrel, and another from behind a water trough. The Barrel guy uses his turn to prepare to shoot the trough guy, who uses his turn to reposition to behind his horse. When trough guy moves, Barrel guy shoots at him.

Would that be worth a feat, or should it just be a rule?

Paizo Employee Community & Social Media Specialist

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A LOT of comments to remove from the weekend here. Thank you to everyone else for keeping things civil, and I hope despite the negativity you all had a good weekend. ^_^


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Aristophanes wrote:

Are there any rules for a ranged character to use a reaction to shoot an opponent who moves on their turn?

The classic example is a Western gun fight with one shooting from behind a water barrel, and another from behind a water trough. The Barrel guy uses his turn to prepare to shoot the trough guy, who uses his turn to reposition to behind his horse. When trough guy moves, Barrel guy shoots at him.

Would that be worth a feat, or should it just be a rule?

Not in Pathfinder to my knowledge, but there is in the Starfinder 2e playtest with the Hair Trigger feat on the Operative:

Starfinder 2e Playtest wrote:

HAIR TRIGGER [reaction] FEAT 2

OPERATIVE
Trigger The last creature you aimed at since the start of your last turn uses a manipulate action or a move action, makes a ranged attack, or leaves a square during a move action.
Requirements You’re wielding a gun.

You attempt a ranged Strike against the triggering creature. If the attack is a critical hit and the trigger was a manipulate action, you disrupt that action. This Strike doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn’t apply to this Strike.

For context, this is the errata'd version, and the Operative class has an Aim action that adds bonus damage dice to your Strike and lets you bypass cover. I will also, however, add the caveat that this feat is utterly busted, at least in my experience: both pre- and post-errata, the trigger was far too easily met in my playtests, and so this basically guaranteed an extra MAP-free Strike most of the time. If you want to integrate it in Pathfinder, I'd make it a higher-level feat and would probably reduce the conditions significantly. Even if it triggered just from movement, though, I'd probably try to limit it to one target at a time (say, the last target of one of your Strikes) so that it doesn't trigger every round.

Sovereign Court

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Yeah, Hair Trigger is crazy. The SF1 tradition of operatives being over the top is continuing (at least in the playtest). I think disrupting actions should generally be limited quite heavily. Reactive Strike is a decent example: once you know someone has it, you have agency to Step away, or maybe Stride far enough away to be out of even long-tentacle reach and then cast your spell. Generally, people hate the thought of losing their spells even more than of getting hit. But with hair trigger, you can't really move out of it at all. Well you could first move entirely out of line of effect, but then casting spells back at them becomes prohibitive.

Most of the things in PF2 that can disrupt actions are melee based. And the ranged ones (implement's reaction for example) are still limited to very short distances on people you've tagged beforehand.

Because ranged attacks in general make it so much harder for enemies to get away from where you can strike them, they shouldn't be nearly as disruptive.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would also think that any of these ranged reactions should require an unobstructed line of sight. This will make ranged positioning matter a lot to be able to use these reactions. Meaning any cover even lesser cover from an ally obstructs these reactions.
Want ranged to be dynamic then there needs to be incentives to not stay in place.

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