Which of your favorite characters has the Remaster killed?

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

If you dislike the changes and don't play in PFS: Why not just ignore them?

[SuperBidi]

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

If you dislike the changes and don't play in PFS: Why not just ignore them?

Unfortunately, my Oracles were PFS characters.

Also, even outside PFS some GMs use PFS rulings (I know I do).

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

SuperBidi wrote:

Also, even outside PFS some GMs use PFS rulings (I know I do).

I do as well, it is usually good guidance. I would not go as far as "kill" a character (concept) with such changes though. Letting somebody continue to play an unremastered oracle - if they want - would be an absolute no-brainer for me.

[Ryangwy]

Remember that the topic is about what characters the remaster killed. Regardless of how good remaster Oracle is, because so much of the remaster Oracle power and identity was invested in Mystery benefits, and Mystery benefits were done away with, pretty much every premaster Oracle cannot be carried over without heavy reflavouring.

The alchemist is changed mechanically as well but not in a way that impacts flavour - whether your mutagenist produces 100 mutagens before breakfast or 10 mutagens every hour doesn't change their flavour, whereas even a Tempest Oracle is flavourwise heavily affected by hydraulic torrent going from dealing bonus electric damage to bonus bludgeoning (and only if you advance your curse).

[Old_Man_Robot]

SuperBidi wrote:

From my absolutely-not-statistically-relevant experience the Oracle changes were a failure. The class is even less played now than it was preremaster.

Which is werid, given that that made the remaster Oracle so much more powerful but lost a lot of its uniqueness.

[Old_Man_Robot]

My Bloodlord Necromancer Wizard doesn't really work anymore.

They were a Lepistadt graduate who used the necromancy slot to take all the antonomy heavy necromancy spells. Less raise-the-dead necromancer, more body horror.

Post remaster I can still technically do this, but I have to trade out normal spellslots to do it while being lumbered with schools spells from School of the Boundary I don't particularly want. I guess he would actually be closer to Protean Form these days, but I also don't really want most of those spells either.

So the remaster didn't kill the character as such, just forced me to trade effectiveness for theme and gave me nothing in return for making me worse.

I was actually rather excited when I thought Rivals was going to introduce Lepistadt as an actual school. I had hoped this character would have been restored, but alas.

[shroudb]

My thaumaturge for KM had to be severely reworked to keep his flavour.

I had reflavoured all the thaum and archetyped Ki stuff to be shamanistic in nature, and my funny little, bite-happy, kobold to be a stumbling shaman that did better bitting and kicking stuff rather than talking with the actual spirits.

Since then, I had to rework him once when kobolds became nondraconic, since his dragon theme was really important for him (hence I had to make him dragonblooded). That impacted him having both a bite and a breath, needing gen feats to accommodate instead.

Monk archetype remaster also was a severe power drop.

More importantly, Rivethun stuff were much closer in flavour, so archetype was also retrained.

---

Character is still pretty much playable, and has kept his flavour, but took quite some work to bring him back where he was.

[SuperBidi]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Which is werid, given that that made the remaster Oracle so much more powerful but lost a lot of its uniqueness.

My gut feeling is that those interested purely by optimization will go for a Sorcerer and then grab the good Oracle stuff through a Dedication. I think you reach higher power through this method (and also you choose your tradition).

[Claxon]

Mathmuse wrote:

It wasn't the Remaster that killed my Bloodrager. It was War of Immortals. I managed to port the character from PF1 to PF2 with a homebrew Bloodline instinct: PF1 Bloodrager Val Baine Converted to PF2. But when bloodrager was officially ported to PF2 as a barbarian-only archetype in War of Immortals, the official PF2 bloodrager was too far from by former PF1 character to port her to that archetype. If she ever makes another cameo appearance, I will have to stop calling her a bloodrager.

I was incredibly disappointed with what we got as a "Bloodrager" in PF2/War of the Immortals.

I was hoping/expecting some more akin to what we got with the Magus...but no.

I was looking for something that was a mesh of spell casting and martial prowess. And was especially looking forward to bloodlines that were kind of the own unique subclasses of powers. Like PF1 Boodrager Arcane bloodline gave you auto spell buffs for raging. Or Aberrant bloodlines reach and various immunity bonuses. Or Abyssal's increased strength and size bonus (and some other benefits).

And I figured those couldn't be ported over exactly the same, but I figured we could get something close. Although Abyssal is almost just being a giant instinct barbarian with a different theme, but there's the lack of built in magic aspect. Of course bloodrager archetype does get you magic, but the bloodrager instinct precludes you from the others that would get the other kinds of powers they used to have. And it wasn't themed around using blood, it was magic via genetics (like Sorcerers).

Anyways...I could dive into it more but I was incredibly disappointed by what we got.

[Lyra Amary]

I told a player in a campaign I'm in who wanted to be a vampire that they should be a Bloodrager because that's basically what it is.

I don't really mind the new Bloodrager, but if they were going to make such drastic changes to the original concept, they should've just named it something else.

[Claxon]

Lyra Amary wrote:

I told a player in a campaign I'm in who wanted to be a vampire that they should be a Bloodrager because that's basically what it is.

I don't really mind the new Bloodrager, but if they were going to make such drastic changes to the original concept, they should've just named it something else.

Agree, I feel like there is a place for what they gave us.

But I wanted something closer to the original (not this blood focused thing).

You're right, that this is almost like a vampire barbarian class.

[MrCharisma]

This technically hasn't been killed since I'm still playing her, but she wouldn't work in the Remaster.

My character in our QftFF game is RENNA, a FIGHTER with the DRUID ARCHETYPE (we're using the Free Archetype rules). The crux of her abilities is that she uses WILD SHAPE/UNTAMED FORM to transform, then uses her superior Fighter attack bonus in the ANIMAL FORM to get lots of crits.

The reason it doesn't work in the remaster is because Fighters are quirky. Even though they have the highest proficiency with weapons, you have to choose a specific weapon group, and none of the weapon groups have "unarmed attacks" as an option (There's a strong argument that the Brawling Group works with the Ape form's Fist attacks, but that's more limiting than a wild-shape martial should be). The solution was to take the PRE-MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST DEDICATION feat which gives you full scaling with "Unarmed Attacks" that keep up with your highest proficiency bonus, meaning your Fighter weapon expertise now works for unarmed attacks. Unfortunately the REMASTER MARTIAL ARTIST DEDICATION lost the language about unarmed attacks using your highest proficiency. It likely Only matters for this particular build, but it was an annoying change for me personally =P

Fortunately since we were already playing the campaign the GM didn't want me to have to change character, so she's still adventuring and still gets her full proficiency bonus. I decided that if I was being a Pre-Master character I should commit to that, so I don't get to wear metal armour (Druid restrictions) but i'm totally happy with that.

[Claxon]

MrCharisma wrote:

This technically hasn't been killed since I'm still playing her, but she wouldn't work in the Remaster.

My character in our QftFF game is RENNA, a FIGHTER with the DRUID ARCHETYPE (we're using the Free Archetype rules). The crux of her abilities is that she uses WILD SHAPE/UNTAMED FORM to transform, then uses her superior Fighter attack bonus in the ANIMAL FORM to get lots of crits.

The reason it doesn't work in the remaster is because Fighters are quirky. Even though they have the highest proficiency with weapons, you have to choose a specific weapon group, and none of the weapon groups have "unarmed attacks" as an option (There's a strong argument that the Brawling Group works with the Ape form's Fist attacks, but that's more limiting than a wild-shape martial should be). The solution was to take the PRE-MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST DEDICATION feat which gives you full scaling with "Unarmed Attacks" that keep up with your highest proficiency bonus, meaning your Fighter weapon expertise now works for unarmed attacks. Unfortunately the REMASTER MARTIAL ARTIST DEDICATION lost the language about unarmed attacks using your highest proficiency. It likely Only matters for this particular build, but it was an annoying change for me personally =P

Fortunately since we were already playing the campaign the GM didn't want me to have to change character, so she's still adventuring and still gets her full proficiency bonus. I decided that if I was being a Pre-Master character I should commit to that, so...

Hmmm, I hadn't noticed this interaction. I'd actually built a similar character once for giggles but never actually got to play it. Seems like I probably never will :(

Not that the character doesn't work at all, but you wouldn't enjoy the main benefit of being a fighter for the build (the higher proficiency).

For a similar feel I'd probably end up playing an Animal Instinct Barbarian, but it sucks that you can't polymorph and take advantage of the fighter's higher proficiency.

[MrCharisma]

Claxon wrote:

Not that the character doesn't work at all, but you wouldn't enjoy the main benefit of being a fighter for the build (the higher proficiency).

For a similar feel I'd probably end up playing an Animal Instinct Barbarian, but it sucks that you can't polymorph and take advantage of the fighter's higher proficiency.

Sorry I'm late to the party (I need to check in here more often), but I thought I'd jump back in.

My original idea was actually to play a Monk with the Druid dedcation and be a bear with Flurry of Blows. There are some other nice synergies as well, pretty much every Monk feat that isn't a stance works in Animal Form, the speeed boost still works, and you can even get a Fly Speed as any anmial using WIND JUMP (cast Wind Jump as 1 action, then Animal Form for 2 actions, then for the next 10 rounds you're a flying Moose or whatever).

Unfortunately my Monk died literally 1 round before we hit level 2, so he never got the Druid dedication. That did leave the character concept open to my backup character though, so I went with Fighter and have been pleasantly surprised with the utility options and synergies available (well, available if you're not using the remaster).

I'm sure there are still a bunch of builds like this using Barbaian/Monk/etc that still work, but unfortunately the exact build I'm using doesn't =P

If you have a build that works though, I find it really fun and wholeheartedly encourage it!