Hello, I’m playing a table of RotRL ran by a friend who’s starting GMing because of me GMing, and one of the party members has nailed their character down as an ifrit gunslinger.
I’m currently debating between going full offense and magic with a Dex based, rapier wielding magus (definitely getting Fencing Grace by 3rd level), or the party’s dedicated healer as a cleric of Erastil.
I have not played either classes, and would love some advice on either one.
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Short Bits:
Fencing/Slashing Grace doesn't work with spell combat. FAQ.
However you can use the agile weapon special ability.
Dex-based magi in general do a ton of damage and are pretty survivable.
You don't really need a "dedicated healer" in Pathfinder. In fact if you try to build as one you'll often find yourself bored with nothing to do. Fortunately there are tons of cleric archetypes that give you things to do in addition to the occasional heal. From the summon-focused Herald Caller to the buffing, not-quite-a-bard Evangelist you can find lots of combat niches as options. I hesitate to give much more detailed advice without knowing what you find interesting. (Other than to say that the theoretically combat-specialized Crusader archetype is pretty weak considering what you give up.)
In that case I’ll skip the magus thing and focus on being support. The game I’m running isn’t allowing archetypes, if that was the case I would look at Arcane Healer but alas.
For cleric of Erastil, I was thinking along the lines of a support caster who is more than capable of some combat with the longbow. The domains I would choose would be Animal (for the animal companion-would most likely choose wolf or small cat) and Good.
Of course, I could go for inquisitor or warpriest of any of the good gods, not just Erastil.
If you haven’t played cleric before, they go through an unexpected focus change as you level up. At low level, your martial abilities will matter more and be relatively ok compared to martial classes. But as you level and gain more spells per day, your martial abilities will sit unused as casting a spell becomes a better use of your turn than swinging a sword or shooting a bow.
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It's really hard to make a bow-wielding cleric more than "OK" at ranged combat, especially if archetypes aren't allowed. There are just too many feats required.
Inquisitor or Warpriest - yeah, they both make great ranged attackers. The inquisitor (in particular) is a great party buffer, and can take the animal domain. But you are giving up the higher level cleric spells, which your party may need.
I think the warpriest is better as a support caster than the inquisitor. But the inquisitor has a lot of other skill advantages. Both can make good archers in different ways. The inquisitor can spike higher but the warpriest has good sustain.
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I think the warpriest is better as a support caster than the inquisitor.
It's a matter of opinion, and in what you are looking for in a "support" caster. I value the inquisitor pretty high because of the variety of long-duration buff spells that can be party force multipliers. Spells that you cast at the beginning of the day and don't need to worry about during combat. I've played several of them, and once I pass 7th level I'm pulling out my lesser Rods of Extends and chucking heroism, greater magic weapon, and magic vestment until I run out of spell slots.
You’re pretty likely to have an arcane caster to cast heroism anyway. Magic weapon and magic vestment don’t stack with the native enhancement bonuses on items, so they aren’t typically very relevant, unless you are in a low wealth game.
By support I meant more like condition removal or even healing. But warpriest also has the prepared caster advantage of leaving a spell slot empty to prepare what is needed in the field.
The cleric of Erastil can work fine. As Melkiador pointed out as clerics level up their weapons become less important. If you go this route, you do not need to focus fully on archery to be effective. If you go human, you can pick up point-blank shot and precise shot at 1st level. That will allow you to function as an archer at low levels before your spells begin to come into their own. Take Deadly aim at 3rd level to get some extra damage. Take the Animal (or Feather) and Good domain. Use your 5th level feat to take Boon companion to boost up your animal companion to full progression. After this spend your feats boosting your spells or other things instead of archery.
At low level your archery will give your character something valuable to contribute to combat. After your spells become more effective you can still use it when needed. One thing it may be useful for is to finish off a wounded target without having to use spells. This will probably be mostly at the end of the combat after you have cast your spells. Using a bow to finish off a target with a few HP left is a good tactic. An opponent with 2 HP left can still attack and damage a party member. Putting the wounded target down saves the parities resources so is away good.
Your animal companion will also give you something else to contribute to combat. When you get the animal companion at 4th level it will be pretty weak, but once you get to 5th level and take boon companion it should be fine.
If you go Inquisitor of Erastil take the feather domain. It replaces speak with animal to a bonus on perception. Follow the same feat progression I listed above to 5th level, but after that go more of an archery focused character. Pick up Rapid Shot and Manyshot at 7th and 9th level. This character will be more of an archer than the cleric. Bane and Judgements will keep you chance to hit and damage up even with the slower progression of feats. There are some archery focused feats but not a lot. This character will be very good at skills.
We’re playing with Elephant in the Room rules so one of the two 1st level feats will be Precise Shot. I believe the other 1st level feat could be Extra Channel to get more usage out of channel positive energy?
As for animal companions, I’m really debating between big cat (though idk what big cats, if any, live in Varisia) or wolf. Small cat (aka firepelt cougar) would be fitting for the campaign and probably better than the big cat with Elephant in the Room rules; alternatively, a megaloceros would be thematically fitting for a cleric of Erastil, but how to explain those giant deer living in Varisia would be a challenge.
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The Hinterlander prestige class makes a decent cleric archer
or warpriest (arsenal chaplin) makes an amazing divine archer
To be honest, I find that Clerics are quite underrated as archers. If one is doing a dedicated archery build, it is more than a match for a Fighter once his self-buffs come into play, especially with the benefits of the Elephant in the Room feat tax reductions.
If you worship Erastil, you could just choose the Feather subdomain for an animal companion, use a Boon Companion feat, and take the Evangelist prestige class. Erastil's 2nd and 3rd boons will be particularly effective. You can also use the Erastil's Blessing feat if you just want to make your attack rolls with wisdom, or do both (and then choose to use dexterity as your attack modifier when attacking foes within 30 feet so you can get both dex and wis to attack), but that would require some feats.
At any rate, as long as you have the Fate's Favored and Deadeye Bowman traits you should be rather effective with a longbow.
I’ll have to see if my DM will allow Evangelist. If I go that path, what’s a good level to start leveling into evangelist?
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I’ll have to see if my DM will allow Evangelist. If I go that path, what’s a good level to start leveling into evangelist?
6. No matter when you start with Evangelist, your primary class features are delayed exactly one level.
A cleric 5/evangelist 5 has all the abilities of a 9th-level cleric and a 5th-level evangelist.
A cleric 8/evangelist 2 has all the abilities of a 9th-level cleric and a 2nd-level evangelist.
You want to get into evangelist as soon as possible.
I got the confirmation that evangelist is available. My one concern is spells-should I alternate levels for cleric and evangelist to get more spells?
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I got the confirmation that evangelist is available. My one concern is spells-should I alternate levels for cleric and evangelist to get more spells?
Re-read the evangelist description. The Aligned Class feature means that from evangelist 2 to evangelist 10 you get EVERYTHING you would have gotten if those levels were cleric levels (except HD, BAB, saves, and skill ranks). Including cleric spells.
I got the confirmation that evangelist is available. My one concern is spells-should I alternate levels for cleric and evangelist to get more spells?Re-read the evangelist description. The Aligned Class feature means that from evangelist 2 to evangelist 10 you get EVERYTHING you would have gotten if those levels were cleric levels (except HD, BAB, saves, and skill ranks). Including cleric spells.
I didn’t see adding spells to it so I wasn’t sure if you gained your class’s spells too. That’s honestly insane. My final question is, say we get to
level 20 and I end up with cleric 7/evangelist 10, and I spend the last 3 levels in cleric. does that mean I add all the HD, BAB, saves and skill ranks from cleric 8 but gain the cleric abilities and spells at level 18?|
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I didn’t see adding spells to it so I wasn’t sure if you gained your class’s spells too. That’s honestly insane.
It can look that way at first, but it's really not. The "lost level" is a major balancing factor. Most of the prestige class abilities aren't very strong: getting the boons earlier and Spiritual Form are the biggies and you don't get those until you have a lot of prestige class levels. In a real campaign (slowly leveling up, not theorycrafting a specific level character) being a level "behind" in your primary class is noticeable but not dealbreaking.
I personally think it's one of the best designed prestige classes.
My final question is, say we get to level 20 and I end up with cleric 7/evangelist 10, and I spend the last 3 levels in cleric. does that mean I add all the HD, BAB, saves and skill ranks from cleric 8 but gain the cleric abilities and spells at level 18?
Almost. If you were a cleric 7/evangelist 10, you would have the abilities (spells, domains, and channel) of a 16th-level cleric. If your next level is cleric, you would get the spells and abilities of a 17th-level cleric. You were correct on the others: you would get the HD, BAB, saves, and skill ranks of going from cleric 7 to 8.
One thing about the evangelist is they must perform the obedience every day or they lose access to all abilities of the evangelist including aligned class. Most of the time this is not a problem but, in some cases, you may run into a situation where you cannot perform the obedience. That means if the 5th level cleric 10th level evangelist fails to perform the obedience, they have the powers of a 5th level cleric. I would assume that you still get the BAB saves HP and skills, but you lose everything else.
In some cases, the obedience requires specific items. Most of the time these items are not difficult to obtain and do not cost much but without those items your character is screwed. For example, a evangelist of Abadar that does not have a collection of coins, gems, and keys will not be able to perform the obedience and lose the abilities. If the GM put the characters in a situation where they lose all their equipment the evangelist could be in trouble.
Erastil’s obedience doesn’t seem to be that demanding-either you bury seeds in the shape of an arrow, or you leave some food on the side of a path.
I do wanna go on this path because it’s a mix of what I want to be-support caster-and what I know how to play-archer. I played a kobold ranger and he was very excellent at taking down foes with his bow.
The seeds must be buried in fertile earth. The alternate also assumes you have seeds, preserved food or arrows. For the most part will not be difficult, but some circumstances may make it impossible. For example, what is your character is in a boat at sea, or if you are locked up in a prison cell. For the most part it should not be a problem but be aware it may become a problem.
If you are imprisoned you will have a hard time placing them where a passerby will encounter them. If do not have not have Create Food and Water you cannot cast it. Also, the food created with Create Food and Water spoils after 24 hours so probably does not qualify as preserved food.
I am not saying this will be a huge problem, but it can come up. It is one of the restrictions of the prestige class so the player should be aware of it.
Even in a prison, there could be other prisoners or guards who may pass by. A prison could even be considered a community. The hard part is getting the materials.
The specifics do not really matter. The point is that the character may encounter a situation where he loses most of his abilities. That fact is a major balance of the class. The class advances all class features of the original class and gives even more abilities. Losing one level of abilities is not enough to balance everything the prestige class gives. The balance for all the extra abilities is the risk that sometimes you will be nearly powerless.
Unless the campaign is in a modern setting there is probably no prison cantina, nor will the prisoners be given a choice of food. More likely it will be some sort of gruel that barely keeps the prisoner alive.
The fact of the matter is that the class specifically states if you are unable to perform the obedience you lose access to all class abilities. If the restriction was not meant to be used it should not have been included in the class. RAW an evangelist loses all class abilities for failure to perform his obedience. This is no different than a druid’s restriction on metal armor.
I was thinking of having the character be a human cleric. But also an aasimar would be thematically fitting. I’m not that big on going all max out meta wise. I’m still sticking with human.
Having an Animal companion 4 levels lower than a druid is going to make it extremely weak. I would suggest picking up boon companion or go with a different domain. If you are going evangelist boon companion will actually be even better. It allows you to treat your animal companion as if it were 4 levels higher. So, not only does it take care of the fact that your druid level is considered 3 levels low than your cleric, but it also makes up for the lost level from aligned class not starting till 2nd level.
As I said the situation does not matter. If you insist on having a situation detailed, then the classic capture take away all you gear and throw you into a dungeon where you wake up 24 hours later with no food or gear. Since 24 hours have passed, and you have not fulfilled the obligation you lose all abilities from evangelist including caster level. Being sick could even cause you to be unable to perform your obedience.
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Oh, good grief. Can we please give it a rest!
Yes, you have to perform an obedience. Yes, there are circumstances that mean you can't perform the obedience. Yes, those circumstances are rare. Yes, you can be clever about solutions. Yes, those circumstances could still happen.
No one disagrees with any of that. You're not actually debating anything here.
I…did not mean for this to derail into an argument about obediences.
Imo, how difficult an obdeience is largely depends on two things-the location where the campaign is taking place, and how the campaign is going to flow. In Erastil’s case it’s a pretty easy obedience and the chances of being unable to perform it, while not impossible, are very low.
An example of an obedience that might be tough to pull on a typical campaign is through Torag. Quote:
After reciting a traditional prayer to Torag, either work at a forge or strike a small replica of an anvil or a sizable flat stone with a hammer for at least 10 minutes. If the sound of your hammer draws a creature near, encourage it to join in your worship of the Father of Creation. If hostilities become inevitable, leap into the fray with a battle shout in praise of Torag. Perform some small act toward maintaining your weapon, such as sharpening or polishing it, as you conclude your obedience with another prayer to Torag’s might and wisdom. Alternatively, if you have created something through this effort, grant it to the next person you meet who strikes you as fair and honorable. Gain a +1 sacred bonus on all attack rolls made with warhammers.
Compare that to the obedience of Sarenrae. Quote:
The Dawnflower values the redemptive powers of compassion and patience, and extends them to all who might be capable of good. Offer to heal a stranger of his wounds, either by using the powers granted to you by Sarenrae or with a potion, scroll, or other item you possess. Tell the stranger it is by the will of Sarenrae that you share your healing gifts. You may also use your Heal skill to perform this act of healing service. If you can’t find a stranger who will accept your offer, stand beneath the open sky during the daylight hours. Blindfold yourself with a red-and-gold scarf and try to locate the sun in the sky through the layers of fabric. Gain a +2 sacred bonus on Perception checks.
Comparing the two, Sarenrae’s obedience is much easier to pull off in a typical campaign setting, whereas Torag practically requires downtime and for the campaign to largely be set in a single location.
Plus, I’m pretty sure how one is able to pull off an obedience is determined by the GM. If you have a GM that is willing to bend the rules so that you don’t lose your prestige class abilities, that’s great. If you have a GM that sticks to RAW like glue, then maybe the obedience based prestige classes aren’t good choices.
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I need to find where it's explicitly stated, but obediences can be performed as part of normal spell preparation/renewal. One hour to do all of it.
Most of the obediences are fairly easy to do as long as the GM isn't being a jerk about it. Especially the Core 20, who usually have one or more alternates to the preferred way of doing things.
Read Torag's again, really carefully. All you need to do is carry around a small replica of an anvil, a hammer, and a whetstone. Hit the anvil for 10 minutes, then sharpen your sword. Even if nothing happens while you are using them as proscribed, you have successfully performed the obedience. Just like Erastil's, it's only going to be a problem if the GM is putting you in situations where your gear gets taken from you.
Now, if you want an obedience there's almost no chance an adventurer will be able to perform every day, look at Ragathiel.
Plus, I’m pretty sure how one is able to pull off an obedience is determined by the GM. If you have a GM that is willing to bend the rules so that you don’t lose your prestige class abilities, that’s great. If you have a GM that sticks to RAW like glue, then maybe the obedience based prestige classes aren’t good choices.
That was my whole point. I would talk to your GM about this before taking the prestige class.