Undead Characters: The Forgotten Children of PF

[GeometricFuzz]

I recently thought of playing a skeleton exemplar. Some great RP potential and a bit of a challenge due to the topsy-turvey rules of void healing. However, as I worked on the character I realized being undead in PFS isn't just a challenge. I feel like having void healing is excessively punished in RAW at every turn. Yes, PFS allows characters to have Oils of Unlife, but it feels that came as something of an afterthought. Any other option given almost feels like a bandaid applied as an afterthought as well. For example, to use Treat Wounds requires spending an extra feat, Stitch Flesh.

What's really got me pulling my hair is when we have cases like exemplar. The class has some great options for self-healing, except none of them work for an undead character. Scar of the Survivor: No Scar But This has the vitality tag. Barrow's Edge: Drink of My Foes has the vitality tag (even though the mechanics of the ability seem down right vampiric). Horn of Plenty cannot hold Oil of Undeath.

I understand not every class has self-healing options. Often times even classes that do have healing need to turn to feats and items to fill in gaps. I also get that playing undead (skeleton or damphir) is supposed to be a challenge. But when major sections of classes with healing options are cut off, when extra feat taxes are incurred, when a character has to progress (survive) through several levels to begin having access to basic survivability options others get from the start, it starts feeling more like punishment rather than a challenge.

[HammerJack]

Undead are certainly much worse off than living characters, in the number of healing options available (with living characters who have Void Healing in the middle between them). I don't think anyone would try to argue with that.

I am slightly confused about this thread, though? There isn't really anything PFS specific about that, and I'm not sure of this was just a thread to vent or if there's also a question that someone (whether or not it's me) can help with? If it's the latter, I'd like to help, but I'm missing it.

[GeometricFuzz]

HammerJack wrote:

I am slightly confused about this thread, though? There isn't really anything PFS specific about that, and I'm not sure of this was just a thread to vent or if there's also a question that someone (whether or not it's me) can help with? If it's the latter, I'd like to help, but I'm missing it.

Admittedly, this is a rant first. Maybe not about PFS per se, but an issue of rules as written. Is there a place to submit potential suggestions for rule changes, or something?

In the case of the character I mentioned I'm trying to create, I'm running into the issue that areas where there was an attempt as some point in developing the rules to give an option for characters with Void Healing has been forgotten or no longer considered. Oils of Unlife are basically replacements for Elixirs of Life, but being neither potion nor elixir they are incompatible with Horn of Plenty. Barrow's Edge: Drink My Foes screams a vampiric like transfer of health (and therefore maybe should not really have the Vitality tag), but the philosophy seems to be that any ability with healing now has the Vitality tag regardless (except Elixirs of Life). The exemplar class basically gives 3 ikon options for healing, and void healing effectively shuts all of them down.

I could go on with some other things, but I don't know if this is going to end up anywhere meaningful to game play. I know developers can't possibly consider every permutation of every option they create in the game. I am wondering how much consideration is being made about some of these issues, like characters with Void Healing, that lurk in the system.

[GeometricFuzz]

Now, maybe if we are looking for a more PFS specific issue, I have a question about the character build. What options are there in PFS for playing a skeleton (or damphir) and having healing options? What options I have been able to cobble together involve using up a good amount of feats and hoping to reach a high enough level for the build to kick in, and the intense consumption of consumables. The least feat and gold taxing option I can work out is to get Stitch Flesh to use treat wounds between fights, but then hope I don't get too beat up during fights.

[cavernshark]

GeometricFuzz wrote:

Now, maybe if we are looking for a more PFS specific issue, I have a question about the character build. What options are there in PFS for playing a skeleton (or damphir) and having healing options? What options I have been able to cobble together involve using up a good amount of feats and hoping to reach a high enough level for the build to kick in, and the intense consumption of consumables. The least feat and gold taxing option I can work out is to get Stitch Flesh to use treat wounds between fights, but then hope I don't get too beat up during fights.

Anything with access Harm (divine spell casters), so Divine Witches, Divine Sorcerers, Divine Summoners, Oracles, Clerics, and Animists. The Undead Sorcerer Bloodline and the Bones Oracle are also particularly handy. The former can allow you to heal allies with Harm even when they don't have Void healing or improve your own Harms on yourself. The latter can use Nudge the Scales to give yourself Vitality healing and to flexibly heal undead or living targets. Champions can now take Touch of the Void as long as you're not sanctifying holy, which is a significant level of flexibility that didn't exist previously. You noted Stitch Flesh, so any class with extra ability to invest in Medicine (and Battle Medicine) like Rogues or Investigators (especially Forensic Medicine). You may also want to grab the Robust Health general feat at 3 to ensure you can be healed by Stitch Flesh battle medicine more often. Any Occult caster can also get access to Soothe. It's not quite as good as Harm but it works.

An option to make Exemplar work would be to take Oracle Dedication at 2 and then Nudge the Scales at 4. Your vitality healing options would now work. It would take until level 4 to work though.

[GeometricFuzz]

cavernshark wrote:

An option to make Exemplar work would be to take Oracle Dedication at 2 and then Nudge the Scales at 4. Your vitality healing options would now work. It would take until level 4 to work though.

This is part of my issue. Void Healing causes an issue where healing options are cut off from too many angles. Either the player has to select from specific classes and options (although, there are a decent amount of those overall) and give up on other classes and options, or spend extra feats and wait several levels. Even Stitch Flesh isn't an option until level 2. What really gets me are the cases where it's clear that the class is designed to have self-healing at the start (such as the exemplar), yet now it requires at least 2 class feats and waiting until level 4 to make use of them (such as gaining Nudge the Scales). On top of that, I would still have to take the ikon(s) at level 1 or wait until level 8 to pick it up. (I sincerely would be interested in the reasoning for giving Drink of My Foes the vitality tag, and what problem there would be in removing it or at least let it be either vitality or void as desired.)

Maybe some might argue that other classes don't get self-healing options, but at least they don't have to worry so much about other characters having the niche feats, spells, and skills to provide healing at level 1. As in the case of my skeleton character, I can't confidently bring him to a PFS table and play. I have to check what other players are bringing and if they are able and willing to deal with my Void Healing issues.

As a side comparison, I want to bring up the issue of the construct ancestries: Automatons and Poppets. Normally constructs would face some similar issues as those with void healing, in that they are unaffected by healing, vitality, and void effects. However, as ancestries these issues are waved away by saying they are living creatures, unlike other constructs. This makes them not have to worry about any of these issues at all. Heal spells, treat wounds, and even Elixirs of Life work with no special considerations or restrictions.

[cavernshark]

I don't really know what to tell you other than: I've played with several Skeletons at PFS tables and they've generally brought some self healing with them or potions they've handed to others to apply to them if they go down. Even if you can't cast it yourself, you can select a Scroll of Harm with Pathfinder Provisions and hand it to someone who can as an emergency. And it's sometimes an annoyance but generally isn't an issue. You can invest in things like a Channel Protection Amulet, which is accessible via a few scenarios and I think a purchasable boon to minimize your exposure to blocking 3 action heals.

The Skeletons and Undead archetypes are expressly Rare due to how complicated they are in a standard game. PFS has made it significantly more accessible to play as a negative healing ancestry with as many global changes as they can. But you're still opting into a harder mode and not all ancestries necessarily work equally well with all classes. I can't speak to why they decided to make Constructs living instead of constructed (though I can guess given that being a Construct has huge advantages and the fact that the rules for Repairing instead of healing would make them significantly more different).

I think you're also overlooking how many advantages you do get as a Skeleton PC: immunity to void damage (fairly common), immunity to death effects, bonuses against poison and disease, not needing to breath (PFS ruling), and arguably bleed immunity by virtue of not living (in the Bleed mechanic, not the undead side).

You're trading immunity to those problems that living Pathfinder's face for having more issues healing. You can really easily offset this with just a bit of work without it being a hindrance to the party. You could also investigate making a different kind of Exemplar which fights more from range to avoid some of the risks of constant damage in melee.

[GeometricFuzz]

cavernshark wrote:

Even if you can't cast it yourself, you can select a Scroll of Harm with Pathfinder Provisions and hand it to someone who can as an emergency.

Where is the Scroll of Harm an option? I'm sure I read in an official thread that said it was excluded. Oils of Unlife are listed as an option.

[cavernshark]

Void Energy Healing

Quote:

Any time a Pathfinder Society NPC or allied NPC provides a healing potion or heal spell (as a casting, wand, scroll, effect of a boon including promotional boon, or other similar effect), a PC who relies on void energy healing can receive an oil of unlife GMC pg. 258, APG pg. 258 or harm spell PC pg. 334, CRB pg. 343Player Core page 334

Core Rulebook page 343
(click to close) of an equal spell rank instead.

The player must make this request at the time the healing is supplied. Treasure found during the adventure and gifts from NPCs not affiliated with the Pathfinder Society are unaffected.

Pathfinder Provisions Table - Other Items

Quote:

1st-rank scroll of heal* (Player Core 335)

Note: Scrolls marked with an asterisk (*) can be chosen at higher levels, heightened to an appropriate level for the character. For example, a 5th-level character could receive a 3rd-rank scroll of heal.

So, Pathfinder Provisions are 1) an Pathfinder NPC, 2) providing you a casting of Heal, 3) in the form of a scroll. As long as you've got void healing, you can select the Harm version. Other party members cannot make that choice, but you can and hand it to someone else. And you can selected a heightened version just as the Heal choice can be heightened.

[HammerJack]

I might also point out that while Elixirs of Life don't work for undead, Soothing Tonic and Numbing Tonic are a couple of alchemical elixirs that would help a skeleton who is trying to prop themselves up with elixirs

[Blake's Tiger]

I know what I'm about to type isn't helpful.

There's no game-based driver to ensure a Rare race is compatible with a Rare class. The intent of those tags would be for the GM to decide if that's a reasonable combination to allow. Since PFS throws open the gates, there's nobody to tell anyone that some configurations of those two Rare options don't work.

[JohannVonUlm]

I have a skeleton character myself. Mine started as a cleric of Horus and rebuilt to an Exemplar when Horus disappeared. When playing a skeleton, you need to plan ahead for healing yourself as you can't plan for another player to sit down with that option. Still, there are options:

- Buy scrolls of Harm, Elixirs of Unlife. Cost of "living" expense.

- Train yourself in Medicine, grab Stitch Flesh skill feat at first level (common skill feat, Book of the Dead). Can't count on someone else to have this.

- Soothe spell, 1st level (doesn't have vitality) Make some Bard friends

- Pearly White Spindle Aeon Stone, level 3, 60gp (doesn't have vitality). Living and undead swear by this

- Soothing Tonic elixir (fast healing)

- Numbing Tonic elixir (temp HP)

- Belt of Health (need access from playing the beginner box). Extra HP.

- Toughness skill feat (more HP)

- Living Monolith archetype (uncommon - you need access) Makes you tough to kill.

I'm sure there are things out there I'm not remembering. It's tough, but some think the juice is worth the squeeze.