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Class: Exemplar
Rules: Barrow's Edge transcendence (Drink of My Foes), Scar of the Survivor transcendence (No Scar But This)
Issue: Do these abilities need to have the vitality trait? As is, this cuts off self-healing options in the class from those who have/use the void healing ability. Drink of My Foes especially seems like it was intended to be a health drain effect that could easily have the void trait.

Even if you can't cast it yourself, you can select a Scroll of Harm with Pathfinder Provisions and hand it to someone who can as an emergency.

Where is the Scroll of Harm an option? I'm sure I read in an official thread that said it was excluded. Oils of Unlife are listed as an option.

An option to make Exemplar work would be to take Oracle Dedication at 2 and then Nudge the Scales at 4. Your vitality healing options would now work. It would take until level 4 to work though.

This is part of my issue. Void Healing causes an issue where healing options are cut off from too many angles. Either the player has to select from specific classes and options (although, there are a decent amount of those overall) and give up on other classes and options, or spend extra feats and wait several levels. Even Stitch Flesh isn't an option until level 2. What really gets me are the cases where it's clear that the class is designed to have self-healing at the start (such as the exemplar), yet now it requires at least 2 class feats and waiting until level 4 to make use of them (such as gaining Nudge the Scales). On top of that, I would still have to take the ikon(s) at level 1 or wait until level 8 to pick it up. (I sincerely would be interested in the reasoning for giving Drink of My Foes the vitality tag, and what problem there would be in removing it or at least let it be either vitality or void as desired.)

Maybe some might argue that other classes don't get self-healing options, but at least they don't have to worry so much about other characters having the niche feats, spells, and skills to provide healing at level 1. As in the case of my skeleton character, I can't confidently bring him to a PFS table and play. I have to check what other players are bringing and if they are able and willing to deal with my Void Healing issues.

As a side comparison, I want to bring up the issue of the construct ancestries: Automatons and Poppets. Normally constructs would face some similar issues as those with void healing, in that they are unaffected by healing, vitality, and void effects. However, as ancestries these issues are waved away by saying they are living creatures, unlike other constructs. This makes them not have to worry about any of these issues at all. Heal spells, treat wounds, and even Elixirs of Life work with no special considerations or restrictions.

Now, maybe if we are looking for a more PFS specific issue, I have a question about the character build. What options are there in PFS for playing a skeleton (or damphir) and having healing options? What options I have been able to cobble together involve using up a good amount of feats and hoping to reach a high enough level for the build to kick in, and the intense consumption of consumables. The least feat and gold taxing option I can work out is to get Stitch Flesh to use treat wounds between fights, but then hope I don't get too beat up during fights.

I am slightly confused about this thread, though? There isn't really anything PFS specific about that, and I'm not sure of this was just a thread to vent or if there's also a question that someone (whether or not it's me) can help with? If it's the latter, I'd like to help, but I'm missing it.

Admittedly, this is a rant first. Maybe not about PFS per se, but an issue of rules as written. Is there a place to submit potential suggestions for rule changes, or something?

In the case of the character I mentioned I'm trying to create, I'm running into the issue that areas where there was an attempt as some point in developing the rules to give an option for characters with Void Healing has been forgotten or no longer considered. Oils of Unlife are basically replacements for Elixirs of Life, but being neither potion nor elixir they are incompatible with Horn of Plenty. Barrow's Edge: Drink My Foes screams a vampiric like transfer of health (and therefore maybe should not really have the Vitality tag), but the philosophy seems to be that any ability with healing now has the Vitality tag regardless (except Elixirs of Life). The exemplar class basically gives 3 ikon options for healing, and void healing effectively shuts all of them down.

I could go on with some other things, but I don't know if this is going to end up anywhere meaningful to game play. I know developers can't possibly consider every permutation of every option they create in the game. I am wondering how much consideration is being made about some of these issues, like characters with Void Healing, that lurk in the system.

I recently thought of playing a skeleton exemplar. Some great RP potential and a bit of a challenge due to the topsy-turvey rules of void healing. However, as I worked on the character I realized being undead in PFS isn't just a challenge. I feel like having void healing is excessively punished in RAW at every turn. Yes, PFS allows characters to have Oils of Unlife, but it feels that came as something of an afterthought. Any other option given almost feels like a bandaid applied as an afterthought as well. For example, to use Treat Wounds requires spending an extra feat, Stitch Flesh.

What's really got me pulling my hair is when we have cases like exemplar. The class has some great options for self-healing, except none of them work for an undead character. Scar of the Survivor: No Scar But This has the vitality tag. Barrow's Edge: Drink of My Foes has the vitality tag (even though the mechanics of the ability seem down right vampiric). Horn of Plenty cannot hold Oil of Undeath.

I understand not every class has self-healing options. Often times even classes that do have healing need to turn to feats and items to fill in gaps. I also get that playing undead (skeleton or damphir) is supposed to be a challenge. But when major sections of classes with healing options are cut off, when extra feat taxes are incurred, when a character has to progress (survive) through several levels to begin having access to basic survivability options others get from the start, it starts feeling more like punishment rather than a challenge.

The real answer to your problem is to ask the GM for what is the tiniest of mechanically significant homebrew changes.

Ask them if your PC's ikons can be the tiniest bit different than the RaW to reflect the differences in that character, chiefly, that the ikon healing will be compatible with the whole void healing mechanic.

The problem is that this isn't just any PF2e group. This is for Pathfinder Society. The GM's have to hold very strictly to rules as written, or an official ruling/clarification about rules as intended by proper sources at Paizo. If this were a home group then there are a couple points I would be willing to argue for some homebrew tweaks.

Turns out this is also covered under errata

Core Rulebook Errata, 1st print wrote:

Page 548: To make it clearer that elixir of life only works on living creatures due to the healing trait, change the first sentence to "Elixirs of life accelerate a living creature’s natural healing processes and immune system."

I think it's clear they have rules as intended for Elixir of Life is they don't work on undead. In my opinion, if they really want to make that clear, they need it to have the Vitality trait. Many times the kind of text they have there in the first sentence is more flavor for the effect rather than being authoritative on functionality.

Trying to search though the forums, this has been an issue of confusion and frustration for many years. Not just for skeletons, but damphir as well. Honestly, I with the devs would give a little grace in a couple places to give such characters some more flexibility in options and not impose extra punishment to have even basic options (e.g., needing Stitch Flesh to use Treat Wounds).

Elixirs of life do heal Undead

Can you confirm that as official rulings for Pathfinder Society? My GM's ruled at the table that the creature using it has to be alive (not undead). The text says "living creature":

Elixirs of life accelerate a living creature's natural healing processes and immune system. Upon drinking this elixir, you regain the listed number of Hit Points and gain an item bonus to saving throws against diseases and poisons for 10 minutes.

I thought the idea of playing a skeleton exemplar would be fun, especially for RP. However, the mechanics of trying to build this character is sending me on a frustrating goose chase where some traits (or the lack thereof) seem somewhat odd. In particular, healing for the character. Now, I get that playing undead characters (such as skeleton or damphir) is supposed to come with the challenge of dealing with void healing, but I'm realizing the options seem extremely limited. Please indulge my rant and consider the path I have been down:

The exemplar has 3 basic ikons that can work for healing:

-- Scar of the Survivor: the transcendence ability, No Scar But This, does a great deal of healing. Basically able to do the equivalent of a 1 action Heal spell at the rank for the character's level every other round. This amount of potent healing makes some sense that it would have the Vitality trait. Of course having that trait makes undead types unable to use it.

-- Barrow's Edge: the transcendence ability, Drink of My Foes, allows the exemplar to sort of drain of health from those they damage with their weapon. Unlike No Scar But This, Drink of My Foes requires the exemplar to successfully strike with the weapon and then can only heal half of the damage dealt. I start scratching my head at this point as to why the Vitality trait is on this ability. The healing is much more conditional, and the mechanics seem right along the line of something "vampiric." But it has the Vitality trait, so again, undead characters cannot use it.

-- Horn of Plenty: this one doesn't have the Vitality trait, so undead can use it just fine. But wait, the free Elixir of Life only works on living creatures (and BTW, automatons and poppets, although constructs, are still considered "living" beings in the rules of PF2 so they could use it just fine). OK, the Elixir of Life doesn't work, but at least undead characters could load up the Horn with Oil of Unlife... except Oil of Unlife is not a potion or elixir. (Why does it NOT have the Potion or Elixir trait?) I only found 1 elixir or potion with healing properties that undead could use at early levels: Soothing Tonic (Lesser) [lvl 2 elixir] gives fast healing 1 for 1 minute. The next available potions or elixirs are lvl 5 items.

Now, perhaps one might say, "Get a wand of Harm or Soothe," "There are feats that allow you to effectively cast Harm," "Train in medicine and use Treat Wounds." Very well, but in the mean time while I try to reach the necessary character levels, train in the extra required feats to use them (and in some cases the additional extra feats to use them as an undead), and necessary wealth needed for some of these items; I very likely will have to spend a significant chunk of gold on consumables that use up extra actions. (As mentioned before, even construct ancestries that would normally not be affected by these things suddenly get to be considered "living" and don't have to worry at all about these kinds of restrictions and barriers to being healed.)

I get that being an undead character is supposed to be a challenge in several ways. I'm not against needing to deal with the topsy turvy mechanics of Void Healing. What is making me pull my hair out is the woefully lacking options for undead characters to stay alive (so to say) long enough to achieve anything like the survivability almost any other ancestry or heritage can enjoy with far, far less use of resources at level 1.

I am looking for any official clarification on how the bonus hit points work from mythic tiers.

Bonus Hit Points: Whenever you gain a [mythic path] tier, you gain [number] bonus hit points. These hit points stack with themselves , and don't affect your overall Hit Dice or other statistics.

Specifically I am wondering how the bonus hit points work when using the Dual Path mythic feat to draw from different mythic paths. For example:

At ascension I take the Guardian path
1st tier: I take Dual Path mythic feat (Archmage for second path). I take Fast Healing Guardian ability.
2nd tier: I take Crafting Mastery Archmage ability.
3rd tier: I take Mythic Spellcasting Universal ability.

With that example, what are the bonus hit points I get at each tier? Do I get 5hp at all of them because my main path is Guardian? Do I get 5hp at 1st for taking a Guardian ability, 3hp at 2nd for Archmage ability, and 0hp at 3rd for Universal ability? Is there something else?

I realize I'm reopening this thread after 7 years. Still, the question of verbal/somatic components hangs in the air.

There are clearly no official rulings on this, and ultimately it comes to DM fiat (as everything does) at the table. I am facing the very real problem of a summoner being bound and gaged. Could they still summon their eidolon? Is the ritual so purely mental as they could summon while under the effects of Hold Person/Monster or otherwise paralyzed. Where does the power balance lie in your opinion?

Some feedback I've gotten in asking friends:

There should be some basic verbal or somatic component decided before hand. The specific verbal or somatic component is individual to each summoner and related to the nature of their eidolon.

Whether or not verbal and/or somatic components are needed, there should be some visual effect during the ritual (e.g., a portal begins to form and grow, a burning sigil appears on the ground where the eidolon will appear, or the glowing rune that appears on the summoner when their eidolon is summoned appears as soon as the ritual begins). This at least can signal to onlookers that something is happening and allow them to try interrupting, or prevent interruption of the ritual.

Is there any other option you think works best overall for balance?