Good afternoon. I did not find the rules for fighting with two weapons in two hands in RB. There are skills that allow you to benefit from two weapons, but I did not find a separate rule. Tell me how a two-weapon battle works.
Thank you in advance
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Good afternoon. I did not find the rules for fighting with two weapons in two hands in RB. There are skills that allow you to benefit from two weapons, but I did not find a separate rule. Tell me how a two-weapon battle works.
Thank you in advance
Yes there aren't skills that allow to benefit from two weapons. But we have some ways to get benefit from 2 weapons fighting:
PF2e strict regulates extra attacks and extra actions benefits this is reflected by how it deals with 2-weapons. The basic one without using any feats is the agile benefit.
Weapons with agile trait are weapons that allows to get a reduced MAP (Multiple Attack Penalty) from -5 in the second attack in the round to -4 and the third attack (and any subsequent attack) from -10 to -8. Increasing the chace to hit enemies (specially non-bosses enemies when the party is facing many enemies) but such weapons usually are limited to d6 base dices nond-deadly/fatal while non-agile weapons can get up to d8 deadly d8 weapons.
The most basic benefit of fight with 2-weapons is to have a stronger non-agile weapons in one hand and a lighter agile weapon in the other hand allowing to get the benefit of a stronger first attack with non-agile weapon followed by a smaller MAP benefit to make your subsequencial attacks using your secondary agile weapon.
This is specially good when playing with a fighter due its higher weapons proficiency or flurry rangers due their smaller MAP specially vs off-guard enemies that also provides a higher chance to hit with secondary attacks.
The another benefit that comes a bit later is to improve your weapon versatility using a wider number of property runes without need to use extra actions to swap weapons nor too much extra GPs cost to add additional fundamental runes in your secondary weapon (you can use the cheaper version of Doubling Rings to only share your fundamental runes and apply different property runes to the weapons). Basically allowing to have a wider damage types variety like for example having a silver rapier with flaming, frost and shocking runes and a cold iron short sword with corrosive, thundering, decaying runes to allow you to have a broader range of damage types do deal with different weakness.
In addition to the basic benefits above there are some class feats that some classes and archetypes get to deal with 2 weapons. The first one is the fighter feats that allows to do extra attacks with smaller MAP when using 2 weapons. These feats aren't fighter only with some other classes and archetypes geting them too but fighter is most obvious one. They differ from range like two-weapons fighting because they doesn't requires to use an action to Hunt Prey to get their benefits.
The first one is Double Slice that allows the character to make a second attack without MAP with your secondary weapon or with a reduced MAP (-2) if this weapon isn't agile. This feat also allows to sum the 2 successful Strikes damage to surpass resistances but is unable to trigger a weakness twice. It's one of most stronger lvl 1 fighter feats once that get 2 Strikes without MAP at level 1 is something pretty strong (because you not only can do 2 weapon dices but also the Str and any other extra damage twice without MAP).
Another feat that improves fighting with 2-weapons is Twin Parry that allows to improve your AC specially when using a weapon with Parry trait likes as you have risen a shield but without sacrifice your secondary weapon (but also without shield block reaciton) what is good as 3rd action if you are needing to protect yourself more than to Strike and your 3rd attack vs your currently enemies probably won't hit due their higher AC.
This Twin Parry also allows to get Twin Riposte reaction that is a powerful reaction that allows to Strike as a reaction opponents that miss the character frequently giving you an extra Strike out of your turn more easier to trigger than Attack of Oportunity Reactive Strikes also can be improved by Improved Twin Riposte allowing to use the reactions even in rounds that you not used Twin Parry action.
And in higher levels you get Two-Weapon Flurry to allow to give 2 Strikes with each weapon with just one action but only after you made the first one.
Also in such higher levels you can get stances like Graceful Poise to allow to make a 3rd Strike with the same MAP like it was your second Strike (MAP-5/-4) or Twinned Defense that is a stance that gives the Twin Parry benefit without use an action. Due they are stances you can benefit from both unless you also take Master of Many Styles.
Another option is to get Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype. This gives Double Slice and access to most of these feats like Twin Parry, Twin Riposte, Improved Twin Riposte, Two-Weapon Flurry and Twinned Defense without need to play as a fighter and also gives some exclusive two weapons feats like:
Dual Thrower that allows to get benefits of Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype feats with thrown weapons too.
Dual-Weapon Reload that allows to reload weapons without a free hand.
Flensing Slice that gives and extra persistent bleed damage if you hit both Strikes of your Double Slice and reduces any physical resistance of the enemy and keep it off-guard until the start of your next turn.
Dual-Weapon Blitz that's basically a Double Slice in movement without need to use an extra action.
And Dual Onslaught that basically grants that you will hit with at last one of your weapon when you use Double Slice unless you have critically missed the both attacks.
Rangers also get many benefits from some feats when fighting with 2 weapons but they usually requires that your are attacking your Hunted Pray what means that you usually needs to pay an action tax when you will attack an enemy.
The first feat is Twin Takedown that allows to Strike with each weapon using a single action. But usually this benefit is only relevant in your second round vs that enemy when you won't have to pay an action tax to Hunt Pray.
Second Sting a mid game feat that gives a failure effect granting one of your weapons damage bonuses/extra damages that doesn't roll a dice.
Impossible Flurry an end game feat that allows the flurry ranger to make 6 Strikes 2 with MAP-1 (one for each weapon) and 4 with MAP-2 when you are fighting with agile weapons. These Strikes doesn't sum damage to surpass resistances but also can trigger weakness multiple times.
Ranger also gets the dual parry and ripostes that fighers get.
Rogues get a small number of 2 weapons feats basically are:
Twin Feint that grants that enemy is off-guard vs your second weapon strike.
Twin Distraction that gives stupefied 1 until the end of your next turn to enemies that you hit both Twin Feint Strikes.
It have only one 2-weapons feats that I remember.
Dual Finisher that allows to use a finisher in 2 different enemies each one with a different weapon.
Ps.: Maybe have more feats that requires 2-weapons that I'm missing but this already may give an idea of how 2-weapons works in PF2e
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There are many great ideas here, but an alternative way to take advantage of doubling rings, two weapons, and defensive options is to add either a shield boss or shield spikes so that your shield becomes a second striking option. Unfortunately, neither of those additions have finesse or agile traits, but they do provide the benefit of alternate materials and different types of damage for those classes who can also maximize shields/ weapons in their second hand (e.g., fighters, champions, clerics).
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you can use the cheaper version of Doubling Rings to only share your fundamental runes and apply different property runes to the weapons
I'm thinking that this doesn't entirely work. You can't etch Property Runes onto a weapon that doesn't have any Potency Runes.
And it is quite a stretch to say that you are wielding both weapons during the Rune etching process in order to keep the duplicated fundamental runes applied. If the GM even allows duplicated or temporary fundamental runes to qualify for permanent Rune etching requirements.
You could save the money of the Striking Runes though.
Thats what I thought to, but I am not actually finding anything that says the item cannot be etched with a property rune despite not having a potency rune. The only thing defined within the etching process is that the item cannot accept it if it doesnt fulfill the requirement. (Such as a hammer and a rune that requires a slashing weapon)
It says a weapon can have runes equal to the rank of its potency rune, but that doesn't forbid the use of swapping a potency onto the item specifically so you can etch the property rune onto it before swapping the potency away again. It still a legal item with a dormant property rune until it somehow recieves a potency rune. All for a measly 7 gold and 2 days of extra crafting.
Strict RAW being a troll ruling goes both ways across the GM screen. The entire premise and purpose of this argument is so that the player can say to the GM, "Hey, Im'a save a boatload of money by exploiting a loophole."
If the Property runes are dormant because the Potency runes have been removed, a temporary Potency rune from Doubling Rings doesn't necessarily reactive the permanent Property runes.
If a GM is fine with allowing the Doubling Rings to reactivate Property runes, that is fine. As you mention, there is nothing in the rules that says that it doesn't.
If a GM is not fine with this and thinks it is an exploit, I think that is also valid. There is nothing that says that temporary Potency runes reactivate permanent Property runes either.
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Good afternoon. I did not find the rules for fighting with two weapons in two hands in RB. There are skills that allow you to benefit from two weapons, but I did not find a separate rule. Tell me how a two-weapon battle works.
Thank you in advance
Coming from PF1?
There are no separate "generic" rules for two-weapon fighting.
Barring specific class/archetype feats there is nothing special happening with two-weapon fighting. You hold/wield two weapons, and on your turn you have 3 actions. You can use an action to make a strike with one weapon.
Without class or or archetype feats, wielding two weapons is a pretty bad idea because it would be worse it pretty much every case compared to wielding a 2 handed weapon (except for the rare instance where the damage type of your weapon B/P/S might matter, and even then you could just draw another weapon).
Anyways, Yuri P's breakdown is pretty comprehensive.
I personally find the "benefits" of two weapon fighting without any feat support to be 100% not worth it. All the real benefits occur by selecting feats for the style.
As already mentioned here, the agile trait is the main way dual wielding works for those who don't specifically invest in dual wielding. You hold a high damage weapon in one hand and a weaker, agile weapon in the other. Attack once with the former (to get the most out of its better damage) then once or twice with the latter (to get the most out of the reduced MAP).
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Even with agile (unless you're a Flurry ranger) I don't think it's worth it to make a 3rd attack with MAP. You should definitely be working to find something better to do with your 3rd action.
Even with agile (unless you're a Flurry ranger) I don't think it's worth it to make a 3rd attack with MAP. You should definitely be working to find something better to do with your 3rd action.
Plenty of monsters have both a non-agile attack and an agile one, sometimes called the jaws and claws. And many of those monsters have a 2-action activity with three subordinate Strikes (i.e. Draconic Frenzy).
But on the player's side, there are occasions where an enemy's AC is so abysmally low that a third attack is worth it. For example, you reduce an enemy to zero HP, causing it to fall unconscious, inflicting a -4 status penalty and a -2 circumstance penalty to its AC. You know it has fast healing, so you Strike it twice more.
If a specific enemy under normal circumstances is worth attacking with a MAP of -4, then that same enemy with 4 less AC is probably also worth attacking with a MAP of -8.
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The benefits of two weapon fighting by default are minor but real. But if you're going to two weapon fight, you should really just get Double Slice. It's really good, and it is a 1st level class feat for fighters and a 2nd level class feat through the Dual Weapon Warrior Archetype for anyone else. Rangers can skip it since they have their own thing (though Double Slice can still provide a small benefit in certain situations) and rogues don't get to apply sneak attack multiple times... But literally anyone else who wants to make dual wielding melee weapons their "thing" should just get the feat.
Talking about the basic benefits of two weapon fighting is almost misleading because Double Slice is so easy to get you might as well treat it as the baseline for two weapon fighting, and then all those other things are gravy on top of it.
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There are many great ideas here, but an alternative way to take advantage of doubling rings, two weapons, and defensive options is to add either a shield boss or shield spikes so that your shield becomes a second striking option. Unfortunately, neither of those additions have finesse or agile traits, but they do provide the benefit of alternate materials and different types of damage for those classes who can also maximize shields/ weapons in their second hand (e.g., fighters, champions, clerics).
You still can use the shield as you primary weapon and an agile weapon for MAP. You won´t get a d8 weapon with an interesting trait (it will be d6) but if you don't bother to have bit smaller damage you get the advantage of use a shield.
I personally find the "benefits" of two weapon fighting without any feat support to be 100% not worth it. All the real benefits occur by selecting feats for the style.
Yes I agree. I just wanted to point that there are some general possible benefits using 2 (different) weapons but I agree that usually doesn't worth without class specific two-weapons feats.
But if someone wants to fight with 2-weapons there are options in most main martial classes and you also can get the Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype (but the only classes that I think that this archetype can be really useful are only inventors and maybe some exemplar builds not focused in use transcendence and throw focused barbarians).
Thats what I thought to, but I am not actually finding anything that says the item cannot be etched with a property rune despite not having a potency rune. The only thing defined within the etching process is that the item cannot accept it if it doesnt fulfill the requirement. (Such as a hammer and a rune that requires a slashing weapon)
It says a weapon can have runes equal to the rank of its potency rune, but that doesn't forbid the use of swapping a potency onto the item specifically so you can etch the property rune onto it before swapping the potency away again. It still a legal item with a dormant property rune until it somehow recieves a potency rune. All for a measly 7 gold and 2 days of extra crafting.
Strict RAW being a troll ruling goes both ways across the GM screen. The entire premise and purpose of this argument is so that the player can say to the GM, "Hey, Im'a save a boatload of money by exploiting a loophole."
If the Property runes are dormant because the Potency runes have been removed, a temporary Potency rune from Doubling Rings doesn't necessarily reactive the permanent Property runes.
If a GM is fine with allowing the Doubling Rings to reactivate Property runes, that is fine. As you mention, there is nothing in the rules that says that it doesn't.
If a GM is not fine with this and thinks it is an exploit, I think that is also valid. There is nothing that says that temporary Potency runes reactivate permanent Property runes either.
Yes, I considered this by taking advantage of the fact that the rule is not clear.
The way the rune etche text was written, it implies that you can transfer property runes to an item without fundamental runes, leaving them dormant, and since the text that Doubling Rings uses is that the "runes are replicated" it gives room to imply that you can energize the dormant runes of the second weapon with the effect of the first since the runes being replicated means that all of its effects would apply, including activating property runes.
As for the issue of economy, I already think it is quite relative, because in the end the mere fact of using 2 weapons is already more expensive than using only one weapon with proportionally few benefits, and Doubling Rings already exist to actually put a band-aid on this problem.
Ultimately, using dormant property runes being activated by a Doubling Rings would still be more expensive in practice than playing with ABP with property runes that would basically give the same benefit.