I've got a series of questions for folks on how it's commonly accepted that One Moment Till Glory (OMTG) functions. This is a strong ability but it feels like it's lacking some important context. Thank you for your time.
1) If OMTG gives someone a new save on a Poison or Disease, does it get worse if they fail? It feels like it would. (Had a brief thought of using this "offensively", but wouldn't function since it can only benefit "allies")
2) Can OMTG affect Curses? Curses say they can only be affected by things that specify they can target curses, but in this case, OMTG isn't targeting at all, the person is just getting a new saving throw.
3) Say someone fails against Slow, and are slowed 1 for 1 minute. They've got 7 rounds left on the duration when they roll OMTG. On a success or crit success, the result seems obvious that the duration would go down/end respectively. On a fail, does the timer reset to the full minute?
3a) And a crit fail makes them slowed 2 for 1 minute?
4) What constitutes an "ongoing negative effect"?
4a) Can OMTG clear fatigue caused by not sleeping?
4b) If an NPC is in a coma, can OMTG clear that?
4c) How does one determine the DC for effects/conditions that had no inherent DC, or that didn't allow for a save?
5) If someone has fully succumbed to Petrify, can they still benefit from OMTG? Kneejerk reaction says no because at that point they're an Object.
Thanks all for your help. Hopefully some context gets added in a future errata.
Things like this are probably why the class itself has the Rare trait. You will likely have to discuss these questions with the players at your table.
I pulled up the rules for Curses and couldn't come to a decision regarding question 2 based only on the rules text.
I can at least answer the curse sub-question.
Things that grant additional saving throws like OMTG can help reduce the effects of a curse, such as lowering a curse disease's stage, but they can never remove the curse. You need a specifically curse-breaking ability for the final removal.
This is a more common frustration than you might expect.
It seems like more than half the diseases players deal with in APs are curses, which is a bit of a kick in the nuts for Chirurgeons and other medically flavored PCs.
I can at least answer the curse sub-question.
Things that grant additional saving throws like OMTG can help reduce the effects of a curse, such as lowering a curse disease's stage, but they can never remove the curse. You need a specifically curse-breaking ability for the final removal.
This is a more common frustration than you might expect.
It seems like more than half the diseases players deal with in APs are curses, which is a bit of a kick in the nuts for Chirurgeons and other medically flavored PCs.
I believe you, but do you have any additional context for why that's the case? Based on my understanding of the ability the way OMTG would theoretically work would be they would make a new save as if they'd just been affected by it for the first time, functionally making it so they never had the curse at all in a way.
EDIT: Re-reading the ability, my above statement is false. It just says "attempt a new saving throw... even if that effect would not normally allow a new saving throw". So this makes sense that a Curse wouldn't be removeable.
I don't think this is meant to function against afflictions at all, So I will be answering in that context.
3, Durations do not extend, you just gain another chance to remove it. Could potentially 'upgrade' a failure into critical failure depending on how you read it.
4, As far as I know most things in game either define effects as being "part of the targets natural state or ongoing effect" Thats the main difference between Cleanse Affliction and Sound Body for example. Even Clear mind and Sure Footing all state. "This spell cannot counteract or supress conditions that are part of curses, diseases or the targets normal/natural state"
4a, If you only cleanse the condition but not the underlying cause, Then the condition will instantly come back.
4b, Same as above, if the coma is caused not by an affliction but lets say a spell or non-affliction alchemical item. Then it makes sense that anything that would let you retry the save would be able to clear it.
4c, Typically use a levelbasedDC or the SpellDC for a creature of that level.
5, No for two reasons. As correctly noted they are now an object. Secondly, the spell has ended and Petrified is now part of your natural state.
I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me but thats my take on it.
I appreciate your take.
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I've got a series of questions for folks on how it's commonly accepted that One Moment Till Glory (OMTG) functions. This is a strong ability but it feels like it's lacking some important context. Thank you for your time.
1) If OMTG gives someone a new save on a Poison or Disease, does it get worse if they fail? It feels like it would. (Had a brief thought of using this "offensively", but wouldn't function since it can only benefit "allies")
2) Can OMTG affect Curses? Curses say they can only be affected by things that specify they can target curses, but in this case, OMTG isn't targeting at all, the person is just getting a new saving throw.
3) Say someone fails against Slow, and are slowed 1 for 1 minute. They've got 7 rounds left on the duration when they roll OMTG. On a success or crit success, the result seems obvious that the duration would go down/end respectively. On a fail, does the timer reset to the full minute?
3a) And a crit fail makes them slowed 2 for 1 minute?
4) What constitutes an "ongoing negative effect"?
4a) Can OMTG clear fatigue caused by not sleeping?
4b) If an NPC is in a coma, can OMTG clear that?
4c) How does one determine the DC for effects/conditions that had no inherent DC, or that didn't allow for a save?
5) If someone has fully succumbed to Petrify, can they still benefit from OMTG? Kneejerk reaction says no because at that point they're an Object.
Thanks all for your help. Hopefully some context gets added in a future errata.
1) RAW yes. If you are rolling an "attempt a new saving throw" to an effect that can become worse and there aren't notes against this so you have to apply the effect of this new saving throw including those who will make it worse.
RAI no. There's no sense that an ability developed to help to recover to make a situation worse. This goes against the entire idea with exception that you are already in the worse effect possible where a new save is always benefic.2) Curses and other afflictions are "negative effects" so yes.
3) Duration doesn't reset. They are accounted from the moment where they start. Duration only "resets" (becomes the worse) if a new non-stackable effect is applied (where you uses the most recent and potent effect).
3a) Same awswer to question 1.
4) "An effect is the rules term for anything that occurs in the game world". Basically everything that do something bad is a negative effect. An "ongoing negative effect" is any effect that a char is suffering that harms this character. In the case of One Moment till Glory only effects that can be resisted by save that can get an recovery check (because you are "attempting a new saving throw" this implies that it only works with saving throws that was already attempted).
4a) By default no because lack of sleep doesn't have a check it's automatic. But if something that you was able to do a save to prevent the fatigue condition so yes.
4b) Depends. If this NPC is your ally and its "coma" was caused by an effect that put it in Unconscious condition with a saving throw, yes. But if this Unconscious was caused by a non-saving effect so no.
4c) You are "attempting a new saving throw". The DC already exists.
5) It's no clear because that are many savings (so talk with your GM how you will deal with such case) but IMO this char "attempt a new saving throw" of its last saving throw so you becomes Slower 2 in case of successful and returns to roll the check "at the end of each of its turns".
I don't think this is meant to function against afflictions at all, So I will be answering in that context.
Why? IMO this was made thinking in afflictions too.
3, Durations do not extend, you just gain another chance to remove it. Could potentially 'upgrade' a failure into critical failure depending on how you read it.
Agree.
4, As far as I know most things in game either define effects as being "part of the targets natural state or ongoing effect" Thats the main difference between Cleanse Affliction and Sound Body for example. Even Clear mind and Sure Footing all state. "This spell cannot counteract or supress conditions that are part of curses, diseases or the targets normal/natural state"
Effects are literally everything that have an mechanical effect:
An effect is the rules term for anything that occurs in the game world. Effects might have limited range, and you may need to designate targets or create areas for your effects. Areas include bursts from a single point, cones blasting out from you, emanations surrounding you or another creature, or straight lines.
Effects that last for a period of time list a duration. These can last a set increment of time, or can end if certain requirements are met. Many effects apply conditions, which measure advantages or impediments like being blinded, frightened, or invisible.
Anything you do in the game has an effect. Many of these outcomes are easy to adjudicate during the game. If you tell the GM that you draw your sword, no check is needed. Other times, the specific effect requires more detailed rules governing how your choice is resolved.
Many spells, magic items, and feats create specific effects, and your character will be subject to effects caused by monsters, hazards, the environment, and other characters.
Effects sometimes require checks, but not always. Casting a fly spell on yourself creates an effect that allows you to soar through the air, but casting the spell does not require a check. Conversely, using the Intimidate skill to Demoralize a foe does require a check, and your result on that check determines the effect's outcome.
4a, If you only cleanse the condition but not the underlying cause, Then the condition will instantly come back.
4b, Same as above, if the coma is caused not by an affliction but lets say a spell or non-affliction alchemical item. Then it makes sense that anything that would let you retry the save would be able to clear it.
One Moment till Glory tries to save again against the effect that caused the condition it isn't trying to make a recovery to the condition only.
4c, Typically use a levelbasedDC or the SpellDC for a creature of that level.
No because it's a new try to do a saving throw vs the original save. So once it was a save so it already have a DC.
5, No for two reasons. As correctly noted they are now an object. Secondly, the spell has ended and Petrified is now part of your natural state.
No because they are an effect not an object and the spell has ended yet the Petrified still a condition currently affecting so it still a valid target for One Moment till Glory "even if that effect would not normally allow a new saving throw".
I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me but thats my take on it.
It wasn't a bad way to deal with the thing but was based in some wrong premises.
Now that I think about it further, a character in a coma or with the Petrified condition are rather bad examples for an effect with the mental trait which specifically cannot affect objects or mindless creatures.
An individual in a Coma I don't believe would suddenly gain the "mindless" trait.
But yes, Petrified would, in my mind, end up not being able to be effected by OMTG since they become an object and are no longer a creature at that point...
Though this is something of an issue since Sure Footing has a target of "1 willing creature" and at 6th level says it can specifically cure petrified, as it's the replacement for Pre-Remaster Stone to Flesh.
I am just concerned about poisons and diseased. I like this ability but the way that poisons work or saves in general is a mixed bag.
So the issue isn't "What can OMTG target" because it targets all allies. The issue lies within the Mental Trait which cannot affect objects. Petrified states that you become an object. OMTG has the mental trait. So the petrified creature can never benefit from OMTG, Therefore it cannot ever gain a new save against the petrified condition trough OMTG.
Yes I realize that I probably could've pointed to the mental trait in my initial post and I honestly don't know why I didnt.
Yeah, this was pretty much my reading of it as well. Still makes Sure Footing feel weird with that context, but at least the object-mental clash makes sense.