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So, I am planning on running a Planescape campaign using Pathfinder 2e. Many of the character options that I would want to be available already exist in Pathfinder or have close enough analogues, such as the nephilim for aasimar and tieflings. Some are not available, being WotC intellectual property after all. These include the bariaur, the githyanki, the githzerai and the rogue modron. There is also the possibility of playing monster characters, but I will likely address that in another thread, as it is a more general topic. There's also the matter of psionics, if I decide that they should be separate from occult spellcasting. This might also require its own thread. At the very least I could convert some of the old psionic classes like the psychic warrior and the soulknife with occult spellcasting for those that were manifesters. There are also the various D&D deities that will be available for characters to worship.
To start with, I will determine attribute boosts for the heritages:
Bariaur: Strength, Wisdom
Githyanki: Dexterity, Constitution
Githzerai: Dexterity, Wisdom
Rogue Modron: Constitution, Intelligence
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Instead of getting started at ground zero with attribute boosts and then building each ancestry from the nothing, why don’t you use already existing ancestries that are relatively close and then reskin them as needed? If you do the same with classes and everything else, you’re leveraging the already existing material and can then focus on other things that cannot be as easily adapted. That would make it easier to get started more quickly, especially since there are others who have already started doing some of this conversion.
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That makes sense. Of course then the question is what heritages should I reskin for the heritages I want to add?
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Bariaur = centaur
Rogue modron = automaton or android
The other two I’m not sure about as it’s been a couple of editions since I have been familiar with them. Perhaps there’s some third party products you could use? Does anyone else have ideas?
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I support starting from existing models whenever possible, particularly as some ancestries do exist closely enough to work. I agree with steelhead that the centaur ancestry would cover your bariaur needs (they even have the same attribute boosts you're looking for), and if you wanted you could implement a bariaur heritage, using the Elfbane hobgoblin heritage as the model for their magic resistance (and you could have the extra resistance apply to divine magic rather than arcane magic).
In addition to what steelhead suggests for the rogue modron ancestry, I would consider the conrasu, who are aeons (the equivalent of modrons in Pathfinder) and have an inorganic appearance due to their living wood bodies (and also have Con+Wis+a free boost, which should align pretty closely with what you're looking for). Gith I think would be a bit more difficult to find a reskin for, as they're quite specific to D&D, but even so you could still mix and match existing ancestries, heritages, and feats that would work well for them. I'd probably implement the githzerai and githyanki as separate heritages to the same ancestry, and you could even take the lashunta ancestry from the Starfinder 2e playtest rules as inspiration for how to do divergent ancestry boosts as well.
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Another thing I have been thinking about is Alignment. Do I need it for a Planescape campaign? If so how far do I go in implementing it (since I would be using the remaster which has no alignment)? In 3e, various planes had effects on those of opposing alignments.
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The other option is converting it to affect those holy and unholy sanctifications.
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I mean, would it be hard to just import alignment from unrevised 2e?
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I am trying to think of any other character options I might need. Also I am considering potential character options tied to the Factions. Prestige Classes are not a thing in Pathfinder 2e, but Archetypes are. Also in 2e each faction got mechanical benefits just from being a member of the Faction, though they also have restrictions. I'll have to convert those over to Pathfinder, but should I tie them to character options, like a feat? After all, I do want to encourage membership in the Factions, but would it be punishing a character who elects not to join a Faction to not give them any benefits. Though, it would be pretty simple for them to just consider themselves Indeps which don't consider themselves a Faction anyway.
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I think alignment is too integral to Planescape to extract from the setting, though maybe okay from the PCs. The whole ring geography, the factions in Sigil, and most cultural elements are based on alignment. But like suggested above, it might be converted to a Holy/Unholy system, though I'd add an Axiomatic/Anarchic dichotomy too (and think more so upon reflection re: the Blood War). Then PCs can opt whether they want to participate in such cosmic conflict, much like they do in PF2/Golarion. So the default PC position would be "none" or "insignificant", rather than neutral (which in Planescape might be its own Santification!). Then I'd measure how much of an obstacle alignment-themed environments are meant to be and find some balance, i.e. even a non-aligned PC should suffer a bit in a hazardous to non-Evil (non-Unholy) region.
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An interesting question- would Moradin be the same as Torag in this campaign?
Obviously, converting every single deity that might be worshiped in this campaign is daunting. I'm not even sure where to begin.
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An interesting question- would Moradin be the same as Torag in this campaign?
Obviously, converting every single deity that might be worshiped in this campaign is daunting. I'm not even sure where to begin.
The beauty of Planescape is you don’t need to convert all the gods, or even bring them all into the campaign, as the deities are drawn from many different universes. Therefore, you could just have Golarion be one of those universes with some of their gods scattered among your Planescape locations.
This discussion is making me want to revisit a campaign across the planes of existence! Between Planescape and Eberron, I have some fond game memories that were driven by those settings.
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An interesting question- would Moradin be the same as Torag in this campaign?
Obviously, converting every single deity that might be worshiped in this campaign is daunting. I'm not even sure where to begin.
If I were you - i'd only convert what I need. So if a player wants to worship Moradin, convert him. If none of them do, and you don't want to include Moradin worshippers, don't bother.
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I suppose the same might apply to ancestries (does anybody else keep having to correct themselves from saying races?). Maybe I should see if anybody wants to play Githzerai or Githyanki first? I mean I am definitely going to have NPCs of those races, but that's the beauty of 2e monster design that they aren't built like PCs. Of course then the question is, what character options should I prioritize?
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I agree that, in general, you should just convert as needed. Identify some existing analogues and then focus on developing only that which absolutely needs it. The important things about Planescape are the politics, the portals, the philosophy, and the people.
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Decided to begin conversion work on the Desire and the Dead module by going over the generic npc statistics and seeing if I needed to convert them. Fortunately most of them are easily replaceable by existing Pathfinder statistics, but I will be creating my own stats for generic Dustmen and "Sly Berks."
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I have also created a writeup for Sigil: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ebNxu3HG49F3EHpusBiOxlZZdwcpYKcUv-8UXWN 76sI/edit?usp=sharing
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I don't know if it's still online, but years ago I'd printed out a list of Greyhawk deities for 3.X that listed their domains (and more). It's quite long, about the size a Golarion list would be. PF2's altered or subtracted many of the domains, but it'd lay a foundation since Greyhawk's the source of most if not all Planescape deities (among those that survived moving from 2nd to 3.X). Not sure how much Forgotten Realms influenced.
Pretty sure the list was on the Wizards website since it has their logo, though one likely has to dig into the archives if they haven't made a specific effort to erase such things. It's been years since I've visited there, but they'd had material dating back into 1st edition available, so maybe it persists.
That said, reskinning the Golarion deities works too. Reskinning worked for Rome.
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And yeah, converting creatures should be simple w/ PF2's charts, but be keen on how accurate PF2 levels/CRs are. Some Planescape stuff played loose w/ an already loose system (because one could).
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I am finding it a bit tricky to convert some npcs. Should an npc that is CR 1/2 in the (3.5 edition) adventure be level 0, or level-1? Of course looking at the encounter difficulty helps.
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I wonder if I should adhere to current lore regarding drow in Golarion (i.e. there aren't any) or not? Obviously there will be drow from other worlds.
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Maybe I should make a separate lore based thread somewhere? It might get a little more attention for those kinds of questions.
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I am finding it a bit tricky to convert some npcs. Should an npc that is CR 1/2 in the (3.5 edition) adventure be level 0, or level-1? Of course looking at the encounter difficulty helps.
I'd say level 0. I'd reserve the level -1 for CR 1/3 NPCs and creatures. If you have kobolds, you may have make up your own level -2 since they're CR 1/4...
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Yeah, but if I converted to Pathfinder 1e first, a creature that was CR 1/2 in 3e would be 1/3.
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That is, a character with classes that was CR 1/2 would be CR 1/3
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Yeah, I'd look at the battle's intended difficulty rather than a set norm so you balance at the group/narrative level rather than individual. So you might create two (maybe more?) translations per creature (and a lot of the humanoids in PF2 do have two types of peons for that). A generic, rigorous rule would break down as one gets into CR 1/6 creatures or classes that differed in power from each other or some of the bosses who'd become more legitimate threats in PF2. Also PF2's level 1 PCs are chunkier than ever in several comparisons.
And I'd look at what Paizo did with a lot of "PC class" NPCs, where most are not built using a player's chassis. They cast with similar power to a PC, but have unique, signature abilities, higher attack/lower damage, and more h.p./less AC (sometimes much more h.p./defensive abilities in the case of those similar to 6hp/level casters). NPCs also have less breadth in most ways, yet some will be able to perform in two different roles better than any PC can (like a caster w/ a Fighter's attack proficiency or maximum expertise in multiple skills). Lastly, PF2 NPCs seldom rely on synergy, tactics, or pre-buffs (unlike PCs do or tons of NPCs from previous editions did). Those numbers have been baked into their stats.
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I have been reskinning/modifying existing statistics when I can.
Decided to begin conversion work on the Desire and the Dead module by going over the generic npc statistics and seeing if I needed to convert them. Fortunately most of them are easily replaceable by existing Pathfinder statistics, but I will be creating my own stats for generic Dustmen and "Sly Berks."
Good to have some free Desire and Dead module adaptation out there for PF, Dungeon Master Zack. ;)
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So... work on this has stalled somewhat, but I am considering replacing an Allip with a (Weak) Shadow. Would that be too much for a first level party, even with some mitigating factors?
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So... work on this has stalled somewhat, but I am considering replacing an Allip with a (Weak) Shadow. Would that be too much for a first level party, even with some mitigating factors?
CR 3 makes for a solid boss (especially at 1st when resources and breadth are minimal), so mitigating factors matter a whole lot. If the party regularly travels with the Light Cantrip and use big weapons, Force Barrage, and spirit damage, then no big deal. But if they rely on Precision damage and other types the Shadow's immune to, then that could backfire in a big way if/when a Shadow Spawn arrives (perhaps blocking for its boss or focusing fire on the one Enfeebled so they die and both can Steal Shadow). Also matters if they have ranged attacks or Reactive Strike, as a flyer can do hit and run tactics, avoiding anybody who looks Readied (even if they can't really do that with Steal Shadow unless it's every other round, which works well with going in walls).
Which is to say, yeah, be wary. It's not a generic CR 3 bag of meat most any party can handle fine.
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Maybe it might be better to convert the Allip or find another creature that fits the bill.