I know that Change Shape on Beastkin has been asked about before, but I'm looking for opinions on this specific situation. I have a Beastkin Monk player. They want to take Dire Form, which gives their Hybrid Form the effect of Enlarge. So far so good.
They want to then also take Qi Form, which is another polymorph effect (assuming I allow it since its uncommon). They want to know if both of these work at the same time.
Beastkin says this about the forms: "A beastkin's hybrid form is their natural shape."
Based on that, I assume that while in hybrid form, they're not under the effect of a polymorph ability and thus should be able to use a polymorph spell on themselves. Trying to use Change Shape while Qi Form is up would conflict (as per Polymorph's rules). I'm not sure about if they try to use Qi Form while in Humanoid Form, which is a longstanding question about if Change Shape is ongoing or not (but its unlikely to be a frequent problem since this player almost never leaves hybrid form).
I'm less sure on how Dire Form factors into this since although its applying to the base hybrid form, its also a polymorph effect and thus it doesn't feel like it should "stack" with Qi Form. But at the same time, if they're always under a polymorph effect then they have to counteract Dire Form to Change Shape, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
So for the purposes of making this work, I'm thinking of ruling this way:
1. Qi Form works in Hybrid Form without issue since that's their base form.
2. Dire Form isn't going to count as an ongoing polymorph effect, so using Change Shape or Qi Form won't require a counteract (nor will enemy polymorph spells).
3. That said, Qi Form and Dire Form won't stack since while in Qi Form you're not actually in your Hybrid Form anymore (you polymorphed into something else).
Thoughts? There seems to be some edge cases in play here where RAW is unclear or clunky, so although I'm curious about RAW interpretations I'm also entirely willing to house rule this so that the player can do cool stuff without opening up stacking polymorph cheese.
Thanks.
I think that those rulings make sense. I think your point 3 is the best point, as they should not stack, for the reasons you gave.
I think it is a fair ruling that gives the player fun options and doesn't cause any balance issues.
It works with Qi Form and other polymorph effects just fine. Dire Form says "you gain the effects of enlarge." It's not actually the spell (or even a magical effect) and thus not a polymorph effect. You're simply a larger beastkin. It's really just a shorthand instruction for how to adjust the numbers.
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It works with Qi Form and other polymorph effects just fine. Dire Form says "you gain the effects of enlarge." It's not actually the spell (or even a magical effect) and thus not a polymorph effect.
I disagree.
An Enlarge effect can, and probably still should, be a Polymorph trait effect even if it is not a spell (or even a magical effect).
It is a bit unclear if a Polymorph effect must also be magical or not. The Polymorph trait doesn't appear to require it, and some alchemical effects have the Polymorph trait. However, the trait also says that all Strikes granted specifically by a Polymorph effect also have the Magical trait.
But that also seems to be a bit of a moot point. If a shape-changing ability is not magical, that does not mean that it does not have the Polymorph trait (see those alchemical items such as Energy Mutagen).
Also, the Beastkin Change Shape ability has both the Polymorph and Primal traits, and Primal includes the Magical trait. You can argue that since the hybrid form is listed as the default, then being in that form is not inherently a Polymorph effect. But don't expect that to be a universal ruling. That isn't consistent for many of these shapechanging ancestries, and it seems to be chosen arbitrarily. If it is considered to be a balance problem, then the GM is within bounds to prevent it from working with other Polymorph effects.
You can argue that since the hybrid form is listed as the default, then being in that form is not inherently a Polymorph effect. But don't expect that to be a universal ruling. That isn't consistent for many of these shapechanging ancestries, and it seems to be chosen arbitrarily. If it is considered to be a balance problem, then the GM is within bounds to prevent it from working with other Polymorph effects.
If a GM doesn't accept that a beastkin's natural form lacks the polymorph trait, then they end up with a situation in which the versatile heritage makes the character in question quasi-immune to every polymorph effect in the game. There's no way that was the intent of the developers.
Any GM who rules thusly should probably require an atonement ritual.
It works with Qi Form and other polymorph effects just fine. Dire Form says "you gain the effects of enlarge." It's not actually the spell (or even a magical effect) and thus not a polymorph effect.An Enlarge effect can, and probably still should, be a Polymorph trait effect even if it is not a spell (or even a magical effect).
This is really where the hiccup is. I think for the heritage to work ass intended you have to accept that hybrid form itself doesn't have you under a Polymorph effect while you're in it, because any other ruling there leads to some really bizarre outcomes.
So Hybrid form itself is the "natural form" and the PC isn't under any effects while in it. So the question is simply: does Dire Form change that?
If the answer is yes, then we get the same issues as if hybrid form is an always-on effect: anything that tries to polymorph you has to counteract Dire Form to do it. If the answer is no, that means there's no issue except that the player can't turn Dire Form off by any means except "change to humanoid form" because there is no effect to dismiss or not turn on.
Also, the Beastkin Change Shape ability has both the Polymorph and Primal traits, and Primal includes the Magical trait. You can argue that since the hybrid form is listed as the default, then being in that form is not inherently a Polymorph effect. But don't expect that to be a universal ruling. That isn't consistent for many of these shapechanging ancestries, and it seems to be chosen arbitrarily. If it is considered to be a balance problem, then the GM is within bounds to prevent it from working with other Polymorph effects.
That's kind of the whole thing, yeah. RAW I think it works simply because the other readings lead to significantly more problems.
I'm not sure I want to allow what is effectively two polymorph effects to stack in Dire Form & Qi Form (even if its not technically that), both because the rules normally disallow that and this just appears to be a loophole, but also because I'm not sure if I'm opening the door to some other interaction that I haven't thought of that would be far messier.
Great discussion, thanks folks!
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How open to discussion are your players? You could also probably smooth a lot of this over by approaching them, explaining, "Hey, this may technically allow someone to be under two Polymorph effects. I'm considering allowing it, but under the caveat that you guys don't go looking for other combinations to exploit this ruling with." That generally works at my table.
Oh, very! This came up because the player in question asked me what would happen with all this and I'm trying to figure out how to answer. :)
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You can argue that since the hybrid form is listed as the default, then being in that form is not inherently a Polymorph effect. But don't expect that to be a universal ruling. That isn't consistent for many of these shapechanging ancestries, and it seems to be chosen arbitrarily. If it is considered to be a balance problem, then the GM is within bounds to prevent it from working with other Polymorph effects.If a GM doesn't accept that a beastkin's natural form lacks the polymorph trait, then they end up with a situation in which the versatile heritage makes the character in question quasi-immune to every polymorph effect in the game. There's no way that was the intent of the developers.
The way I read it is that it is deliberate.
Beastkin, Tanuki and Yaoguai all have a Change Shape ability with the polymorph trait. But the trait is only on the action and the action is an instanteous permanent change. So the resulting form is not a polymorph it is another natural state. So further polymorph effects both positive and negative can apply without a check.
Yes this is an advatange as those characters are not shut out of other polymorph effects and still have a 1 action ability to try to shake off a negative polymorph effect. Which is nice but narrow enough I'm OK with it.
The beastkin Dire Form is only the effect not the actual spell. Dire Form is permanent/instantaneous not an ongoing effect so it falls into the same category as the hybrid forms.
The spell Enlarge or Animal Form would not. But that is not what we have here.
Aye, kitsune have had this snag for a long while now - if you try to claim that either form is considered "the polymorphed form" then you run into weird bits where being in "the polymorphed form" is this nearly get-out-of-poly-free card, which is almost certainly unintended regardless of what we consider the "true form" of a shapechanging ancestry/heritage is.
So the only way you avoid getting a near-poly-immune kitsune is by saying only the "action" of Change Shape is a polymorph effect. Sure, that means the kitsune can try and counteract any poly effect that doesn't shut out their ancestry abilities with one action, but that was still true even with the above problem, so that's not really the issue.
It's hard to say on the Dire Form issue, though. While being IN hybrid shape alone clearly shouldn't be considered a polymorph form, Enlarge's effects still have the Polymorph tag on them - it's not a tag just applied to Enlarge's Cast a Spell activity, it's a tag applied to its effects as well. But if we read it that way, any shapechanging ancestry that uses "the effect of pest form" (again, kitsune, yaoguai, etc.) now has the same issue as paragraph one where now they're just super hard to poly, willingly or not.
The reading that has the least amount of conflictions and snags within itself happens to be the most permissive one here, I think, with Gortle's reading? If you're afraid of it becoming a little cheesy, I don't think there's a problem with bringing said concern up with that player, just in case.
I'm happy enough with the Kitsune being the same as the others.
It's hard to say on the Dire Form issue, though. While being IN hybrid shape alone clearly shouldn't be considered a polymorph form, Enlarge's effects still have the Polymorph tag on them - it's not a tag just applied to Enlarge's Cast a Spell activity, it's a tag applied to its effects as well. But if we read it that way, any shapechanging ancestry that uses "the effect of pest form" (again, kitsune, yaoguai, etc.) now has the same issue as paragraph one where now they're just super hard to poly, willingly or not.
The reading that has the least amount of conflictions and snags within itself happens to be the most permissive one here, I think, with Gortle's reading? If you're afraid of it becoming a little cheesy, I don't think there's a problem with bringing said concern up with that player, just in case.
Yeah, that makes sense. Though one remaining question I have is that if you use Qi Form, are you still "in hybrid form"? You just polymorphed into something else.
So at that point, it's easy to say "you polymorphed into a new form, so Dire Form shuts off". There's no conflict there in terms of counteracts or issues, it's no different than changing into humanoid form and having it turn off.
That prevents it from stacking, which is the same basic outcome as if someone tried to cast Enlarge on you while in Qi Form.
That's what I'm leaning towards going with. So it all works and there's no "you're always under a polymorph effect" situations, but you can't stack the two of them together.
I would argue that the humanoid form is not a natural form, and continues to have the polymorph trait. Insofar as I can tell, you can only have one natural form and, for the beastkin, that's the hybrid form.
Kind of like how a tanuki or kitsune can polymorph into a humanoid; I don't think anyone would argue that humanoid is, or also is, their natural form.
I would say they can stack.
Dire Form is not an action itself. It just gives your Hybrid Form the effect of Enlarge, but nothing more. You are not casting a spell. You don't get the duration, range, targeting, Manipulate or Concentrate traits of the spell, so why would you get the Polymorph trait? It would not make any sense.
Now, the Change Shape action comes with the polymorph trait, but that counts only during the action as it has no duration. Your hybrid form or humanoid form are both natural forms and only the act of switching between them has the polymorph trait, not being in a form.
This means the change shape action will counteract polymorph effects, both beneficial or negative, but nothing more. So, Qi Form will be contested by the Change Shape action, but assuming Qi Form will not contest being in either hybrid or humanoid form.
You can definitely rule it that way. But what I'm looking at here is that Dire Form only functions while in Hybrid form. If you polymorph into something else (ie: Qi Form), you're no longer in Hybrid form.
That interpretation gets to the same place as "polymorph effects can't stack" except without the odd situations of trying to claim Hybrid form is some always-on polymorph and the problems that come with that. Instead it's a much simpler "you polymorphed into a different form, so you're not in Hybrid form, so Dire Form shuts off."
I like that better for my game's purposes, so I'm going to use that. The player is fine with it, and it's easy to implement. It's not the most RAW reading, but RAW here is a bunch of edge cases and missing clarifications, so I'm fine with that.
YMMV.
Well, why would you leave hybrid form if you enter Qi Form.
If e.g. a minotaur enters Qi form they wouldn't lose their horn attack, dark vision or size.
Therefore why would a beastkin lose the features of their ancestry? You would also take away their jaws unarmed attack? Dire form just adds another feature, I don't see the issue honestly.
Agreed.
If Qi Form doesn't take away ancestry features, I see no reason it would impact Dire Form.