So, this one has been bugging me for a while, and I cannot find a single thread attempting to decipher it.
The Treasure Vault codified a new term of "alchemical food" but never defined it. It mentions the use of the new lozenge and processed traits, but these are not definitional, and there are already "for sure" alch foods that lack these traits. So the presence of these traits can confirm an alch food, but a lack *cannot* deconfirm.
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To keep the matter brief, it seems the only way for an item to safely "be an alchemical food" is if it is printed in a book section labeled "alchemical food," like in that initial treasure vault book.
This royally sucks, and is kinda not okay, due to the items themselves not carrying this info. Some old items, like journeybread, are "presumed foods" by sites like Nethys, but I can find no textual reason it gets that categorization.
Now that we have Alchemist Feats like Numbing Spice Exhalation, and an entire Wandering Chef archetype built around this specific subgroup, this state of affairs is imo not okay.
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What rules would you use to define alchemical foods as a category? All comestibles that you swallow?
What items, including ones that existed before the category, do you think should be able to qualify as "food"?
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The book have a seperate section with only alchemical foods, they all have Alchemical and Consumable trait, All of them are things you eat or drink and have a food reference or pun in the name.
so i would not let all Elixir into that category even if the book list a few elixirs in the list.
its need to be something more then just "you drink or eat it"
so the best guidline is do the item have a clear reference to food or drink in its name (or description) is the closes definition we have.
but since some of the old items like jurneybread is reprinted in the book, it could be as simple as that list is all there is and nothing else.
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IMO, a good differentiation between an alchemical food item and an alchemical elixir is the alchemical food item is a food or beverage that is "enhanced" with alchemical additives like medicinal/vitamin gummies to provide additional benefits while an alchemical elixir is a consumable like cough syrup or a quinine draft that only exists for the benefit.
IMO, a good differentiation between an alchemical food item and an alchemical elixir is the alchemical food item is a food or beverage that is "enhanced" with alchemical additives like medicinal/vitamin gummies to provide additional benefits while an alchemical elixir is a consumable like cough syrup or a quinine draft that only exists for the benefit.
Ah, but that's the rub, as items in a ttrpg system only exist for their effects.
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The elixir that grants a flexible 1 hr save buff just happens to be flavored as a hot tea, so it gets to be a food.
But another save boosting elixir that was written function-first, like the antidote, is denied compatibility because it lacks enough fluff text that evokes comparisons to a beverage.
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In the end, it seems it's just based on the GM's vibes on what is "food enough" in it's description to be an "alchemical food."
This imo clashes with table play in a rather odd way, as previously, "flavor was free" and most of my items would gain an eclectic appearance and mechanically irrelevant flavor as I used them.
Now, it's actually "a nerf" if I describe my firefoot popcorn as a vial-drinkable concoction, and it's "cheating" if I describe any non-food elixirs as being too "chewable" or tea-like, etc.
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If yall want an edge case to adjudicate, there's the Capsaicin Tonic
Tonic as a word is ironically super muddied, as it both means beverage and medicine. The original fuzzy "healthy drink" ish word.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=903
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Simple answer for me, go to AoN and search ALchemical Food, you will have a list of all of them.
Do I think it should include all elixirs? Nope
Do you want to argue with your GM for more items? Maybe
Will they agree? Maybe, I don't know your GM
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I mean unless there's one I'm missing* you can tell by the name and description alone. A drakeheart elixr is clearly not a "food".
It should have a trait imo, but really it's not hard to work out.
*WRT respect to capcasin tonic it's not written as a food, unless you really want to drill into the fact it's called a tonic. And in that case, just ask your GM.
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Generally speaking it's name and description should invoke the thought of "Food" not "drug" or "potion". so a candy, coffee, bread, yeah, that would be "Food" and thus items based on them would be alchemical foods. but "Elixir" or "Serum" no, that is "drug" or "potion".
And yeah, there absolutely should be a trait for that.
I will agree with other posters, they've probably should have created an alchemical food trait, or even just a "food" trait (as alchemical already exists).
Then alchemical foods are those with both traits. Maybe in the future.
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I would use deduction.
Start with everything that has the Alchemical and Consumable traits. Remove anything that has a more specific item category such as Elixir or Drug as well as remove anything that is not consumed by eating or drinking it.
So a Missive Mint qualifies because it has the needed traits, doesn't have any more specific category, and is described as being used by being put in your mouth, even if it doesn't sound very nutritious.
Moonradish Soup would also qualify even though it does not show up in the list of Alchemical Foods on AoN.
Lastwall Soup doesn't qualify because it is categorized as an Elixir.
And Bookthief Brew doesn't qualify because while it has the right traits, it is not described as being used by eating it.
That does leave room for taking some alchemical items and reflavoring them (pun intended) as something that you eat so that they do qualify. Sneezing Powder for example could be converted into a Sneezing Cookie that instead of throwing at an enemy, you trick them into eating it.
There are many "confirmed food" items with the elixir trait. And even one that is elixir & mutagen, the Fury Cocktail item line. Again, I don't think there is a single "deconfirm" trait possible.
If I recall correctly, there was a single, likely accidental, omission of the elixir trait on an "drinkable" item. All others had reason to lack the elixir classification, such as due to being [processed] items.
Ah, yeah, AoN food section --> Traits: !elixir --> it's the Dragon Pearl tea that forgot the elixir trait; all other teas / beverages have the elixir trait. (or are drugs like alcohol)
I also need to object to the drug tag being a "deconfirm" as then even things like alcohol are denied "food" classification.
I can't even say [bomb] excludes food after they added that throwable durian bomb.
"a durian bomb is a fruit that's been alchemically modified for maximum revulsion." It's literally a fruit that's been soaked in alchemicals to become extra nasty. Its piercing dmg is due to the fruit hull being spiky, lol.
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Quick link to AoN's cateogry of alch foods:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?Category=6&Subcategory=92
NOTE that this list is definitely incomplete, and does NOT include legacy items like Dreamtime Tea. (and that obvious incompleteness is kinda the main reason for this post)
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When I wrote my Alchemical Items guide, I decided to go with a common sense approach. If it's a food item, and it's Alchemical, it counts as an Alchemical Food.
So, IMHO, Bravo's Brew is the first Alchemical Food (from Core Rulebook), as it it has the line "This Flask of foaming beer.
So, I count the following as Alchemical Foods (outside of Treasure Vault and the Tian Xia Character Guide.):
- All the Alchmical Tapas from The Mask & Mirror in Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar
- Boulderhead Bock
- Bravo's Brew
- Dark Pepper Powder
- Grindlegrub Steak
- Lastwall Soup
- Moon Radish Soup
- Saboteur's Friend
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There are many "confirmed food" items with the elixir trait.
Confirmed how, and by who?
Can you list an example of one also, please.
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There are many "confirmed food" items with the elixir trait.Confirmed how, and by who?
Can you list an example of one also, please.
Confirmed by appearing in an alchemical foods section, by... Paizo.
Fury Cocktail, as mentioned, or Rainbow Vinegar.
Hmm... Interesting.
So if the Elixir trait is also sometimes used on food, then it wouldn't be a good way of eliminating items. It would eliminate valid items.
Such as the Lastwall Soup from my own examples.
But that does leave us with only GM Fiat and adjudication to determine which Elixirs are food and which aren't.
Which isn't great.
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1. What makes the Animalistic Fury Cocktail acceptable as food, but the Bestial Mutagen not acceptable? (Edit: Or, Firefoot Popcorn acceptable, but Energy Mutagen not?) I think any reason besides “flavor text” has to address this satisfactorily.
I don't think it's reasonable to say "besides flavor text" when flavor text is the driving distinction here.
Like that may not be ideal but that's clearly how these items are defined in practice.
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It's not about "flavor text" per se, we're just looking for any sort of formula / flowchart / datapoint question that can be asked of any alch item to get a correct answer.
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And this thread has really helped me to form my own thoughts on the matter.
Because we cannot look at traits to deconfirm items, I think it's best to look at the item while ignoring all other categories or functions. (besides the alchemical trait)
This is how one can allow alcohol and the fury cocktail without stumbling over the elixir, drug, and mutagen traits.
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IMO, the only question to determine if something is a "food" is "is this supposed to be eaten?"
While this does remove the durian bomb, and brand it as a "former food that has been weaponized" this line for the "to be [food], or not to be [food]" question will get some disagreement.
Because yes, the line between "beverage" and "drinkable medicine" is imo an arbitrary distinction that doesn't really work. Even Paizo "canonized" that all alchemical drink/quaffables get the elixir (or ingested) tag, which removes the ability for anyone to try to draw a line between "(medicine) elixir" and "food."
IMO, bending over backward for the sake of *excluding* items, like drinkable medicines, is a bad idea, dare I say "the wrong approach." Yes, it seems dev unintended for a numbing tonic to be food, but that's what happens when the devs don't provide their own definition; we lack the ability to invent and apply tags, so the only question / procedure we can invent is: "is this a food, or not a food?" (does this function by being eaten, or by another method?).
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I think it's important to separate the idea of "GM ruling" which is a needed component of the game, as it's often not going to be black & white, and distinguish a ruling from what I'll call an "arbitrary method."
It's always true that the GM needs to make the call. It's not good if the GM doesn't even know how they are doing it, besides "vibes." Imo, the soul of every good ruling comes from honestly asking a number of binary questions, each of which actually matters for the answer.
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I will say in Codemagic's defense, If there are multiple alchemical NOT-FOOD items and that do the exact same thing as Alchemical food items, I would then hope that the GM would allow them to reflavor a not food item meant to be consumed as a food item. I would just make the player come up with a good Pathfinder food name for it, and then allow it as a rare exception.
It's always true that the GM needs to make the call. It's not good if the GM doesn't even know how they are doing it, besides "vibes." Imo, the soul of every good ruling comes from honestly asking a number of binary questions, each of which actually matters for the answer.
Hard disagree with this bit.
Some things are too complicated and there are too many "questions" that need to be asked that might lead to counter intuitive results in specific cases.
I really think people need to embrace and accept the "I know it when I see it" rulings. If as player you're not okay with some vibes based rulings, then I wouldn't want to GM for you (which is okay) and you probably wouldn't want me as a GM (which is also okay).
And I say the above as an engineer who has to deal with very picky customers which like to point to their spec documents and say "hey this doesn't match spec" and I have to argue with them that while it doesn't meet spec, it will actually work as opposed to rigorously applying their spec causes there to not be a financially viable solution.
I don't want to have the same sort of arguments outside of work, and so you're going to get vibes based answer in some cases. If you think I'm being inconsistent or want to argue for it, when can talk about it, but I'm not going through a 30 point check list to determine if something is alchemical food.
To me, "alchemical food" is the stuff that has shown up in the alchemical food section of books, plus anything that the GM gives permission to add. Yeah, we have some stuff that was released before "alchemical food" became a category that should be quick and easy requests for GM consideration, at least if the player cares about them.
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Because yes, the line between "beverage" and "drinkable medicine" is imo an arbitrary distinction that doesn't really work.
I mean I get where you're coming from but I also imagine you'd get some weird looks if you tried serving someone pepto-bismol when they asked for a drink.
To be clear, I expect every GM to have their own question or set of questions to define "food."
Something like, "could you order this at a tavern? Or only purchase this at an alchemist's shop?" is a fine question to use for one's own definition.
The point is again, not to avoid GM rulings. It's to find consistency.
Imo, thinking in terms of questions is a very helpful way to do that.
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Trip.H is right, this will be up to the GM what to include and RAW we can only use the list paiso provided.
it might even be RAI since they reprinted some old item on the food list and not some others, so they obviously looked back on old items when they made the list.
but since book space is a thing its also possible they had to cut some items to save space.
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I go back to what I said before, as a GM I'm going to go to AoN and search for alchemical food. Everything on that list is approved, no question.
Anything else would be reviewed on a case by case basis, and it's going to be a vibe check on my end.
If a GM has a question on a specific item and debating internally on how they should rule, we could help them. But outside of that, I don't see much point in writing out a bunch of things that not everyone will agree on.
Basically, I'm just floundering my attempt to emphasize that saying "it's a personal call" does not add to the discussion or provide insight to any future reader.
The moment we establish/agree that Paizo failed to define "food," we already know it's the GM's call.
Saying what reasons / questions matter to one's personal call (and perhaps why so) do helpfully contribute by prompting the reader to agree or disagree with those whys.
And this discussion will be archived on the searchable internet for who knows how long, so those searching for Paizo rules that don't exist can at least get here.
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Basically, I'm just floundering my attempt to emphasize that saying "it's a personal call" does not add to the discussion or provide insight to any future reader.
The moment we establish/agree that Paizo failed to define "food," we already know it's the GM's call.
Disagree, this is the rules forum.
If you want to discuss your house rule system for how to categorize and expand on the current lack of "robust rules" around alchemical foods this isn't the place to really do that.
There is a list of things that are alchemical foods because they're presented as such in a rule book.
Why weren't other things included? Unclear, there are potentially lots of reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean an item should be excluded, but it's a house rule to do otherwise.
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- Fury Cocktail and Bestial Mutagen, among other comparisons. To me, this illustrates there’s no mechanical divide between food and non-food, and so probably fine to just allow most elixirs.
TBH I get the opposite conclusion here. The fact that food gets its own subheading, we have an archetype that interacts exclusively with food, and that only certain items have food analogs, tells me that the distinction is meant to matter.
If the goal was to let Wandering Chefs make everything but flavored as food, the archetype could just say that.
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Wait, you don't eat soap?
Beer is just liquid bread, which is obviously food
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Wait, you don't eat soap?
You misspelled cilantro.