I have a question related to being a GM~. In regards to placing treasure after a random encounter (considering they pass the survival tracking check to trace back to where its lair was which they DID), is the amount of treasure from the chart supposed to be based on the parties’ current lv, or the CR of the creature they managed to take out? Since for my Wednesday KM group they managed to roll a random encounter several CR above their average party level and kind of clobber it since the creature oddly had no DR on it.
More specifically I wanted to add I wasn’t using the random table in the KM campaign itself but instead the general random encounter tables. Why? Cause the party I’m running essentially _needs_ harder encounters than what is being given in the module itself. Off the chart the only encounters I think _might_ pose a threat in the 1st module’s table are the Will-o-wisp, the Shambling Mound, and if I rolled 4 trolls on the d4 trolls.
So I have a group of lv2 (they levelled to 3 off this encounter) players manage to take down a CR7 Young Black Dragon. Yes you _did_ read that right. Basically they were on the western side of the forests that border the Hooktongue Slough and rolled a random encounter. So I used the ‘swamp’ table instead of the one from module 4. So my question is what should I use to judge how much treasure I should give them for such an encounter?
Also yes the dragon _did_ try and ambush them in the middle of the night, but when I rolled for its stealth it absolutely _bungled_ it rolling only a total of it was either 20 or 22 on its stealth check. In which both the druid _and more importantly_ the monk both manage to roll perception higher than its stealth check. Also fyi the monk is the only person in the party (there’s 5 total but one of them had to leave before their first round in this combat) that has natural darkvision. The rest of the party has low-light vision though.
so a number of things here..
as a DM you can give as little or as much treasure as you want.
If you want to use the Game mastering tables, a CR 7 encounter would give 1750gp, 2600gp or 3900 gp, depending on the XP track they are on (Slow med, fast)
Also, note, that in the black dragons listing, he gives triple - so triple those numbers.
Now, you are stating that your party is rolling over encounters, there must be a reason behind this.
things to consider.
4 level 2 20 point build characters is normally considered APL 2.
If you have more than 4 players, or you use more than a 20 point build, they they would have a higher APL.
If they are already exceeding WBL (which this encounter might cause), they would again have a higher equivalent APL. This encounter might also boost them above the level they currently should be in the adventure path.
In my experience, good players, well built characters, and just good thoughtful play can cause the party to be able to handle significant CR over their APL.
when all this is added up, it's not uncommon for my a group to be able to handle a CR 5 or 6 over APL.
Ways to mitigate this that are easy:
Use milestone leveling.
Max bad guy Hit points.
Add extra Mooks/minions until the encounter is a challenge, but don't give them any worthwhile trerasure.
Its water under the bridge, but it looks like you did not take all the factors into account. The dragon has a +16 bonus of stealth and a breath weapon that has a 60-foot range. If the ambush took place in the middle of the night most of the characters should have been sleeping. Perception rolls while sleeping have their DC increased by 10. There is also a +1 increase to the perception roll for every 10 feet. Unless the dragon came within 10 feet of the party the DC to spot the dragon should have taken range into account. That should have meant at least a +4 to the DC of the perception roll. So, the minimum DC (assuming the dragon rolled a 1) is 21 for those that are awake, and 31 for those that are asleep. Unless the druid and monk have a WIS of higher than 20 or some other bonus to perception their maximum bonus should be +9. Skills do not automatically fail or succeed on 1 or 20. That means it is impossible for them to have made the perception roll if they were sleeping.
Likewise with the tracking roll. The dragon flies and has a swim speed. The DC to track it to its lair should have been out of the reach of the characters unless they had some sort of magic to allow them to do so.
If the party is able to do this at 2nd level, there seems to be a serious imbalance with the party, and they probably already have too much treasure or abilities. If that is the case giving them more is only going to worsen the situation. That being not giving them any treasure would be the right decision.
I actually appreciate the information Mysterious Stranger. First time dming the system. All new players as well.
I did not know of the DC increasing by 1 for each 10 feet away as well. In that case the druid would have still seen them. Dragon was around 30 ft from the druid during the check base roll of 4 totalling 20 add 3 for 23. (The monk was around 80 ft away on the other side of their camp so he wouldn't have made it).
Druid has an 18 Wis (16 from PB +2 from racial) 2 ranks in Perception, has it as a CS, +2 RB on Perception... and there's an extra +1 on here from somewhere I have to research this... Not like it matters. Even without that her bonus is +11. She rolled a base of 16 totalling 27. And yes she had been up at the time, she and the Paladin were actively roleplaying out talking with each other late into the night. (Yes the same Paladin who had to leave a few minutes out of character later due to IRL their chickens escaping their coop, yes they live on a farm)
I wasn't thinking about the swim speed part for tracking I was just going off the track DC to follow tracks on firm ground which was 15 then due to it being a night with virtually no wind and that there's multiple ways for the party to have the 'scent' trait at their beck and call increase the DC by 10. So 25. The alchemist rolled a 26 (the alchemist and the hunter both have the same survival bonus somehow). If you have references as to how this DC would increase given the fact they have ready access to 'scent' I'm all ears!
Also it is not like the entire party is specifically crushing the combat encounters. No it is SPECIFICALLY the monk. The Chained Sohei Monk typically outputs around 3/5 to 3/4 of the parties' overall damage each encounter. That is not an exaggeration either. Then again previously I had made the encounter at the springs that is typically with 4 Giant Frogs (CR1) into 4 Goliath Frogs (CR3) and THAT encounter nearly caused a TPK.
JamesWTGames wrote:
Also it is not like the entire party is specifically crushing the combat encounters. No it is SPECIFICALLY the monk. The Chained Sohei Monk typically outputs around 3/5 to 3/4 of the parties' overall damage each encounter. That is not an exaggeration either. Then again previously I had made the encounter at the springs that is typically with 4 Giant Frogs (CR1) into 4 Goliath Frogs (CR3) and THAT encounter nearly caused a TPK.
Action economy is the key player here. A single dragon get only 1 round of actions vs a full party, but 8 frogs get 8 rounds of actions vs the party. if even half of those frogs were equivalent to any single party member, then the frogs have a distinct advantage.
Your monk is probably doing all that damage with his flurry of blows with any weapon ability, which is pretty nasty, and does put him on the higher end of combat damage.
although, I am curious as to what the Druids animal companion is doing.
I'm running a game with a monk and druid, and it's the animal companion that's wreaking havoc on my bad guys.
I want to also point out that King Maker is a really rough Adventure Path for a new GM and new players.
There are a lot of rules in PF1, and King Maker adds the complexity of the Kingdom Building rules, and it's also open sandbox.
Most of the other APs I have played/GMed have been more "linear" or "on the rails", and that helps keep the encounters more balanced with the party.
TxSam88 wrote: JamesWTGames wrote:
Also it is not like the entire party is specifically crushing the combat encounters. No it is SPECIFICALLY the monk. The Chained Sohei Monk typically outputs around 3/5 to 3/4 of the parties' overall damage each encounter. That is not an exaggeration either. Then again previously I had made the encounter at the springs that is typically with 4 Giant Frogs (CR1) into 4 Goliath Frogs (CR3) and THAT encounter nearly caused a TPK.
Action economy is the key player here. A single dragon get only 1 round of actions vs a full party, but 8 frogs get 8 rounds of actions vs the party. if even half of those frogs were equivalent to any single party member, then the frogs have a distinct advantage.
Your monk is probably doing all that damage with his flurry of blows with any weapon ability, which is pretty nasty, and does put him on the higher end of combat damage.
although, I am curious as to what the Druids animal companion is doing.
I'm running a game with a monk and druid, and it's the animal companion that's wreaking havoc on my bad guys. I didn't make it 8 frogs, I just turned the four CR1 frogs into CR3 frogs. Same action economy on the enemy side. As for the Druid, she's a Halcyon Druid she gets no animal companion. And the Hunter's Acom (a warcat of rull) was ironically the thing that did the killing blow on the dragon.
Also even though he's a Sohei with MoMS (which do stack as written) and thus doesn't get flurry of blows. No the reason for that is that he's spent his feats on getting up to Spirited Charge. Due to shenanigans the MW lance he is using is Large sized so on a charge he is doing oh 6d6 damage, and 10d6 on a crit.
The treasure thing is pretty clear. Assuming there's no reason it wouldn't have it (it was new to the area and driven from it's old lair and has less than normal), then the PCs should be able to find it if they find the lair (assuming it's made one). Finding the lair doesn't mean it isn't trapped or some of the items aren't hidden and need further finding.
As for tracking, that's a really good Survival check from the alchemist, so can't really fault that, but the likelihood is still in doubt. The party travels at half speed while tracking, and probably slower in the dark, and slower through woods. They need to make a new check every mile or when the DC would increase which could be every hour if it rained, or when they crossed water. Most black dragons live in swamps, which would be muddy or soft, so easier to find tracks (not an issue with Scent), but they also swim, so any pools would also do it. But it's very unlikely the dragon didn't take flight, and that makes it very unlikely, since dragons have broad territory in most cases.
But nothing to be done for it, if they found the lair, they should find the treasure. Roll randomly and maybe it'll be on the upper end, maybe it'll be on the lower end, or you can tweak it a little to make up for them not actually succeeding at the actual difficulty. Possibly it's only a temporary lair and it has only objects that are useful, like potions or wands, or scrolls. Possibly a map or clue that will be useful for the area, but not of real monetary value.
Treasure is more of an art than a science.
A dragon could easily be a dozen miles from its lair, so tracking it could be a real challenge. As for what is in the lair it could be very sparse; the dragon could have been forced to abandon its hoarde which is why it is where it is now.
My reccomendation for Kingmaker is to audit your characters' wealth every level and compare that with the wealth by level chart. That way you can adjust the stuff found.
Interesting advice Thorin. I also appreciate. Honestly part of it is more so if it would be wise for it to have a resource that is more so useful in BP than as an adventuring resource.
Part of it is that this party is EXCELLENT at single target damage and can eliminate a single creature each round with ease but the parties biggest damage dealer (the monk) happens to be one of the squishier members of the party (he also has terrible Will saves and as of yet there hasn't been an enemy in the AP to use them yet). Or at least AC wise since he wants to charge most of the time and that -2 AC penalty has been rather crucial at times, he has a rather good CMD.
But when it comes to multiple targets they can have issues.
But anyways one of the things that I was picturing was for this Black Dragon that it was recently booted from the roost maybe only having been in the area for a handful of years or at most maybe a decade or so trying to see if it was a good area to 'lay down its roots' so to speak. The area being at the end of marshland and thus expanding the area overtime. Considering that further south in the 2nd module of the AP is the enraged owlbear (which again probably won't be a challenge for this group) it was probably biding its time till it could dominate it and have a truly menacing grip on the area, but am I overthinking that?
If the dragon was chased out of its previous territory and only recently came to the area chances, are it does not have any significant treasure. If the story does not support the dragon having treasure it should not have it. This is one reason I have always disliked “Random” encounters. Something like a dragon should never be a random encounter. If you are going to use random encounters, they should mostly ordinary creatures that could inhabit the area, not unique creatures.
Fair enough. I only did so since honestly most of the story encounters for the first AP besides the bandits happen against solo beasts in the wilderness. That and my party was getting on me since they were exploring the hexes on the East side of the map the prior session and those don't have any pre-ordained events in them like most of the hexes do.
The module then in a section (right after clearing the bandits out of Oleg's in the AP) details about random encounters whilst exploring. I had completely missed this the first time. So I had them start rolling for it and made one of the party roll a d20 it is supposed to be a 5% chance but I doubled it meaning a 1 or 2 rolled an encounter. The Druid happened to be the one who rolled for them and she rolled a 1 and 2 for the first two hexes as they made their way back south. Note this was AFTER their second trip back to Oleg's after clearing out the Thorn River Camp.
The first encounter I had them roll off of their choice or the easier table from the AP or the more difficult random 'plains' table from the pfsrd. They chose the easier table and rolled a worg who was trying to sneak up on the hunter, similarly botched its stealth roll, virtually everyone EXCEPT the paladin saw it (paladin has only like a +2 perception). Monk rolled first in initiative and crit it before it could even move did nearly twice its hp in that one attack.
The entire party felt disappointed from that so they asked for the harder encounter. Which was a triceratops. Speaking of which we basically have made it canon in the version of Golarion we're playing in is a far more 'wild' of a location than the AP, so this encounter wasn't that implausible. But this they instead try and domesticate, which the monk (remember Sohei) takes point. I had him roll multiple Handle Animal and Ride checks over this and the following days in which he has yet to roll under a 22 on btw. I'm making him roll for it every day until they get a handful of Kingdom turns trying to fully settle it in. I gave them an estimate of 3-6 months overall as a starting metric.
So that's a bit of background there. Next encounter the roll would've been a giant slug but above that in the chart was the young black dragon, I didn't tell them the options but asked which they wanted and they said choose the one that I thought would be more memorable. So that is how that occured.
I usually create my own campaign instead of using published material. What I usually do is to have a couple of ideas for encounters worked out in advance that I can use when I need something. You don’t have to work out everything in advance but get the majority of the details down. Doing so allows you to tailor the encounter to the party. The big problem with random encounters is all parties have different strengths and weaknesses. What may be an easy encounter for on party may end with a TPK for another party of the same level.
My suggestion would be to look at the party and create a few generic encounters designed to challenge them. When you need to, plug those prepared encounters into the story as appropriate. To the players they will appear to be random encounters but in reality, they are not. This also gives you as the GM the ability to become familiar with the creature and its abilities.
Black Dragons live in swamps and its lair was nearby, from that I am assuming the encounter took place in a swamp. If that is the case the dragon should have been using the terrain to his advantage. Black Dragons have swamp stride which means they move through quicksand and bogs at normal speed. The dragon should have used that to his advantage and approached through terrain the players have difficulty with. You cannot charge through difficult terrain, so that would shut down the monk’s lance charge. It would also make the dragon difficult to approach by the rest of the party. The dragon could be attacking with its breath weapon without the party being able to attack back for at least a round. The dragon also flies so could easily take to the air and attack the spell caster or ranged combat characters first. After that all he has to do is to circle around blasting the other characters every 1 -4 rounds while their attacks don’t do much. And finally, if the dragon is taking too much damage he can simply fly away. Again, this is water under the bridge but keep this type of thing in mind in the next encounter.
Well it took place in a forest that bordered said swampland. Considering that there's an adult black dragon on the table on the Hooktongue Slough map... Forgive me if this is a messed perspective on this; but it labels them as solitary. So I envisioned this having been kicked from the next trying to eke out a niche for its self. Based off the dragon age chart I'd imagine it being like 18-21 years old so 'young'.
Also it DID attack with its breath weapon on the first turn. Targetting what I feel it'd originally think was the biggest threat which is the obvious rather large Druid in the party (the Druid is the tallest person in the party by a considerable margin btw). Though she also passed her Reflex save against the breath. AND.. the dragon also rolled low on the damage (it rolled three 1's XD). The players also didn't know this but the dragon rolled a 3 for its recharge.
I then had it fly up 60 feet up and landed on a tree branch to try and keep a better position. (again this was done quite impromptu in nature) Then after them trying to mull it over (partially since the Druid didn't want to harm it thinking it was a normal beast in the dark) combat maneuvers were brought up. Which I did reinform them how they worked and through that got the idea to bull rush the tree to destabilize the dragon. (It was out of the box thinking and I was down with it) and they rolled for it, happening to (again) score a crit, I did not realize it got a DC 10 fly check to avoid fall damage though. It falls next to the party and more or less everyone got a free hit on it.
I would have actually kept it in midair if it wasn't for the fact that the combat was outside. And I (currently) don't know where to find the rules of like them trying to knock it from the sky via ranged attacks. Since I feel the DC10 fly check after being hit feels a bit too generous given the system?
Again, nothing to be done, and this post isn't about tactics, but the treasure. Nothing can be done about low rolls (or high rolls for PCs). Those are just how it goes. But having a swamp-focused creature fighting out of terrain, having it go against overwhelming numbers, and the PCs being strong enough to bull rush down (or just somehow even shake) a 60-foot tall tree (which is really, really big; probably taller, since that's the height where the branches could still support a dragon), and having it fall for damage right at the feet of the party, and giving them all free hits when they already have massive action economy on it. It definitely sounds like a lowered CR than an actual encounter, and rewards should be calculated appropriately (again, not due to the good rolls for the party and bad rolls for the dragon).
It's like putting a massively overwhelming opponent in a scene, but knowing it's just supposed to scare them, so you have it approaching or roaring or basically not actually attacking for three rounds so the party can run, but they don'. They stupidly attack it and get lucky rolls because they have multiple rounds of no threat. They shouldn't get full benefits because you were pulling punches (as opposed to you pulling punches halfway because you realized you made the encounter too hard or they're getting steamrolled).
The treasure should not be full value and it should mostly be useful items of little treasure value; maps, building resources, a captured goblin or something that gives intel, etc.
JamesWTGames wrote: Interesting advice Thorin. I also appreciate. Honestly part of it is more so if it would be wise for it to have a resource that is more so useful in BP than as an adventuring resource.
If you give them coins or magic items it will be used as an adventuring resource. If you want it to be BP you will have to give it a BP value, not a GP value. Players will almost never convert GP to BP, but the reverse is not true.
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