I'm wanting to craft/purchase some forged metal tips for my character with a natural gore attack. The particular character has antlers like a stag if it matters. I'm visualizing 8 points (4 on either side depending on if you're from the Eastern or Western half of the U.S.), if it matters, though this could as easily apply to bull style horns, or lesser or greater numbers of tines.
I'm unsure how this should be priced. At the most basic side, I'd like to get the +1 atk for masterwork, possibly gain S&P damage instead of just piercing. The closest comparable item I can think of are catfolk claw blades, but I don't really want to change the gore from a natural attack. Maybe Ratfilk tailblade is a better comp.
I'd just like the ability to enchant the tines down the road, and for now maybe have some silver or cold iron tips for overcoming DR. But, before figuring out special materials costs, I need help determining a base cost for such an item. Recommendations please.
Sysryke wrote: I'm visualizing 8 points (4 on either side depending on if you're from the Eastern or Western half of the U.S.), What if we're in Europe?
Anyway I'd just run with catfolk claw blades. It seems like the easiest solution and I cannot see why antlers would be significantly stronger or weaker than claws in this regard.
Treat them as the Spiked Gauntlet-weapon, as it already is quite similar in idea.
Gauntlet, spiked (Simple, Light, Melee)
5 gp, 1d3 (S), 1d4 (M), Critical x2. Piercing. Special keyword: attached. 1lb weight.
I think trying to gain Slashing as well as Piercing would be a stretch, as a GM I would probably double the base price for such a custom-made item.
Anyway, I feel the Spiked Gauntlet as a base works fine, with the attached keyword. These sheaths would have to be fastened to the horns quite well to avoid slipping off in combat after goring someone or because you dip your head too much downward.
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Tusk blades are the closest I see. From animal gear category.
I would lean towards this pricing for changing damage type.
But otherwise, claw blades are probably the way to go for enhancement basis.
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote: Sysryke wrote: I'm visualizing 8 points (4 on either side depending on if you're from the Eastern or Western half of the U.S.), What if we're in Europe?
Anyway I'd just run with catfolk claw blades. It seems like the easiest solution and I cannot see why antlers would be significantly stronger or weaker than claws in this regard. I wasn't trying to exclude the rest of the gaming globe :p
I'm just not as familiar with hunting jargon in other parts of the world. In the U.S.A., when hunting make cervids (deer), the size of the stags rack is described differently in different regions. If you were to say "an 8 point buck" half the country counts all of the stag's tines and thinks if four points on each side. The other half of the country only counts the points on one antler and assumes symmetry, so they'd visualize a huge or older stag with 16 total tines. I live in the middle of the country, and we end up hearing it both ways. It gets a bit confusing.
Thanks for the post!
I grok do u wrote: Tusk blades are the closest I see. From animal gear category.
I would lean towards this pricing for changing damage type.
But otherwise, claw blades are probably the way to go for enhancement basis.
Mr. Grok, you get me :)
Thanks to the other respondents as well, it's good to have options. I think this fits best though, I just hadn't remembered the animal gear category. Works for horns, adds slashing, Paizo legit, enchantable for later, and still counts as a natural attack as best I can see. I may have to pay a bit more for multiple tines, especially since I'm looking to use various special materials, but with a 50 gp base, I've got room to maneuver.
Sysryke wrote: I may have to pay a bit more for multiple tines, especially since I'm looking to use various special materials, but with a 50 gp base, I've got room to maneuver. I feel inclined to comment here. I first thought this was probably a power gamer move, but then I thought nah, it has some cool flavor and might make for a neat custom character. But then you went and mentioned various special materials. That immediately made me think you want to use a different material on each tip, so that you always have the right special material to counter any DR you come across in the game, and bam, I went right back to this being a power gamer move.
If I were your GM, I'd have some extreme scrutiny on where you went with this build.
I would not consider myself to be a power gamer, any more than a fighter or ranger carrying an assortment of weapons to be. There's nothing wrong with being the "Always Be Prepared" boy scout.
You do understand my objective though. I am aware of where this could be open to abuse though, and plan on building in limitations for myself and with my GM to check this.
First, a hard limit on the number of tines (8). Since that's still pretty broad, we'll be making some kind of extra check or attack penalty to make using the correct tine a bit more challenging. I'm currently thinking the -4 to Atk. like when using a weapon to deal non-lethal damage. And/or some kind of a percentage roll to see if the right tine is included on a successful hit.
Second, I most likely won't be able to start with as many materials as I want to eventually aquire, though I will have some since we're starting at Lvl. 6. Whatever I can aquire is going to come with some hefty up charges for the exotic item and special materials. I'm not expecting a free ride here. I'll have to spend gold and time, plus many of my skill points are invested in crafting and knowledge skills to justify this build concept.
Third, even when I do have 8 unique tine materials, the attack is still sub-optimal. My gore attack is only 1d6. It is there mostly for flavor, and as a fallback for when/if I lose my sword. I have no feats to support the gore attack (except the feat I had to spend to get the attack). And very few (if any) of my spells or features will synergize with the gore. I just wanted to evoke the horned hunter imagery and have a little mechanical support to reflect his hunter/slayer expertise.
Sysryke wrote: I would not consider myself to be a power gamer, any more than a fighter or ranger carrying an assortment of weapons to be. I consider that borderline power gaming as well.
It's one thing to have a melee weapon and a ranged weapon, its another thing to have one of every damage type and every material....
As a GM, I would rule that all the tines are a single attack, and if you had all the different materials, and if you had the right one for that particular attack, would ignore 1 or 2 points of that DR, but not all the DR.
it sounds like you are trying to make it balanced, which I applaud you for, but IMO it falls into ROLL play and not ROLE play.
TxSam88 wrote: Sysryke wrote: I would not consider myself to be a power gamer, any more than a fighter or ranger carrying an assortment of weapons to be. I consider that borderline power gaming as well.
It's one thing to have a melee weapon and a ranged weapon, its another thing to have one of every damage type and every material....
As a GM, I would rule that all the tines are a single attack, and if you had all the different materials, and if you had the right one for that particular attack, would ignore 1 or 2 points of that DR, but not all the DR.
it sounds like you are trying to make it balanced, which I applaud you for, but IMO it falls into ROLL play and not ROLE play. Opinions can vary, I grant you. However, depending on how it's done, I don't think power gaming is inherently a dirty phrase. If a wizard has acquired the right feats, magic items, or actual spellbooks to have as much versatility as possible, why wouldn't/shouldn't a martial type do the same thing. Is the wizard who takes "elemental spell", or preps blast spells of every element power gaming? Considering popular opinion, couldn't you call even playing a full 9th level caster power gaming? This is a fantasy game, with supernatural elements. At some point, we're playing things that none of us could accomplish or be in real life, so aren't we all power gaming a bit?
As to the ROLL vs. ROLE, this is both, but ROLE is steering the ship. I always build concept first. I'm a firm believer that the mechanics of the game are there to reflect and support the storytelling/flavor. If my character is meant to be a trained monster hunter and slayer, who's studied exotic prey for most of his life, why wouldn't I apply that knowledge to carrying the right tools for the job?
I don't disagree with you about the actual mechanics of the attack. The numbers I was suggesting would reflect trying to more specifically aim the gore attack, similar to the optional "called shot" mechanics. If I just do a regular gore attack, then your option or the percentage roll would determine if the relevant material comes into play or not.
Sysryke wrote: If my character is meant to be a trained monster hunter and slayer, who's studied exotic prey for most of his life, why wouldn't I apply that knowledge to carrying the right tools for the job? these are the kinds of excuses power gamers use to justify their ROLL play choices.
As for the wizard prepping every element possible, yeah, that borders on it too.
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Different tables clearly have different ideas of what power-gaming and roll-play is.
What OP describes is considered completely normal at the three different D&D/Pathfinder tables I play with, reflecting a character that is preparing for different types of enemies based on experience. And hey, if people want to shuck money at their golf-bag of weapons, go right ahead.
It's also a nice plus for the players who invested in different types of weapons or spells to get the pay-off for it when a specific type of enemy appears. Recently in Pathfinder, our Fighter got to shine in a boss battle because he really wanted an adamantine sword and for months it hadn't mattered at all, but since the boss had a Shield Guardian golem, it mattered a whole lot and probably turned the tide in an otherwise very tough fight.
TxSam88 wrote: Sysryke wrote: If my character is meant to be a trained monster hunter and slayer, who's studied exotic prey for most of his life, why wouldn't I apply that knowledge to carrying the right tools for the job? these are the kinds of excuses power gamers use to justify their ROLL play choices.
As for the wizard prepping every element possible, yeah, that borders on it too.
I don't mind some debate and lively engagement, but this is treading dangerously close to "wrong/bad fun" talk.
I've been playing close to 20 years now, with all sorts of different players in store games, Con games, and home games. I've never been accused of being a power gamer, and I've played with the sorts who abuse system mastery to the detriment of the rest of the players. But, I also help my fellow players build characters, and trying to be really good at one or two facets of the game, even the "best" at something, has never hurt a player or a story at any of my tables.
Pathfinder is a system that encourages specialization. This is my characters speciality. I'm not ridiculously hard to hit, my saves are decent/average, I won't be our highest DPS, my attack bonus won't even be super competitive. And that's all just combat focus. I'm not inherently the best face, or scout, or magic user, healer, etc. I will try and decently contribute to several of those other tasks in order to be a well rounded member of my party, but I'm focusing character resources and roleplay into being the monster knowledge guy, and doing what I can to have a better than even chance of insuring that when I do hit, the damage actually goes through. If that's power gaming to you, we have very different understandings of the term. I won't tell you how to play in your groups, kindly give me the same courtesy.
Faily wrote: Different tables clearly have different ideas of what power-gaming and roll-play is.
What OP describes is considered completely normal at the three different D&D/Pathfinder tables I play with, reflecting a character that is preparing for different types of enemies based on experience. And hey, if people want to shuck money at their golf-bag of weapons, go right ahead.
It's also a nice plus for the players who invested in different types of weapons or spells to get the pay-off for it when a specific type of enemy appears. Recently in Pathfinder, our Fighter got to shine in a boss battle because he really wanted an adamantine sword and for months it hadn't mattered at all, but since the boss had a Shield Guardian golem, it mattered a whole lot and probably turned the tide in an otherwise very tough fight.
Thank you!
@TxSam88, I'm sorry if I read too much into your posts. I was feeling a bit attacked, and so, went on defense. I do generally enjoy your contributions on these threads, even if we aren't on the same page here.
Sysryke wrote: Thank you!
@TxSam88, I'm sorry if I read too much into your posts. I was feeling a bit attacked, and so, went on defense. I do generally enjoy your contributions on these threads, even if we aren't on the same page here. No offense intended, no offense taken.
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