Are hobgoblins and bugbears still goblinoids in Pathfinder Remaster?

[Aenigma]

Before the Remaster, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, and barghests were considered relatives. However, in Pathfinder Remaster, it seems that barghests are no longer classified as goblinoids. While the terms goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, and barghest originate from real word mythology rather than being creations of Wizards of the Coast, I always believed that grouping them together as goblinoids was a decision made by Wizards of the Coast.

My main question is, are hobgoblins and bugbears still considered part of the goblinoids?

Additionally, according to Classic Monsters Revisited, hobgoblins were originally created from goblins. The book states that enemies of the elves enhances goblins, increasing their size, physical strength, and intelligence, thus creating hobgoblins. As for bugbears, the book does not provide a definitive origin but mentions that the first bugbears were born from goblins parents. Are these two theories still considered canon in Pathfinder Remaster?

[keftiu]

I think barghests being related to goblins is an OGL-ism.

[Perpdepog]

Hobgoblin origins are still the same; they were still created Uruk-Hai style by the Cantorian Spring. They still have feats that reference the spring, such as Cantorian Reinforcement.

I'm not sure about bugbears. I don't think PF2E has done much with bugbears, either before or after the Remaster.

[James Jacobs]

The association of barghests with goblins is indeed from D&D, and so when we remastered them, we needed to change that. Going back to original mythological roots and lore for barghests is what we decided upon.

But goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are still all "goblinoid" creatures (see the first line of the flavor text for the bugbear on page 47 of Monster Core, or the fact that the words "goblin" and "hobgoblin" both have the word "goblin" in them, or that all three look somewhat similar); there's just not a rules-facing term like "Goblinoid" to apply to them. They do all speak Goblin, for what that's worth.

[Aenigma]

Well, perhaps making goblins and hobgoblins relatives is not Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property. Maybe Tolkien introduced this concept first? I'm not sure if he ever used the word hobgoblin in his books, though.

But regarding bugbears... wasn't making them related to goblins an original idea of Wizards of the Coast? In the real world myth, they have nothing to do with goblins, right?

Also, did Paizo create the term goblinoid?

[Virellius]

James Jacobs wrote:

The association of barghests with goblins is indeed from D&D, and so when we remastered them, we needed to change that. Going back to original mythological roots and lore for barghests is what we decided upon.

But goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are still all "goblinoid" creatures (see the first line of the flavor text for the bugbear on page 47 of Monster Core, or the fact that the words "goblin" and "hobgoblin" both have the word "goblin" in them, or that all three look somewhat similar); there's just not a rules-facing term like "Goblinoid" to apply to them. They do all speak Goblin, for what that's worth.

The Goblin Hero Gods are still barghests though aren't they? Is there a reason that was able to be kept in?

[James Jacobs]

Aenigma wrote:

Also, did Paizo create the term goblinoid?

Nope.

[James Jacobs]

Virellius wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

The association of barghests with goblins is indeed from D&D, and so when we remastered them, we needed to change that. Going back to original mythological roots and lore for barghests is what we decided upon.

But goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears are still all "goblinoid" creatures (see the first line of the flavor text for the bugbear on page 47 of Monster Core, or the fact that the words "goblin" and "hobgoblin" both have the word "goblin" in them, or that all three look somewhat similar); there's just not a rules-facing term like "Goblinoid" to apply to them. They do all speak Goblin, for what that's worth.

The Goblin Hero Gods are still barghests though aren't they? Is there a reason that was able to be kept in?

That's a question for Luis and the Lore team.

[zimmerwald1915]

Aenigma wrote:

I'm not sure if he ever used the word hobgoblin in his books, though.

Not that it matters at all, but he did. Once. In The Hobbit.

[Aenigma]

Oh, so Tolkien was the one who made hobgoblins a type of goblin after all? It seems this wasn't a creation of Wizards of the Coast. And thus, it is entirely okay for Paizo to make hobgoblins related to goblins.

[Kavlor]

Aenigma wrote:

Oh, so Tolkien was the one who made hobgoblins a type of goblin after all? It seems this wasn't a creation of Wizards of the Coast. And thus, it is entirely okay for Paizo to make hobgoblins related to goblins.

There is a funny detail connected with this. The thing is that the word "goblin" as well as the prefix "hob" existed in the English language before. However, Tolkien made one unique mistake that determined the entire appearance of the hobgoblins. The thing is that the prefix "hob" in English means the fact that this creature is smaller than normal. So Tolkien literally created his main creation "hobbits". However, in the case of "hobgoblin" Tolkien made a mistake by saying that hobgoblins are taller than ordinary goblins, although in his letters he noted that it should be the other way around. And thus, in all fantasy, hobgoblins in their modern form were formed as taller relatives of goblins.

[James Jacobs]

The word "hobgoblin" is, like the word "goblin," a real-world term that predates Paizo, WotC, and Tolkien.

It's as free for us to use in our game as the word "dragon," "wolf" or "game."

Tolkien's influence here IS it appears why hobgoblins in D&D have traditionally been taller than goblins. Gygax took a LOT of inspiration from previous writers—it's why D&D elves and dwarves and hobgoblins and ghasts and thieves and necromancers and much, much more are the way they are.