I think most NPCs should have a passing familiarity with magic, but an understanding of how a specific class works should be exceedingly rare. Like "understanding if you stop the Summoner, you stop the Eidolon" should be like "understanding that the Witch's familiar is the source of your curse."Ehm... but "understanding that the Witch's familiar is the source of your curse" is completely obvious without any magic knowledge. The moment it growls and you immediately feel bad, you want to swat it. Do you want summoner-eidolon thing to be this obvious?
I mean, the Summoner literally has a class feature to put a glowing mark on both the Summoner and the Eidolon.
The class itself wants it to be obvious.
If anything it's more obvious than Witch, because a familiar can look an awful lot like an ordinary creature or a less dangerous familiar, such as a Wizard's familiar. Those are historically common in Golarian and arcane magic is relatively well known.
It'd be pretty hard for common folk to tell what kind of familiar this is at a glance. Someone with training at identifying magic users probably can, but a more ordinary person is going to see a cat and might realize its a familiar, but that's about it.
Literally anyone can see a big glowing symbol on two entities and figure out that they're connected somehow from that.
I think most NPCs should have a passing familiarity with magic, but an understanding of how a specific class works should be exceedingly rare. Like "understanding if you stop the Summoner, you stop the Eidolon" should be like "understanding that the Witch's familiar is the source of your curse."Ehm... but "understanding that the Witch's familiar is the source of your curse" is completely obvious without any magic knowledge. The moment it growls and you immediately feel bad, you want to swat it. Do you want summoner-eidolon thing to be this obvious?I mean, the Summoner literally has a class feature to put a glowing mark on both the Summoner and the Eidolon.
The class itself wants it to be obvious.
If anything it's more obvious than Witch, because a familiar can look an awful lot like an ordinary creature or a less dangerous familiar, such as a Wizard's familiar. Those are historically common in Golarian and arcane magic is relatively well known.
It'd be pretty hard for common folk to tell what kind of familiar this is at a glance. Someone with training at identifying magic users probably can, but a more ordinary person is going to see a cat and might realize its a familiar, but that's about it.
Literally anyone can see a big glowing symbol on two entities and figure out that they're connected somehow from that.
Summoner is obvious, but there are often higher threats in a group than the summoner. Summoner is a middle threat character in my experience. Above say a damage dealing cleric, investigator, or alchemist, but lower than a fighter or rogue or a caster blasting off powerful AOE. Their damage adds up in the aggregate, but it's more bunches of hits from different sources then the heavy crits of a fighter or a barb or rogue or magus.
Completely different sub-topic because the attack one is kind of shifting into general GMing strats.
Summoner builds for roles in the group.
How would we go about two types of summoners?
Summoner as the party main healer.
Summoner as the party melee control / tank.
-------- As Control Tank ------------
I'm not sure the class is built well, out of the box, for either. But I see both get attempted. 2 of the summoners I've seen in play tried to be the group tank using Brutal plant.
I was a believer in this, but the lack of a reaction makes me wonder how it can 'control' enemy options. In the game's I've played it failed in the first because of the things I've noted about hyper-focused GMs always going for casters. The second is an ongoing campaign and the GM has largely ignored the caster who also rarely uses spells (mostly only melees with a reach weapon).
-------- As Healer ------------
I've seen mention that there's room in the class to go for healing options. I'm doubtful on this as it seems like it requires giving up class feats to take a few archetypes, but if it can be done I'd be curious.
I've not seen anyone try to play it.
-------- As Flanking DPS with light area support ------------
This seems the natural role for the summoner. Flank with the eidolon and toss out cantrips with the caster, saving the extremely limited spell slots for crisis saves.
-------- As a Ranged martial / caster ------------
Folks seem to suggest there isn't a viable path for this one as the caster eidolons don't perform. I need to look over the list again and see if a ranged martial eidolon is present.
-------- As frontal melee DPS ------------
This is where I think a lot of summoners that try to be controller / tanks actually end up. Like a lower DPS Barbarian. Trying to run in and be direct, not thinking about flanking to help allies. Just trying to be a direct damage martial. It seems a popular but sub-optimal strat to me because in my mind anyone who is NOT controlling / locking down enemies should be setting up flanking or using the flanking the control martial has set up for them.
This is kind of... playing the eidolon like the stereotype of what I hear DnD martials are - just walk in and them spam MAP attacks until one side or the other is done for.
-------- So ------------
All that said, any thoughts on where the summoner best performs, where it can perform, and how to build it out to handle one of the trickier roles?
All that said, any thoughts on where the summoner best performs, where it can perform, and how to build it out to handle one of the trickier roles?
Well, as a pseduo-hybrid generalist, the main routine for Summoner is to be sure to use MAP every turn, while making the most out of their wave casting.
The "easiest" ~high-potency(?) playstyle is for SMN to cast one big buff, debuff, or even dmg over time spell turn 1, then mix in things like focus spells or archetype actions. Remember that SMN spell DC lags, which leans their spell preference away from any spell that invokes it. They similarly do not like low impact 1A or Reaction spells, as they don't have the slots to spare.
By nature of not even having the lower R slots, it's easier for wave casters like SMN to "script" their per-fight slot spend than normal spellcasters.
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For the Eidolon, it's important to remember that the lower one's damage is, the more appealing options like Trip / Grapple are, so spending MAP every turn can mean using those non-dmg maneuvers, especially if the PC is not putting their budget into Eidolon dmg.
And the way Act Together works means that the SMN gets a single 2A action per turn, and two different 1A actions. So SMN has the same per turn usage of 2A activities, but has (at least) double the need for good 1A actions.
While there are some decent 1A things the SMN can do without archetyping, IMO it's hard to avoid just how potent going outside the class can be on SMN due to their bonus action and lower specialist potency.
Which archetypes can work is rather restrictive due to how the SMN is split btwn the two of them, but squeezing in an archetype for some evergreen action like Fresh Produce or daily alch items is much better on SMN than it is on most other classes.
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The only real SMN-specific build decision I see as a big fork in the road is the eidolon-spellcasting feat line.
IMO, the possibilities added by the cantrip feat make it very good on basically all builds. Giving the Eidolon the option for 2A non-MAP damage, plus another cantrip slot for defense/utility is just a very good gain for the feat spend. But going deeper into that feat line for slot spells seem a lot harder to justify on a class that really wants every class feat it can get.
Completely different sub-topic because the attack one is kind of shifting into general GMing strats.
Summoner builds for roles in the group.
How would we go about two types of summoners?
-------- As Control Tank ------------
I'm not sure the class is built well, out of the box, for either. But I see both get attempted. 2 of the summoners I've seen in play tried to be the group tank using Brutal plant.
I was a believer in this, but the lack of a reaction makes me wonder how it can 'control' enemy options. In the game's I've played it failed in the first because of the things I've noted about hyper-focused GMs always going for casters. The second is an ongoing campaign and the GM has largely ignored the caster who also rarely uses spells (mostly only melees with a reach weapon).
Not the best at it, but if your GM lets you use the old version of Knockdown via Weighty Impact then you can have some impact. Get Eidolon's Opportunity, Hulking Size, and Weighty Impact. Land a strike and use Knockdown, no trip check required. When they get up, take the Reactive Strike and make them waste actions.
I don't usually see people take Towering Size because Huge all the time can lead to problems, but Evolution Surge gets there if you want it now and then.
The Summoner will want to be able to throw up control spells like walls to split the battlefield up. The combination can do work.
-------- As Healer ------------I've seen mention that there's room in the class to go for healing options. I'm doubtful on this as it seems like it requires giving up class feats to take a few archetypes, but if it can be done I'd be curious.
I've not seen anyone try to play it.
Had a player in Ruby Phoenix do this, no Free Archetype. It's not Cleric, but it can deliver significant recovery at high level. Low level it would be tough.
Medic is a must-take. Doctors Visitation is solid. Everything else is skill feats and skill boosts. Medicine (obviously), Battle Medicine (probably background), Assurance is nice since this is a hard class to get a ton of WIS and "I will never fail a key heal" matters when your healing is limited (you can always go for the higher DC if you think you can hit it).
Godless Healing is a nice pick here so you can heal yourself (and thus your Eidlon) significantly more often. You don't need to use Skilled Partner to get Godless Healing onto your Eidolon, but if you really want to it does mean even more Battle Medicine for yourself since your Eidlon is a separate target.
Spell wise, he used Regenerate on himself and Moment of Renewal for the big heals. This doesn't have the sustain of a healing Cleric and an ally that can do things like Champion Reactions or Stoneskin helps a LOT, but he did better than you probably think, and that was without FA. With it things become easier since you can pick up something like Oracle archetype to get castings of Heal and also Nudge the Scales spam (or Life Link and Regenerate on yourself).
-------- As Flanking DPS with light area support ------------
This seems the natural role for the summoner. Flank with the eidolon and toss out cantrips with the caster, saving the extremely limited spell slots for crisis saves.
Yeah this is an easy fit for the class.
-------- As a Ranged martial / caster ------------
Folks seem to suggest there isn't a viable path for this one as the caster eidolons don't perform. I need to look over the list again and see if a ranged martial eidolon is present.
Caster Eidolons suck due to poor action economy sharing of spells. Ranged wise, there's no base ranged attack and Ranged Combatant is d4, 30', propulsive. Not typically worth it IMO.
-------- As frontal melee DPS ------------
This is where I think a lot of summoners that try to be controller / tanks actually end up. Like a lower DPS Barbarian. Trying to run in and be direct, not thinking about flanking to help allies. Just trying to be a direct damage martial. It seems a popular but sub-optimal strat to me because in my mind anyone who is NOT controlling / locking down enemies should be setting up flanking or using the flanking the control martial has set up for them.
This is kind of... playing the eidolon like the stereotype of what I hear DnD martials are - just walk in and them spam MAP attacks until one side or the other is done for.
I'm not sure where the assumption that someone wouldn't use the Eidolon to set up flank and such is coming from. Summoner players seem just as likely in my experience to do that (or not) than any other character.
Running in and swinging is an easy thing for an Eidolon to do, but it's an easy thing for anyone to do. The class gives some pretty good options for other things, like Weighty Impact.
The only real SMN-specific build decision I see as a big fork in the road is the eidolon-spellcasting feat line.IMO, the possibilities added by the cantrip feat make it very good on basically all builds....
I completely skipped thinking about that feat to give the Eidolon some cantrips.
Would those be better on defense and 'weird'?
Like getting shield, and some oddball quirks. Then your Eidolon's melee strat could be 'do something martial' plus cast shield or glass shield (tradition depending)?
They're innate spells so it seems like spells that have a save are going to be less successful as your eidolon doesn't have great charisma (even Demon and Fey only hit 16).
If you did give your Eidolon Shield or Glass Shield - it now has a reaction. I assume that if both the Caster and the Eidolon had Shield on - only one of them could use a reaction each turn?
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The Summoner is a very versatile class, trying to tie it to one role is a waste of its potential. I've personally played my Summoners as main healer + ranged damage dealer (it works wonders, unlike what the d4 may suggest) + offtank + skill monkey. The Summoner can really perform a lot of things, there's no point in specializing.
The summoner has a built in class feature that requires the summoner and eidolon to have a clearly visible mark on each that shows they are tied together. This is pretty easy for almost any creature to figure out they are somehow tied together and that killing the caster guy in light armor is much easier than killing the strange, otherworldly eidolon.If the enemy is intelligent and knowledgeable. But a wolf etc. understands the sigil the exact same way the wolf understands matching shirts on two people. I.e. not at all.
I don't really have a problem with a DM going after the soft summoner over the eidolon. Though it's often not a great idea in a party with more dangerous members. Summoner is very often not the most dangerous PC in a party.Arcady's example seems like not good GMing to me. Metagaming. Hurts in the suspension of disbelief, making the game a bit less fun (at least, to me). I wouldn't even target the mage with minions. But when you start talking 'lieutenant' enemies or villains - and especially villains who have fought these adventurers or similar adventurers before - yeah that's when the GM should feel free to use optimal tactics. Ming the Merciless knows what's up, but random castle guard doesn't.
But that's me. I get that many players may want that SWAT team vs. SWAT team type challenge. So for them, by all means 'play on' with the mage-ganking wolves.
That example sounds extreme. I would definitely not act like the enemy knows the casters are sleeping in the tent just because.
I've as a DM tried to have enemies go after the back rank only to have them end up doing worse for having done so. Trying to bypass very dangerous martials to try to take out the casters first is a strategy that often leads to the PC martials ripping them up even more easily as the enemy opens themselves up to reactive strikes and easy flanking.
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To give more details about what the Summoner can accomplish:
Damage dealer
That's really the easiest role to cover with a Summoner. Just cast a cantrip with the Summoner and Strike once or twice with the Eidolon and you're doing fine damage, on par with good damage dealers like Fighters, Barbarians and Rogues.
Summoner damage is composite. It's ideal to avoid resistances, exploit weaknesses, it's both ranged and melee, spells and Strikes, it's really versatile.
Off tank
The Summoner is no tank. It has martial hp but you can't raise the Eidolon AC beyond average, you have absolutely no mean to increase the Eidolon survivability as classic feats like Armor Proficiency or Shields don't work so you can't do anything to go beyond average. But you also have the Summoner, increasing damage taken by AoE effects and sometimes getting attacked itself with its inferior defenses. And then the big drawback that if you ever go down the Eidolon unmanifests. Overall, the Summoner can't tank sh*t. But it's a good off tank, it can help with tanking as long as it doesn't put too much pressure on it.
Skill monkey
Between the 2 attributes array and the ability to Aid yourself with your best skills, the Summoner is a rather good skill monkey. And if you build for it, grabbing extra proficiency increases or feats to Aid, it becomes one of the top skill monkeys in the game.
Secondary healer
The Summoner has the excellent ability of being able to 2-action Heal/Soothe and also keep a bit of damage output with the Eidolon. It is one of the best secondary healer in the game thanks to that. Still, you need to choose your tradition accordingly.
AoE damage dealer
With the proper tradition, you can get access to good AoE spells like Fireball or Chain Lightning, which makes an AoE damage dealer out of your Summoner.
Mobility
A specific section about mobility as Evolution Surge gives you access rather early to at will swim/climb/fly/speed bonus. A very nice and useful ability.
Scout
One of the special abilities of the Summoner: as you can Unmanifest your Eidolon when sh*t hits the fan, you can use it as a scout with extreme effectiveness. But you need to build for it, obviously.
Controller
Mostly available only to the Plant Summoner. But it's a rather common build so I feel I have to speak about it. For other types of Eidolon, it's only available at rather high level with the proper feats and it doesn't have the impact of the Plant build.
I think I haven't forgotten anything. Overall, the Summoner plays ideally in Westmarches/PFS games where you'll have to fill multiple roles depending on sessions. In a fixed party, its versatility is less important but it can still help in a lot of areas which can prove useful in a party where every character is super specialized.