Hello, I have questions about sidestep feat.
Trigger The attack roll for a Strike targeting you fails or critically fails
You deftly step aside and gently redirect an attack. You redirect the triggering attack to a creature of your choice that is adjacent to you and within the attack's reach or maximum range. The attacker rerolls the Strike’s attack roll against the new target.
1/ When the attacker rerolls the Strike’s attack roll against the new target, is it at the same MAP ?
2/ For the trigger, if the creature fails because it fails for a flat check by example with dazzled condition ?
Thanks for your future answer.
1) Rerolls are same MAP. MAP only increases if you are making another attack not when you are rerolling the same attack.
2) No. Flat checks isn't the same of a Strike/attack roll check. The trigger is pretty clear "The attack roll for a Strike targeting you fails or critically fails". So it doesn't includes any flat checks that happens before the Strike roll.
Thematically is abstracted that you miss due your fail to target and lose your action, probably attacking the air.
Mechanically you fail in a flat check "you don’t affect the target" and you lose you action/activity (and its resources) without execute its check. There's no check result, the result never happened because you lose your action/activity.
I know this is strange, but PF2e mechanics was never designed to be full realistic they are made focused primary in make the things simple and balanced, the realistic part comes after this and many times it needs to be abstracted.
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Thematically is abstracted that you miss due your fail to target and lose your action, probably attacking the air.
Mechanically you fail in a flat check "you don’t affect the target" and you lose you action/activity (and its resources) without execute its check. There's no check result, the result never happened because you lose your action/activity.
I know this is strange, but PF2e mechanics was never designed to be full realistic they are made focused primary in make the things simple and balanced, the realistic part comes after this and many times it needs to be abstracted.
See, Thats where I think our view of what things say diverge and there is no RAW or obvious RAI to go by, Because in my eyes you would still roll the attack roll if it was relevant to do so, vast majority of the time it isn't going to be but incase of say attacks with failure effects. like Splash damage, Firearms Missfiring as a result of a failure, or as in this case where reactions make it relevant.
The only thing RAW actually states is "When you target a creature that’s concealed from you, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check before you roll to determine your effect. If you fail, you don’t affect the target."
Its not like its saying that the effect doesn't happen or that it is disrupted, Just that the effect does not affect the target. The only thing that is 100% surely RAW is that the target is not subject to the resulting effect regardless of degree of success.
Good summary.
Just to throw another way at ruling this in there.
For me, you used an attack action, so MAP will definitely increment even if you failed the flat check. MAP increase is tied to spending an action with the Attack trait -- everything after spending that action is irrelevant.
Sidestep wouldn't go off, because it never triggered. You never got far enough in the proces to roll the attack -- "the attack roll for an attack targeting you" never failed, it wasn't rolled. So you still have your reaction.
That's my understanding too. If a character uses Strike against someone with concealment and they fail the flat check, then they have still used Strike - which is an attack action and progresses MAP.
Making an attack roll is not what progresses MAP. Just look at Escape.
And that is before considering Sidestep. For sidestep, if the attack fails because of a miss chance, then the attack roll is not attempted and does not succeed or fail. Since it does not fail, sidestep is not triggered. The Rogue does not use their reaction, and the enemy does not reroll anything against a secondary target adjacent to the Rogue.
I run it the same way as Yuri does.
Here is how I see the Dazzled/Otherwise concealed sequence working:
Step 1: Declaration of Intent: I want to swing at the enemy.
Step 2: Flat Check.
Is the Flat Check passed: Step 3, Strike. The turn continues normally.
Is the Flat Check failed: No Strike is ever made. The check comes before the Strike. If no Strike is made, then there is no MAP. Losing the action is already a very heavy cost. There is no need to penalize on top of that.
Now, if you make the characters roll for something that no matter what they roll will miss, then, yes, MAP would go up. But, why would you? IMO, every time the player rolls the dice there needs to be a chance of either success or failure. In this case, the failure happens automatically. Why have a roll happen when the result is already known? The only possible outcome is that the situation becomes worse.
I want my players' dice rolls to matter. Making them roll when everyone knows that nothing can come of it, that the roll does not matter 99 percent of the time, is not fun, and to me, penalizing on top of that makes it worse. So, in my games, Concealed Flat Check failure is just loss of the action, or actions if the intended action was something like a Power Attack or targeted spell. I feel that's enough of a cost.
But I apply the MAP and any resources loss in case of failure in flat check. I just don't apply the any non-aoe effect to target because the failure in the flat check doesn't affect the target but the effect still exists it just cannot affect the target.
A concealed creature is in mist, within dim light, or amid something else that obscures sight but isn’t a physical barrier. When you target a creature that’s concealed from you, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check before you roll to determine your effect. If you fail, you don’t affect the target. The concealed condition doesn’t change which of the main categories of detection apply. A creature in a light fog bank is still observed even though it’s concealed.
* The bold is mine
So I still apply any effect that still affects you and all others creatures. Just the target that isn't affected.
So if a magus for exemple uses an Expansive Spellstrike. The Strike effect doesn't affect the target but the AoE and use of spellslot/focus if applicable happens normally.
The only exception that I make is for splash bombs. I simple consider a failure in the flat check like a critical failure for splash damage because you are not affecting the target at all and these bombs requires a target being affected to know if they will splash.
Another thing is that concealed affects everything and everyone. You can miss even a heal effect if it target a concealed target.