
Jina langu |
Sorry I think I posted this in the wrong place initially. I've done days or research and written/copy/pasted thousands of words, but this is still not clear. Our current struggles are like this...
1> A familiar cannot Strike. Got it. This appears to be different than "cannot Attack". Strike seems to reference the melee attack normally innate to creatures. We totally understand that familiars are not those same creatures and a badger familiar is not the same as a badger animal. When evaluating whether a familiar can do a certain thing, it there a restriction on things that have the Attack trait? It seems like no, only things that actually say "Strike"? I don't think I've seen anything with a Strike trait, only the basic action Strike, which has the Attack trait, hence our confusion. So if using Spell Delivery, the familiar could deliver a touch spell with the Attack trait, right?
2a> When using Spell Delivery, we are unclear if the master uses an action to Command the familiar, or if that is sort of baked into the normal casting cost of the spell when using Spell Delivery. If the master casts a 2-action touch spell using Spell Delivery, does the master then ALSO spend one action commanding the delivery (and now is out of actions) or is the command part bundled in and costs nothing?
2b> Follow up question: it also seems unclear whether the familiar's touch of the target is bundled into the ability. Can it use its two actions to move twice and the touch part is bundled in, or does it only get to move once because if it does not have its second action available to touch the target, the spell will not be delivered?
3> It's our understanding that a familiar cannot normally use actions with the Manipulate trait, unless it has the Manual Dexterity ability. Not sure if this applies to Spell Delivery or not. If the master uses Spell Delivery to deliver a touch spell with the Manipulate trait, does the familiar need to have Manual Dexterity to do so? That seems a bit onerous without knowing the rationale (maybe only the master needs Manipulate?) but we want to make the right RAW ruling (or RAI if RAW is still unclear to everyone).
We could almost bundle this entire question into one scenario if we find the right spell. The master casts Gouging Claw to use with Spell Delivery. It's a 2-action cantrip with both the Attack and Manipulate traits. Can a familiar deliver a spell with the Attack trait despite its lack of Strikes? (We think probably?) Can it deliver a spell with the Manipulate trait if the familiar does not have Manual Dexterity? Does the master still have an action left, or did they have to use it to command the familiar to deliver the spell? And finally, can the familiar move twice and still touch the target, or is touching the target always a 1-action cost of its two actions?
Thank you so much for reading all that and for your kind and patient responses. We mean well, we're just not too good at PF2e yet.

Finoan |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |

1) Correct, the limitation is only on Strike action itself. Which would also prevent effectively using anything that has Strike as a subordinate action. There aren't very many of those that aren't gained by feats though, so it is a bit hard to come up with an example of an Activity that a Familiar couldn't do because of the limitation on Strike. But if somehow the Familiar managed to get the Sudden Charge activity, they couldn't really use it.
What it doesn't prevent is other attack actions. They may not be very good at Trip, but you might need to have them use Escape sometimes. And if you ever give them Spellcasting, it is necessary for them to be able to use spell attack rolls if they have a 'Defense: AC' spell given to them (they use their master's casting stats as normal).
2) It is a bit unclear. I have seen people arguing it several ways. Primarily either: everything is included and it is just the spellcasting actions to cast the spell with and then the Familiar runs off and touches the target, or: the command needs to be done separately as a 3rd action after a 2-action spell. I haven't heard of the possible ruling of only allowing the Familiar to use one action on moving and has to use the other action doing the touch for the spell.
I don't like that third option. Spellcasters don't have to spend an extra action on a touch range spell to touch their target. It is part of the spellcasting. So neither should Familiars be charged that action cost either.
Personally I run it that Spell Delivery has its command included in the action cost of the spell being cast. That makes it approximately equivalent to the feat Reach Spell. It doesn't cost a feat, but costs a Familiar ability instead. It also doesn't cost an action immediately when used - it instead costs an action the next round to move your familiar out of danger and back to your space. So the action cost is still pretty equivalent.
3) There are some unofficial subcategories of Manipulate actions that a Familiar may be allowed to do without dexterous limbs. Because there are ways for characters to get limbs or limb-like things that are not capable of the full range of Manipulate actions that are normally available (Skillful Tresses for example). That is entirely up to the GM to allow on a case-by-case basis though.
However, if a specific ability says that something works, then it should be allowed to work.
So since Spell Delivery says that the Familiar can touch the target to deliver the spell, then they can.
As another example, a Familiar has no listed bulk carrying capacity. Because they don't have a Strength attribute of their own. But Toolbearer says that they can wear and carry tools - so they can. Even if the GM rules that they can carry nothing else.

YuriP |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |

Sorry I think I posted this in the wrong place initially. I've done days or research and written/copy/pasted thousands of words, but this is still not clear. Our current struggles are like this...
1> A familiar cannot Strike. Got it. This appears to be different than "cannot Attack". Strike seems to reference the melee attack normally innate to creatures. We totally understand that familiars are not those same creatures and a badger familiar is not the same as a badger animal. When evaluating whether a familiar can do a certain thing, it there a restriction on things that have the Attack trait? It seems like no, only things that actually say "Strike"? I don't think I've seen anything with a Strike trait, only the basic action Strike, which has the Attack trait, hence our confusion. So if using Spell Delivery, the familiar could deliver a touch spell with the Attack trait, right?
Yes. Also because the Spell Delivery is not your familiar Casting a Spell but it being used by the caster as its hands.
2a> When using Spell Delivery, we are unclear if the master uses an action to Command the familiar, or if that is sort of baked into the normal casting cost of the spell when using Spell Delivery. If the master casts a 2-action touch spell using Spell Delivery, does the master then ALSO spend one action commanding the delivery (and now is out of actions) or is the command part bundled in and costs nothing?
Let us read the Spell Delivery but with some line breaks to help the understand:
Ability Type Master
If your familiar is in your space,
you can cast a spell with a range of touch,
transfer its power to your familiar,
and command the familiar to deliver the spell. If you do, the familiar uses its 2 actions for the round to move to a target of your choice and touch that target.
If it doesn't reach the target to touch it this turn, the spell has no effect.
So the conditions and actions are:
1. Your familiar needs to be in your space2. You Cast a Spell that the range is touch using its normal number of actions (notice that in most cases this limits it up to 2-actions spell)
3. Instead of make an imediate effect the spell power is now transferred to your familiar.
4. You Command your familiar to to move (Stride/Fly/Swim/Whatever it can do to move) to closer to a target and it will touch that target and then the spell effect will be applied.
2b> Follow up question: it also seems unclear whether the familiar's touch of the target is bundled into the ability. Can it use its two actions to move twice and the touch part is bundled in, or does it only get to move once because if it does not have its second action available to touch the target, the spell will not be delivered?
That part is most unclear. The ability doesn't specifies so you will have to talk with your GM to decide. Some may consider that it can move only one action (using some movement action like Stride/Step/Fly...) and touch with another (using an Interact action?) others will allow to use up to 2-actions for movement and touch for free.
I as GM probably would use the 2-actions to move + a free touch interpretation because the first one doesn't explain how this touch action would work nor what traits it have) and due its action cost being too high and the risk is bigger than simply use a spellshape to increase the range (your familiar is now closer to an enemy and during all its actions it was moving risking to trigger movement reactions). But again it's unclear, is up to your GM to decide.
3> It's our understanding that a familiar cannot normally use actions with the Manipulate trait, unless it has the Manual Dexterity ability. Not sure if this applies to Spell Delivery or not. If the master uses Spell Delivery to deliver a touch spell with the Manipulate trait, does the familiar need to have Manual Dexterity to do so? That seems a bit onerous without knowing the rationale...
I agree, that's the why I prefer the interpretation that it uses 2 move actions and that this touch is part of them.
Personally I run it that Spell Delivery has its command included in the action cost of the spell being cast. That makes it approximately equivalent to the feat Reach Spell. It doesn't cost a feat, but costs a Familiar ability instead. It also doesn't cost an action immediately when used - it instead costs an action the next round to move your familiar out of danger and back to your space. So the action cost is still pretty equivalent.
I don't understood. You are merging the Spell Delivery into the Cast a Spell activity? Or you are Casting a Spell and then Commanding your familiar? Because if you merge it will cost less actions than Reach Spell that uses an action before you Cast a Spell.

Finoan |

I don't understood. You are merging the Spell Delivery into the Cast a Spell activity? Or you are Casting a Spell and then Commanding your familiar? Because if you merge it will cost less actions than Reach Spell that uses an action before you Cast a Spell.
Combining Spell Delivery into Cast a Spell. So casting a 2-action spell with Spell Delivery would leave the caster with one action left.
Reach Spell costs an action before you cast the spell.
Spell Delivery (potentially) costs an action after you cast the spell (unless combat ends or your familiar dies).
That is why I consider it to be approximately equivalent on the action cost. Both cost an action eventually.
Some other notes:
You can only use the action needed for Spell Delivery the next round. You have already commanded your familiar for the round that you cast the spell on and had the Familiar deliver it. And you can't command your familiar twice in one round.
So that leaves your familiar ending your turn adjacent to the enemy that they just delivered a spell to. So there is no possible way that this enemy doesn't consider the Familiar to be a valid combat target.
After you spend an action getting your familiar to move back to your space on the second round of combat, you have already used your Command for that round. So you can't use Spell Delivery again that round even though you have your familiar in your space.
So at best, you can only use Spell Delivery every other round. Reach Spell can be used every round.

YuriP |

I still don't understood. How this is equivalent?
For a Reach Spell you have to use all your actions in your round just with the spell (unless the spell is one-action). But if you fuses Spell Delivery into Cast a Spell you still give to caster an action to do any other thing that isn't Command you companion.
I understand that the risk of Spell Delivery is greater because it put your familiar in risk to be attacked but also Spell Delivery doesn't have the same cost of a metamagicspellshape that costs an entire feat alone while a familiar gets 2 familiar's abilities per expansion feat and its own feat (when it taken via feat).

Finoan |

But if you fuses Spell Delivery into Cast a Spell you still give to caster an action to do any other thing that isn't Command you companion.
You are still only looking at the one round. Look at both rounds.
-----
Round 1:
◆◆ Cast Spell with Spell Delivery
◆ Something else
Round 2:
◆ Recall Familiar back to you
◆◆ Something else
----- vs -----
Round 1:
◆ Reach Spell
◆◆ Cast Spell
Round 2:
◆◆◆ Something else
-----
In both cases you have spent two actions on Cast a Spell, three actions total on Something else, and one action on the ability to cast the spell at range.
The difference is that the action cost is rearranged. Not lessened for Spell Delivery.
There are edge cases like I mentioned earlier, such as when combat ends on the round that you used Spell Delivery. But at that point, there isn't much difference anyway.
You could also count it as an edge case to just leave your familiar there next to the enemy for multiple rounds and never use the action to recall it to your location. Which makes Spell Delivery a 1/combat ability.
-----
To explore the alternative ruling, what do you consider the balance consideration for needing to spend an action on moving your Familiar from its location next to an enemy on the next round?

YuriP |

I still thinking it's too much specially if you can use your familiar to other things like witches familiar does with their exclusive Familiar Abilities and feats, specially those who have it closer to enemies like Familiar of Freezing Rime, Familiar of Stalking Night. So they can move closer to an enemy but stay there is an advantage, risky, but yet an advantage if you allow the caster to uses its 3rd-action freely.
This would allow a witch to cast a 2-actions touch spell and move the familiar closer to an enemy, then cast/sustain a hex with its 3rd-action and due this it also activates the witch's familiar ability all in the same turn. Basically giving a range to a touch spell and positioning the familiar, all for free.
So if you play defensively planning to call your familiar back to a safest position OK, looks a bit fair but in fact this isn't the only thing that you can do with it and if it is used more aggressively this
quickly could turn it in a big advantage.

Finoan |

I still thinking it's too much specially if you can use your familiar to other things like witches familiar does with their exclusive Familiar Abilities and feats, specially those who have it closer to enemies like Familiar of Freezing Rime, Familiar of Stalking Night.
That is a reasonable thing to consider.
I don't want to balance a universally available Familiar ability in the context of a Witch Familiar specifically.
The ruling for how Spell Delivery works should be balanced for a character that is getting their Familiar from a feat, only gets two Familiar abilities, and has to spend a week of downtime to replace the Familiar if it dies.
Having a very powerful Familiar is a perk that Witch gets for their class balance. If Witch characters get a bit more mileage out of Spell Delivery than other spellcasters, that doesn't seem like a problem to me. Not a problem big enough that I need to penalize the ability for all of the other spellcasters in order to bring it in line.