Suffocate spell: if you succeed on a save, you still have to save every round for 3 rounds, right?


Rules Questions


Spell for reference:

Suffocation

The question is not about failing the saving throw. The question is what happens if you make the save. The spell says you are staggered for 1 round. However, since the spell lasts 3 rounds, on the next round, you have to save again, right? If you keep saving, the spell essentially has you in a "stagger lock" where the best outcome is you are staggered for 3 rounds.

Basically, the spell is a guaranteed 3 rounds of stagger, right?


The target can attempt to resist this spell’s effects with a Fortitude save-if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target’s next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to -1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round’s effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one’s breath-if the victim fails the initial Saving Throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.

The description specifically states that if you make the first save you are only staggered for 1. If you fail the initial save you have to make another save each round or suffer the effect for that round. So, if you make the initial save you are staggered for 1 round and the spell ends. If you fail the initial save you have to make a save for the next 3 rounds. If you make that save nothing happens, and you have to make the save next round or suffer the effect of that round. If you fail the save you suffer the effect of that round, and next round have to make the save for the next rounds effect. This goes on for a total of 3 rounds at which point the spells is over.

So, no you are not staggered for 3 rounds if you make the save, in fact you are only staggered for 1 round even if you fail your save. If you fail the save the next round you are making a save to avoid failing unconscious and dropping to 0 HP. If you make that save nothing happens, but you may need to make a saving throw the next round.


you bolded the wrong part. here let me point you to it:
"The target can attempt to resist this spell’s effects with a Fortitude save-if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target’s next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to -1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round’s effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one’s breath-if the victim fails the initial Saving Throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.

the spell is resisted if he succeed a save, not negated. if the first save would have ended the spell effect it should have mentioned something like "staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath and the spell ends".

the save is to resist the spells effects. if the save would negate the whole spell it should have said: 1- negate, not resist. 2- spell effect not effects and 3- mention that the spell end if the first save is made.

Instead the spell add a 'but', and inform us that no matter what was before it LAST 3 ROUNDS, if this part only talked about those who failed the first save it should have said "each round after the first the target can delay..".
if the 1st save stop it before that it should have mention so, the fact it say he is staggered for 1 round and later add but the spell last 3 and any fail move him down the path of suffocation mean that each save is for that specific rounds effect only and the next turn if the spell's rounds are not over he must save again (if not dead yet). Heck adding extend spell metamagic to this spell will let it last 6 rounds with a save for each.


Couple of counterpoints

zza ni wrote:


the spell is resisted if he succeed a save, not negated. if the first save would have ended the spell effect it should have mentioned something like "staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath and the spell ends".

the save is to resist the spells effects. if the save would negate the whole spell it should have said: 1- negate, not resist. 2- spell effect not effects and 3- mention that the spell end if the first save is made.

1)The spell states "Saving Throw: Fortitude partial", which is normal when there is any effect on a successful save - in this case the staggered effect, so it would not say "negated" at any time.

2)Then note also the line, "Each round the target can delay that round's effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save." So by that argument wouldn't successful saves delay the staggered as well, since would now be one of the effects.

zza ni wrote:


Instead the spell add a 'but', and inform us that no matter what was before it LAST 3 ROUNDS, if this part only talked about those who failed the first save it should have said "each round after the first the target can delay..".
if the 1st save stop it before that it should have mention so, the fact it say he is staggered for 1 round and later add but the spell last 3 and any fail move him down the path of suffocation mean that each save is for that specific rounds effect only and the next turn if the spell's rounds are not over he must save again (if not dead yet). Heck adding extend spell metamagic to...

I can easily read it as having two parts: 1)if the initial save succeeds, then 1 round staggered and 2) if the the save is failed. The "but the spell continues for 3 rounds," can appear to only apply to part of the failed initial save portion.

The last line states that "it can't be defeated by simply holding one's breath - if the victim fails the initial saving throw, the air in his lungs is extracted." I think that clarifies that the saves vs. unconscious, dying, dead sequence only applies if the first Fort save is failed. Otherwise it is just the 1 round staggered.
For it to be the "stagger lock," interpretation, then the wording should be ideally "on a successful save the victim is merely staggered for that round," or, "until the next save attempt."

Compare the wording of Phantasmal Asphyxiation where the stagger is stated to continue throughout the spell. Blood boil is another 3 round 5th level spell where it is also clear that the save must be made each of the 3 rounds.

So reading the 1 round stagger as the sole effect and complete duration for succeeding on the initial save seems reasonable to me.


The spell states if the target fails his initial save, he begins to suffocate. So, on a successful save there is no suffocation. The rest of the text in the description is describing how suffocation works. The effects of each round are identical to the rules for suffocation. The only difference is that the spell allows a saving throw to delay the effect of suffocation each round.

The target can attempt to resist this spell’s effects with a Fortitude save-if he succeeds, he is merely staggered for 1 round as he gasps for breath. If the target fails, he immediately begins to suffocate. On the target’s next turn, he falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points. One round later, the target drops to -1 hit points and is dying. One round after that, the target dies. Each round, the target can delay that round’s effects from occurring by making a successful Fortitude save, but the spell continues for 3 rounds, and each time a target fails his Fortitude save, he moves one step further along the track to suffocation. This spell only affects living creatures that must breathe. It is impossible to defeat the effects of this spell by simply holding one’s breath-if the victim fails the initial Saving Throw, the air in his lungs is extracted.

The sentence of delaying the effects of the spell also specifies that rounds effects from occurring. Those effect are round 1 falls unconscious and is reduced to 0 hit points, round 2 drops to -1 hit point and dying, round 3 target dies. There is no mention of staggered in those effects.

The only place in the description of the spell that mentions the staggered condition it specifies that it is for 1 round. If you strictly by the description of the spell you are not staggered if you fail the initial save.


the discussion on suffocation:N5 has been going on since 2010

a search using "site:https://paizo.com/paizo/faq suffocation" or suffocate doesn't turn up anything, so no FAQs.

I've seen it run two ways; 1{common & I believe RAW}) if the target saves then just staggered for one round, end. 2) target must make 3-4 saves (initial on caster's action then once per start of target's turn, the only unclear part is does the second save happen on the target's 1st or 2nd(the initial being used for the 1st turn's save) turn) vs staggered or starting on the suffocation progression. The second is more powerful (effectively 3 rounds of staggered) but for a 5th level spell it's not overpowered. Honestly the spell could use some rewording/retooling.


3 Rounds of staggered while making the saves is overpowered for a 5th level spell. Then you add on the fact that if the fact that the second failure takes your character out of the combat and drops you to 0 HP, it is even worse.

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