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In game design terms, spontaneous casting is intended to be a drawback, and prepared casting is intended to be an advantage.Lots of people have made very good arguments in this thread about how many of the supporting structures and rules (like generous amounts of signature spells) change that balance. But that is due to those other elements, not to the underlying prepared vs spontaneous distinction.
In a vacuum, prepared > spontaneous -- or at least is believed to be by the people who designed the game.
It used to be true indeed in PF1, but PF2 turned everything around.
A lvl 10 sorcerer in PF1e knew 5 lvl 1 spells, 4 lvl 2, 3 lvl 3, 2 lvl 4 and 1 lvl 5, for a total of 15 spells throughout the levels. In PF1, there was no heightening and no signature spells, so those 15 spells had to matter - especially since some levels, like lvl 3, were stacked with goodies while other levels were more barren. It also had the HUGE drawback of getting his spells one level later than the wizard.
A lvl 10 sorcerer in PF2e knows 4 spells from every level, which makes 20, so 5 more right off the bat, which alleviates a lot of the pressure. But now that heightening is a thing, we also have to take into account signature spells. Your lvl 1 signature spell gives you another option for your levels 2,3,4 and 5. Your lvl 2 signature spell gives you another option for your levels 3,4 and 5, and so on, and so forth.
Meanwhile, a wizard taking Blazing Bolt at level 2 cannot use it at level 4 unless he preps it again.
So, coming from PF1, the arcane sorcerer lost his drawback of getting the spells later AND got more spells known AND got a lot of goodies like +damage, blood magic, focus spells AND got arcane evolution to help him with spells known AND got access to cheap scrolls and staves.
It's not that prepared casting got nerfed, it's that spontaneous got huge buffs.
Tell me its not worth it to know and prepare to counterspell dominate when you know its coming?
Uncommon too so likely you have to do something to get access to a scroll to learn it cause typically a sorcerer or wizard is not going to have access to add it to repertoire or spell book on level up.
Well, of course it's worth it. But the arcane sorcerer can readily add it to his repertoire if need be, just like the wizard - and that's if he doesn't already have it in his selection since it's a great spell despite the incapacitation tag.
Tell me its not worth it to know and prepare to counterspell dominate when you know its coming?
Uncommon too so likely you have to do something to get access to a scroll to learn it cause typically a sorcerer or wizard is not going to have access to add it to repertoire or spell book on level up.
I mean sure, but in this situation the Arcane Sorcerer and Wizard are basically the same.
The Arcane Sorcerer with Arcane Evolution learns Dominate, puts them in their Arcane Evolution list and during daily preparation chooses Dominate at the highest rank they can cast. Now they're ready to Counterspell Dominate, four times if needed.
The Wizard learns Dominate, and has it in their Spellbook. Dominate is Rank 6, so the wizard likely has Clever Counterspell. This means they could use any spell they have prepared that has the Incapacitation or Mental traits to Counterspell. Realistically, though since a Critical Success only allows Rank+3 counteracting, the lowest they can try to use is a Rank 3 spell (and given monster DCs, this wouldn't really be adviseable).
If both characters know during daily prep that they're going to face Dominathor the Unyielding, then they're in the same boat: both will be able to go into the fight ready to counterspell.
The Wizard only has the advantage here if the party gets ambushed by Dominathor and the Wizard has an Incapacitation or Mental spell in an appropiate slot or if the Wizard knows Dominate and the party learns they will have to fight Dominathor (and that he uses Dominate) in a timeframe where using Spell Substitution to slot something in to counter him is viable, but retreating until next daily preparation is not.*
*And obviously this only applies to Spell Substitution wizards, other wizards are in a worse spot.
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If what you're saying is "when you are about to face a big bad guy AND you know his favorite spell is Mariner's Curse AND you have Mariner's Curse in your Spellbook AND the BBEG is not too high level for you to know that specific spell (which is actually a big limitation since solo bosses are usually level +2 or level +3 and thus have access to spells you can't even cast) AND you actually care about the effects of Mariner's Curse enough to counterspell it then yes, I'll give you that, the wizard can prep it.
Oh wait, so can the sorcerer with arcane evolution. So even in this case that never ever happens in an AP whatsoever, they're still even.
The best part is, I don't even have to refute this nonsense, someone else already did it for me:
Tell me its not worth it to know and prepare to counterspell dominate when you know its coming?
Uncommon too so likely you have to do something to get access to a scroll to learn it cause typically a sorcerer or wizard is not going to have access to add it to repertoire or spell book on level up.
As for your own retort:
Well, of course it's worth it. But the arcane sorcerer can readily add it to his repertoire if need be, just like the wizard - and that's if he doesn't already have it in his selection since it's a great spell despite the incapacitation tag.
In what appears to be a running theme for those standing atop their soapbox on this thread, shouting very loudly without ever listening to anyone else, someone else also provided the perfect response before you even made that post:
This usually happens when comparing spontaneous vs Prepared.
Spontaneous is treated as though they know the entire tradition's spell list instead of having to make hard choices and forgo the rest.
The rebuttals assume the particular sorcerer chose the spell needed for the rebuttal. But an actual sorcerer made choices and is not going to be able to answer to every situation in the same way.Prepared gets as much of it as access and GP allows.
That thing Bluemagetim calls out? Yeah, you're doing it now. I'd call this Schrodinger's Sorcerer: when it's convenient for a spell to be in a spontaneous caster's repertoire, it just so happens to be for the sake of the argument, but at the same time, that spontaneous caster also has all the signature spells and space in the remainder of their repertoire to pull the same stunt with... well, everything. The reason why you fail to value prepared spellcasting is because you fail to account for how a spontaneous repertoire is limited in size and can't change easily over time. A space reserved for dominate is one less for other spells, and one signature spell reserved for it brings you down to eight of those. Of course a Wizard will pale in comparison to a Sorcerer when you're pretending the Sorcerer's repertoire is literally their tradition's entire spell list when it suits you.
Now let's go back to being logical. What spells do most spellcasters throw at the party ? Usually the same staple that PCs use: fireball, slow, mist, confusion, vampiric exsanguination, disintegrate... maybe translocate to flee. And who's better at countering all those spells ? That's right, the sorcerer.
This is hilariously untrue. If you face up to a hag coven with an iron hag, for example, the coven will have access to spellwrack -- by itself, a situationally useful spell that might even get in the way of your debuffs, but an absolutely devastating tool in the hands of a coven of spellcasters who can all inflict nasty duration spells upon the whole party. You could perhaps gear your Arcane Evolution towards it, provided you can Learn the appropriate Spell -- but then you'd be ill-prepared against the coven's cuckoo hag, who adds not only dominate but also outcast's curse, which can permanently debuff the party face, alongside the iron hag's impaling spike. You can claim that your Sorcerer has all of these spells in their repertoire, but that then begs the question: what is your Sorcerer's repertoire, exactly? And if their repertoire oh so conveniently allows them to Counterspell everything this particular hag coven throws at them, how then will they fare against the Horde Lich who has an entire array of spells to choose from?
Now you're back to the specific spell substitution wizard, which everyone agrees is great, so I don't see what you're trying to prove here.
Because you yourself are back to not reading what's been presented to you. Here's what that person had said in response to me bringing up Spell Substitution:
What you said there is partly the benefit of spell learning and prepared casting, not the benefit of Spell Substitution.
What makes Spell Substitution so good is that it takes prepared spellcasting up to 11. It is great precisely because it lets you prepare what you need when you need it, which is the defining advantage of prepared casting. It is hypocritical to sing the praises of Spell Substitution while simultaneously claiming that there are no redeeming qualities to spell preparation.
But without being spell sub, the sorcerer can do the exact same with arcane evolution (unless you want on the same day to airlift AND water breathe AND translate).
Looks like I have to bring this up again:
Last time I checked, Arcane Evolution lets you prepare one (1) spell per day, or make one (1) spell already in your repertoire a signature spell. If you think that's powerful, wait until you hear about the Wizard, who at 4th level can prepare literally quadruple that amount. And it only gets better at higher levels! Oh, and in order to prepare a spell and add it to your repertoire with Arcane Evolution, you need to Learn the Spell first, which as this echo chamber often repeats for the Wizard, isn't a given.
So yes, I may very well want to cast airlift, translate, and breathe water on the same day, or more than literally just one specific utility spell. That's not something Arcane Evolution does, and once again, it is hypocritical to sing that feat's praises when the Wizard copies that same benefit to a much greater extent.
You keep saying I don't read your posts, but it seems you don't read mine since I already offered mathematical proof for this.
Every level, a sorcerer gets a signature spell that gives him one more option for his higher level slots.
So at level 4, a sorcerer knows 4 level 2 spells + 1 from lvl 1 signature.
At level 6, he knows 4 level 4 spells + 3 from lvl 1,2 and 3 signature.
At level 12 he knows 4 level 6 spells + 5 from lvl 1 through 5 signature.So every lvl6 slot of a lvl 12 sorcerer has 9 differents options to choose from.
And so on and so forth.
Meanwhile, the wizard can indeed tailor his selection on a daily basis, but he still cannot choose more than 3 different spells +1 static, which gives him way less options.
I don't know how to spell it out more easily, honestly.
Congratulations on demonstrating you don't understand how spontaneous spellcasting works. Spells in your repertoire don't auto-heighten when you cast them with higher-rank slots unless they're signature spells -- that is in fact why signature spells exist to begin with. By having jump as a 1st-rank spell in your repertoire, you won't be able to cast its 3rd-rank version unless you either add it to your repertoire again as a 3rd-rank spell, or make it a signature spell. So yes, your Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells with their 6th-rank slots... but most of them will be cast as lower-rank spells, and I don't know about you, but using a 6th-rank slot to cast a 1st-rank runic weapon doesn't sound like a very effective play to me.
Which brings us to the truth of the matter: as a spontaneous spellcaster, you're forced to have most of your spells exist only as spells of a certain rank, in a game where most spells are more powerful when heightened to a higher rank. This forces a choice: either you pick each spell only once, forcing you to only be able to cast them at a specific rank, or you add at least some spells more than once to your repertoire. In both cases, you end up with fewer options than you advertized, and in both cases there are significant tradeoffs.
This, in turn, brings us to the prepared caster: when a prepared spellcaster prepares their spells, those spells are heightened to the spell slot's rank. Each time you cast that spell, you cast it at exactly the amount of power that spell slots allows, which is more efficient than using a spell slot to cast a spell of a lower rank. This also means that by the time you've expended all of your spell slots, or most of them at least, you'll have expended the spells you needed for the day -- a spontaneous caster won't be able to cast literally all of the spells in their repertoire in a single day unless they dedicated each slot to a different spell, the equivalent of a prepared spellcaster preparing a different spell into each slot. For some reason, you insist upon pretending that prepared spellcasters have less spell output than spontaneous spellcasters given the same number of spell slots, without so much as a shred of evidence.
Apart from being quite obnoxious while I'm trying to stay polite, this is still way wrong.
As I pointed out quite extensively in my ABC explanation:
- Most of the time, you don't need a silver bullet spell in an adventuring day.
- When you do and it's utility, it's often on a scroll or wand.
- When you do and you need a lot of copies of it, you can use Arcane Evolution.It doesn't matter that it's only one spell a day, since that's enough to replicate the only teeny weeny advantage the prepared caster could have.
Calling someone epithets is the opposite of polite, so don't bother. What's more, you're not "pointing out" anything here, you're just repeating the exact same nonsense that just got debunked. There are plenty of opportunities for utility spells in the adventuring day, by simple virtue of there being plenty of spells that can all have a beneficial impact in a variety of situations (this is especially true of arcane spells, many of which interact with the environment or with people out of combat). Often, that spell will not be in your items, and may even be too costly to buy a scroll for. Arcane Evolution only covers one spell, not several, and only if you Learned the Spell first. Meanwhile, even a restricted class like the Wizard adds spells to their spellbook without having to ask the GM for more. This isn't a "teeny weeny advantage", this is the reason why prepared casters are adaptable in ways spontaneous casters very much aren't.
But after careful thought, it seems that you're not even trying to read or understand what everybody here is trying to tell you, and you think you alone have some kind of truth that refute proof, math and logic.
So keep going, I won't waste my breath on you, especially since you're lacking poise and manners - which are very much what a wizard is about, after all ^^
You say, as you desperately try to argue with... is it three different people at the same time now? Yeah, I don't think I'm the one failing to read or understand what "everybody" is saying here, particularly as you're not "everybody". You're just someone who not only fails to understand what makes the Wizard appeal to players who actually like the class, but sees strictly no value in any of their mechanics whatsoever. All your overblown argumentation and half-baked homebrew have demonstrated is that the Wizard is just not the class for you -- and again, that's okay. Perhaps it would be better to accept this and move on, however, rather than ask to twist the class into the polar opposite of what it's meant to be. Just a thought.
Oh, and by the way: social skills are the domain of the Sorcerer, a Charisma-focused class, rather than the Wizard, an Intelligence-focused class who's often much better with books than they are with people. Perhaps if you played a Sorcerer and just called your character a Wizard, you'd have a better time.
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Well, of course it's worth it. But the arcane sorcerer can readily add it to his repertoire if need be, just like the wizard - and that's if he doesn't already have it in his selection since it's a great spell despite the incapacitation tag.Tell me its not worth it to know and prepare to counterspell dominate when you know its coming?
Uncommon too so likely you have to do something to get access to a scroll to learn it cause typically a sorcerer or wizard is not going to have access to add it to repertoire or spell book on level up.
Ok good so we agree theres reason to want to set up counterspell.
But for a sorcerer its not as easy and i wouldnt say readily.For none arcane evolution sorcerers its at level up if they have somehow gained access which doesnt apply at all to the wizard.
and thats a big restriction.
Now if were saying every arcane sorcerer must have arcane evolution to play then now we have fixed a feat choice in place that not every one is going to pick up. The ones that have it have that flexibility to learn more spells and add it to rep for the day one at a time. and remember it actually has another limitation sorcerers are not as good at as wizards. They have to actually learn it and roll to see if they didnt mess up. Arcana is the relevant check and better hope the sorcerer skilled that up to learn what might be a hard roll. Domination is 28 DC for a 6th rank spell, soonest this can be learned is level 11 and its about a 50/50 shot maybe less and 140 gold for a master arcana sorcerer without magic items dedicated to increasing that chance. A fail means waiting for level up anyway.
A wizard with arcana master is getting the spell learned on a 7 or up before adding in magic items.
Really the effect of this might be a delay in the spells added to a sorcerer's list compared to a same level wizard.
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You keep saying I don't read your posts, but it seems you don't read mine since I already offered mathematical proof for this.
Every level, a sorcerer gets a signature spell that gives him one more option for his higher level slots.
So at level 4, a sorcerer knows 4 level 2 spells + 1 from lvl 1 signature.
At level 6, he knows 4 level 4 spells + 3 from lvl 1,2 and 3 signature.
At level 12 he knows 4 level 6 spells + 5 from lvl 1 through 5 signature.So every lvl6 slot of a lvl 12 sorcerer has 9 differents options to choose from.
And so on and so forth.
Meanwhile, the wizard can indeed tailor his selection on a daily basis, but he still cannot choose more than 3 different spells +1 static, which gives him way less options.
I don't know how to spell it out more easily, honestly.
Congratulations on demonstrating you don't understand how spontaneous spellcasting works. Spells in your repertoire don't auto-heighten when you cast them with higher-rank slots unless they're signature spells -- that is in fact why signature spells exist to begin with. By having jump as a 1st-rank spell in your repertoire, you won't be able to cast its 3rd-rank version unless you either add it to your repertoire again as a 3rd-rank spell, or make it a signature spell. So yes, your Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells with their 6th-rank slots... but most of them will be cast as lower-rank spells, and I don't know about you, but using a 6th-rank slot to cast a 1st-rank runic weapon doesn't sound like a very effective play to me.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Blue Frog's example isn't saying spells auto-heighten.
What he's saying is that your signature spells are, effectively, more spells of your highest rank.
If you're a 7th level Sorcerer, you have access to 4th Rank Spells. Your repertoire will have 1 4th rank spell from Bloodline and 2 you can pick yourself.
But, if you've picked Signature Spells correctly, you will also have those available, at minimal loss.
For example, if your 1st Rank Signature is Force Barrage, your 2nd Rank Signature is Blazing Bolts and your 3rd Rank Signature is Fireball, then, using your 4th Rank Slots you can cast:
- Your Bloodline Spell
- 4th Rank Spell A (your choice)
- 4th Rank Spell B (your choice)
- 4th Rank Force Barrage (which is no different than 3rd Rank)
- 4th Rank Blazing Bolts
- 4th Rank Fireball
So while the Sorcerer only has 3 slots, they can use them to cast any of these 6 spells, in any combination. Yes, up-casting some spells is worthless, but that's where Signature spell selection is crucial. If you do it right, then you can expand your options without giving up too much power.
The 7th level Wizard meanwhile will only ever have access to a maximum of 3 spells (school slot + 2), and the broader they go the less they can cast each of those spells.
You keep saying I don't read your posts, but it seems you don't read mine since I already offered mathematical proof for this.
Every level, a sorcerer gets a signature spell that gives him one more option for his higher level slots.
So at level 4, a sorcerer knows 4 level 2 spells + 1 from lvl 1 signature.
At level 6, he knows 4 level 4 spells + 3 from lvl 1,2 and 3 signature.
At level 12 he knows 4 level 6 spells + 5 from lvl 1 through 5 signature.So every lvl6 slot of a lvl 12 sorcerer has 9 differents options to choose from.
And so on and so forth.
Meanwhile, the wizard can indeed tailor his selection on a daily basis, but he still cannot choose more than 3 different spells +1 static, which gives him way less options.
I don't know how to spell it out more easily, honestly.
Congratulations on demonstrating you don't understand how spontaneous spellcasting works. Spells in your repertoire don't auto-heighten when you cast them with higher-rank slots unless they're signature spells -- that is in fact why signature spells exist to begin with. By having jump as a 1st-rank spell in your repertoire, you won't be able to cast its 3rd-rank version unless you either add it to your repertoire again as a 3rd-rank spell, or make it a signature spell. So yes, your Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells with their 6th-rank slots... but most of them will be cast as lower-rank spells, and I don't know about you, but using a 6th-rank slot to cast a 1st-rank runic weapon doesn't sound like a very effective play to me.
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Blue Frog's example isn't saying spells auto-heighten.
What he's saying is that your signature spells are, effectively, more spells of your highest rank.
If you're a 7th level Sorcerer, you have access to 4th Rank Spells. Your repertoire will have 1 4th rank spell from Bloodline and 2 you can pick yourself.
But, if you've picked Signature Spells...
Sig spell selection is pretty important and its why I think getting to make other spells you know signature is the strongest feature of arcane evolution.
Sig spells address heighten issues for select spells but again they have to be selected and leeway to change them usually has to wait till level ups.Really what I am getting at is you make choices and you draw in the lines you made.
A wizard just gets to keep adding to their choices.
Blue Frog's example isn't saying spells auto-heighten.
What he's saying is that your signature spells are, effectively, more spells of your highest rank.
But they're not, is the point. Having more spells to choose from does not translate to an increase in spell output, and at the end of the day, your 7th-level Sorcerer is only casting three 4th-rank spells, same as the Wizard. The Sorcerer has more options to choose from within the day, certainly, and that choice carries power, but by that same virtue, so does the ability to change your options every day, which both they and you are completely discounting. It is a double standard to vaunt the choice inherent in one form of spellcasting while refusing to acknowledge the choice inherent in the other.
And by the way, please don't go claiming this:
I don't really have a dog in this fight
When you clearly do:
The Wizard only has the advantage here if the party gets ambushed by Dominathor and the Wizard has an Incapacitation or Mental spell in an appropiate slot or if the Wizard knows Dominate and the party learns they will have to fight Dominathor (and that he uses Dominate) in a timeframe where using Spell Substitution to slot something in to counter him is viable, but retreating until next daily preparation is not.*
*And obviously this only applies to Spell Substitution wizards, other wizards are in a worse spot.
You clearly have chosen a side when you too ascribe to the notion that a spellcaster only ever needs to prepare one spell in the day and no more, and that a spontaneous spellcaster will magically always have the exact spell that's needed in their repertoire. Refer to the above example of the hag coven to see how that falls apart the moment you introduce even a single other spell that would need to be prepared around for Counterspelling, or to the more general examples of niche utility spells that are easy to prepare but costly to include in a repertoire.
Congratulations on demonstrating you don't understand how spontaneous spellcasting works. Spells in your repertoire don't auto-heighten when you cast them with higher-rank slots unless they're signature spells -- that is in fact why signature spells exist to begin with. By having jump as a 1st-rank spell in your repertoire, you won't be able to cast its 3rd-rank version unless you either add it to your repertoire again as a 3rd-rank spell, or make it a signature spell. So yes, your Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells with their 6th-rank slots... but most of them will be cast as lower-rank spells, and I don't know about you, but using a 6th-rank slot to cast a 1st-rank runic weapon doesn't sound like a very effective play to me.
Wow.
I'll try again, more slowly this time, because you seem a bit confused.At first level, let's say I take force barrage as my signature spell. We ok so far ?
At third level, let's say I take blazing bolt as my signature spell. We still ok ?
At fifth level, let's say I take cave fangs as my signature spell
At seventh level, let's say I take containment as my signature spell.
And then, at ninth level, I get scouting eye and choose black tentacles and shadow siphon.
What this means is, with my 5th level spell slots, I can cast:
- Force barrage enhancedlevel 5
- Blazing bolt enhanced to level 5
- Cave fangs enhanced to level 5
- Containment enhanced to level 5
- Scouting Eye
- Black Tentacles
- Shadow Siphon.
I hope you got it this time, I don't know how I can be clearer.
And, for the sake of this shrödinger sorcerer argument, I'll play the game and give you one spell list. It's by no means a perfect spell list but it's some food for thought.
Level 1: Force Barrage*, Interposing Earth, Befuddle, Goblin Pox
Level 2: Dispel magic*, Ignite Fireworks, Acid Grip, Laughing fit
Level 3: Haste, Blazing Bolt*, Slow, Wooden Double
Level 4: Translocate, Invisibility*, Fly, fear
Level 5: Scouting Eye, Howling Blizzard*, Wall of stone, Shadow Siphon
For offense: I can deal acid, fire and cold damage (and electricity with electric arc), so all bases are covered. Howling Blizzard is a big AOE, Blazing Bolt is selective, Force Barrage is pure damage. I have spells that target reflex, will, AC and fortitude.
For Debuff: I can slow, fear, befuddle, laughing fit, goblin pox or ignite fireworks
For Control: I have Wall of Stone and Acid Grip
For Utility: I have both invisibilities, translocate, fly and signature Dispel Magic.
For defense: I have interposing earth, wooden double, shadow siphon and wall of stone.
A staff of the unseeing eye will give me sure strike, translate and see the unseen. A wand of tailwind will give me all-day long enhanced speed.
As for scrolls:
- 2 scrolls of water breathing
- 1 scroll of befitting attire
- 1 scroll of embed message
- 2 scrolls of gecko grip
- 1 scroll of shrink
- 1 scroll of clairaudience
- 1 scroll of cosy cabin
- 1 scroll of dream message
- 1 scroll of earthbind
- 1 scroll of feet to fins
- 1 scroll of airlift
- 1 scroll of fireball
- 1 scroll of discern lies
- 1 scroll of lightning bolt
- 2 scrolls of unfettered movement
For a grand total of 574 gp out of 8000gp, which gives me a lot of leeway (so no "gotcha, you forgot this spell", I just put this list by memory and might have omitted a couple scrolls ^^).
Now, remember I can learn all those spells and change one of them to suit the challenge ahead. Maybe we're doing an infiltration and Befitting Attire would look good. Maybe we're going diving and Feet to fins seems awesome. Maybe we're facing flying creatures and earthbind seems mandatory. Maybe we'll encounter grapplers and I should take unfettered movement.
Meanwhile, the wizard could try to make a spell list tailored to the situation but, lacking signature spells and being a prepared spellcaster, he's much more constrained and can't adapt to any surprise going his way. He expected to face trolls weak to fire and prepared a lot of fire spells ? Too bad one of them is immune to it.
And let's not forget that I deal more damage with every blast and that my debuffs are stickier.
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But that brings me to a challenge: what is the smallest rules change you can think of which will fix the wizard? Smallest is obviously subjective, but think in terms of changes to the current text. So "better feats" is a big change, while "in the table, make every 3 a 4" is moderate (characters change count ~100-200). Making spell substitution a class feature might be considered small, since Paizo would only need to cut the paragraph and paste it under drain magic item as a class feature, practically no text change at all, just a text placement change.
So, I would like some Wizard Feats that greatly expand the use of Schools and school slots.
Small would be allowing you to pick up additional schools. I don't think that is enough.
What I think would be enough is a feat that would expand your school to be all spells of a particular trait. As an example, a feat that let your school be all Illusion, and then a second feat that would expand that to all Mental.
(I would expect the first feat to be pick from a list, and the second feat to be pick from another list that was dependent on the first one picked.)
That would get schools back to the same power level they were premaster, which was a pretty good spot.
There is more you could do (like a feat that increased your DC by 1 with school spells, or a feat that allowed you to change out the spells in your school slot with 10 min prep) but I think that is the minimum that would work.
I am holding out hope that there will be some fixes for spell schools in Rival Academies -- maybe this one, maybe something different. But if I was doing the design, that is what I would do.
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I am holding out hope that there will be some fixes for spell schools in Rival Academies -- maybe this one, maybe something different. But if I was doing the design, that is what I would do.
I was going to make a post about my predictions for the actual content of Rivals, generally being pessimistic.
But the Wizard is so anemic that I stopped half way through and thought “you know what, even though I am being pessimistic, these would all be welcome additions anyway.”
Wow.
I'll try again, more slowly this time, because you seem a bit confused.At first level, let's say I take force barrage as my signature spell. We ok so far ?
At third level, let's say I take blazing bolt as my signature spell. We still ok ?
At fifth level, let's say I take cave fangs as my signature spell
At seventh level, let's say I take containment as my signature spell.
And then, at ninth level, I get scouting eye and choose black tentacles and shadow siphon.
What this means is, with my 5th level spell slots, I can cast:
- Force barrage enhancedlevel 5
- Blazing bolt enhanced to level 5
- Cave fangs enhanced to level 5
- Containment enhanced to level 5
- Scouting Eye
- Black Tentacles
- Shadow Siphon.I hope you got it this time, I don't know how I can be clearer.
You might want to clarify how you can cast seven spells with four spell slots. Once again, you are holding the Sorcerer and the Wizard to different standards, where the former can cast every spell they have, whereas the latter cannot. You forget that every spell the Sorcerer has in their repertoire, the Wizard can prepare. You tell me the Sorcerer cast four of the signature spells you chose; those are the four spells the Wizard can have prepared at that same rank. And what's more, whereas the Sorcerer is stuck with those signature spells the next day, the Wizard can prepare four entirely different spells if they so choose. I hope you got it this time, I don't know how I can be clearer.
And, for the sake of this shrödinger sorcerer argument, I'll play the game and give you one spell list. It's by no means a perfect spell list but it's some food for thought.
So, to be very clear: you have strictly none of the utility spells that got mentioned above, zero spells for social interaction, and none of the spells that could be used to Counterspell anything from that hag coven. Oh, and because neither are signature spells, wooden double and shadow siphon are both doomed to fall off as you level up. Sounds an awful lot to me like your repertoire has its limits that a prepared spellcaster could easily cover. I don't even have to make much of an effort to substantiate this either: take a Wizard, put all of the spells you chose in their spellbook, then just fill the remaining space up with whatever you like. Limited as the Wizard is, they therefore have more adaptability across the days than the Sorcerer.
For a grand total of 574 gp out of 8000gp, which gives me a lot of leeway.
Oh boy. Where to begin?
And just to spell it out: don't buy the expensive scrolls unless you really need to. Buy the really cheap, low-level scrolls instead, so that you can get lots of utility without making a dent in your purse each time. At 9th level, your 1st- and 2nd-level spells here are easy pickings. With just that one scroll of fireball, you could've instead picked seven different 1st-level scrolls or two 2nd-level scrolls, and still had change to spare.
Now, remember I can learn all those spells and change one of them to suit the challenge ahead. Maybe we're doing an infiltration and Befitting Attire would look good. Maybe we're going diving and Feet to fins seems awesome. Maybe we're facing flying creatures and earthbind seems mandatory. Maybe we'll encounter grapplers and I should take unfettered movement.
Meanwhile, the wizard could try to make a spell list tailored to the situation but, lacking signature spells and being a prepared spellcaster, he's much more constrained and can't adapt to any surprise going his way. He expected to face trolls weak to fire and prepared a lot of fire spells ? Too bad one of them is immune to it.
Whoops, looks like someone forgot how the Wizard worked! Tell me: what exactly do you think Wizards do with spell scrolls? Eat them? Because literally every spell scroll you mentioned, the Wizard can Learn the Spell from it, allowing them to prepare those spells entirely for free. They don't have to tailor anything in this particular respect, just give themselves more options. Unless you're running such a marathon adventuring day that even your 1st- and 2nd-rank spell slots will be absolutely necessary in combat, you'll be able to spare a few slots for that utility you bought those scrolls for, and will be able to do this every day.
And just so we're clear: I'm not saying this makes the Wizard a good class. I wouldn't have written a 25-page, lavishly-detailed homebrew for the Wizard if I thought the class was fine. The Wizard is a weak class who could use a boost, and prepared spellcasting definitely has its flaws. The problem, however, is that it also has its qualities, and you've doubled down so hard on your narrative that the Wizard has no redeeming features that you've hard-committed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Your assessment of the Wizard does not reflect how the Wizard works, and your assessment of spontaneous casting is so painfully disconnected from play experience, right down to not understanding how party wealth works, that I cannot say for sure whether you've played a Sorcerer at all, or even any character as far as level 9. There's little more to add, really, except this:
So keep going, I won't waste my breath on you, especially since you're lacking poise and manners - which are very much what a wizard is about, after all ^^
When you posture like this, only to go back on what you've said immediately afterwards, that says a lot of things, none of them good. I urge you to reconsider the way you've been approaching your own thread, as I think the discussion here has ceased to be productive long ago, and so as a direct result of your own involvement.
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Well, I tried to have a discussion in good faith and explain signature spells to you like I would my kid, you still have it all wrong, that's ok.
Moving on.
But they're not, is the point. Having more spells to choose from does not translate to an increase in spell output, and at the end of the day, your 7th-level Sorcerer is only casting three 4th-rank spells, same as the Wizard. The Sorcerer has more options to choose from within the day, certainly, and that choice carries power, but by that same virtue, so does the ability to change your options every day, which both they and you are completely discounting. It is a double standard to vaunt the choice inherent in one form of spellcasting while refusing to acknowledge the choice inherent in the other.Blue Frog's example isn't saying spells auto-heighten.
What he's saying is that your signature spells are, effectively, more spells of your highest rank.
This isn't true though. Lets take the Sorcerer that has been brought up over and over again: Imperial.
Their 4th Rank bloodline spell is translocate. Lets say they decide to pick airlift and solid fog to add to their repertoire.
In any given encounter, they have access to all of those spells + their signature spells, which are all damaging spells (force barrage, blazing bolts, fireball).
If a wizard chooses to prepare translocate, airlift and solid fog, that is it. They have no way to turn their slots into damage in case of an emergency. If the wizard chooses to prepare 4th rank damaging spells, then they don't have translocate, airlift or solid fog.
No matter what the wizard does, they have less options on how they spend their slots during the adventuring day. They do have a much higher diversity overall, but it goes back to what this thread has been discussing over and over: how useful is it being able to prepare very niche spells vs being a generalist? You clearly place great value in it, many other people don't.
I personally see the value of it, but the Wizard isn't only prepared spellcasting, it's a whole class and it has lackluster features and feats that just make it very unappealing to me. I've played Witch, Cleric and Druid and found them all to be very fun, I've never loved prepared casting but it's not a dealbreaker for me.
And by the way, please don't go claiming this:
I don't really have a dog in this fightWhen you clearly do:
You clearly have chosen a side when you too ascribe to the notion that a spellcaster only ever needs to prepare one spell in the day and no more, and that a spontaneous spellcaster will magically always have the exact spell that's needed in their repertoire. Refer to the above example of the hag coven to see how that falls apart the moment you introduce even a single other spell that would need to be prepared around for Counterspelling, or to the more general examples of niche utility spells that are easy to prepare but costly to include in a repertoire.The Wizard only has the advantage here if the party gets ambushed by Dominathor and the Wizard has an Incapacitation or Mental spell in an appropiate slot or if the Wizard knows Dominate and the party learns they will have to fight Dominathor (and that he uses Dominate) in a timeframe where using Spell Substitution to slot something in to counter him is viable, but retreating until next daily preparation is not.*
*And obviously this only applies to Spell Substitution wizards, other wizards are in a worse spot.
I will repeat: no dog in this fight.
My response to Bluemagetim was in regard to his particular post: ie is Counterspell useful for something like Dominate, and yeah, it is, but if you only care about Dominate then there isn't a lot of difference between an Arcane Sorcerer with Arcane Evolution and a Wizard with Clever Counterspell if what you want to do is ruin Dominathor's day by counterspelling his big thing.
In your example, you name spellwrack, outcast's curse, dominate and impaling spike. Your Wizard can in fact learn all of them relatively easily. With Clever counterspell, you'd need:
- 1 prepared spell with [Curse] or [Force] (for Spellwrack, which is Rank 6 or above)
- 1 prepared spell with [Curse], [Misfortune] or [Mental] (for Outcast's Curse, which is Rank 4 or above)
- 1 prepared spell with [Uncommon] or [Incapacitate] or [Mental] (for Dominate, which is Rank 6 or above)
- 1 prepared spell with [Metal] (for Impaling Spike, which is Rank 5 or above).
Thankfully by the power of simplification we can see we only really need to prepare our own Outcast's Curse to counter the Hag's Spellwrack, Outcast's Curse or Dominate. We need something with Metal for Impaling Spike, which would be either our own Impaling Spike or maybe something like Rust Cloud, just in case we don't actually Counterspell, so we have a nice spell to turn on them (particularly Impaling Spike, since cold iron and all that).
Realistically, we'd want 2x Outcast's Curse (for 2 Dominates) and Impaling Spike.
If a Hag uses Outcast's Curse I'd be delighted, they're essentially wasting their actions, especially because it's a Coven spell, which means the hags have spend 4 out of their combined 12 actions to cast it.
The other spells you listed are also Coven spells, and arguably not worth 4 actions either, but they're at least worthy of consideration, especially because if you pull off a Counterspell, the hags wasted 4 actions instead of just 2.
So yeah, the Wizard can shine here. By preparing only 2 or 3 spells, they can completely shut down the hags Coven spells, whereas a Sorcerer would need to pick 1 (Dominate, most likely).*
Of course if your info is wrong and you don't end up facing a Hag coven, then those Outcast's Curse you prepared are now of very dubious use, while the Sorcerer's Dominate might not be. But that is the price you pay for versatility.
*I played with a friend whose Sorcerer knew Impaling Spike, and as a signature no less, but he was going all in on METAL so I'm unsure how normal that'd be in the wild. My guess: not very normal.
This isn't true though. Lets take the Sorcerer that has been brought up over and over again: Imperial.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Imperial Sorcerer, like literally any other Sorcerer, has 4 spell slots per rank. Ergo, they're still not going to cast more than 4 spells of any given rank, all else held equal, and those are spells the Wizard could have prepared. So not only is what I'm pointing out self-evidently true, all you're doing here is merely restate what's already been said: spontaneous casters have more options during the day, but prepared casters have more options across days. You don't get to acknowledge one but not the other.
how useful is it being able to prepare very niche spells vs being a generalist? You clearly place great value in it, many other people don't.
The ability to swap in and out of very niche spells is what allows a character to be more of a generalist than a character who is stuck committing to a smaller range of spells. You're not "many other people" here; it is obvious you don't see the value in spell preparation either, and have even explicitly said this, so there's no use in hiding behind others.
I will repeat: no dog in this fight.
My response to Bluemagetim was in regard to his particular post: ie is Counterspell useful for something like Dominate, and yeah, it is, but if you only care about Dominate then there isn't a lot of difference between an Arcane Sorcerer with Arcane Evolution and a Wizard with Clever Counterspell if what you want to do is ruin Dominathor's day by counterspelling his big thing.
You are the one who inserted the straw man clause of "if you only care about Dominate", not Bluemagetim. The situation they bring up does not even make sense in the context of a single spell; it is an illustrative example of how a prepared spellcaster can prepare around one spell among many, and can even prepare around several at once. A Sorcerer cannot do this, and Arcane Evolution would only ever cover one spell (and again, only one you've learned beforehand). I'm once again not defending the current state of the Wizard here; there's just a lot of pointless whining and hyperbole going round that, for all your enthusiasm for playing devil's advocate here, you don't appear to have seen fit to butt in to correct, merely reinforce. As much as I want the Wizard to improve, I don't think any intelligent conversation will come about in an environment where people see literally zero value to spell preparation or the uniqueness of the arcane spell list, both of which are pillars of the class's design.
Since Sorcerers can make this decision more on the fly, and combat is generally the aspect of the game with the most limiting factors, the ability to forgo a utility spell when - in that moment - you really need a fireball, is paramount.
But that just means the sorcerer is forgoing the utility spell alltogether because it doesn't make the cut for repertoire selection.
Well no, the sorcerer can create your exact load-out (i.e. a single 3rd rank damage-dealing spell + haste, slow, wooden double) and then cast fireball over and over in combat if needed. A wizard can't, though drain item lets her repeat cast once per day. Now, if they find out they're going into the Temple of Elemental Fire tomorrow, and the wizard knows lightning bolt (spend 16gp for it prior to the adventure), then they are good. The sorcerer OTOH is going to be spending 30gp a pop for every lightning bolt scroll they want to buy, or using signature force barrage. But we have to keep in mind that "You're going against a bunch of fire elementals tomorrow" is a rare situation: in most campaigns and APs, you won't necessarily know that, the threats won't be so uniform, and so "I'm just gonna recast fireball whatever we face, and use non-fire or non-reflex cantrips where that doesn't work" is a pretty reliably effective strategy.
***
But that brings me to a challenge: what is the smallest rules change you can think of which will fix the wizard? Smallest is obviously subjective, but think in terms of changes to the current text. So "better feats" is a big change, while "in the table, make every 3 a 4" is moderate (characters change count ~100-200). Making spell substitution a class feature might be considered small, since Paizo would only need to cut the paragraph and paste it under drain magic item as a class feature, practically no text change at all, just a text placement change.
Here's my entry: change the drain bonded item frequency to "once per ten...
An Arcane Sorcerer uses his spell book to slot lightning bolt or a cold spell for the temple of fire.
Or uses Force barrage.
A sorcerer building a repertoire will pick a variety of high value blasting spells that vary in damage and type. Their slots are not so limited they can't do this.
But that brings me to a challenge: what is the smallest rules change you can think of which will fix the wizard? Smallest is obviously subjective, but think in terms of changes to the current text. So "better feats" is a big change, while "in the table, make every 3 a 4" is moderate (characters change count ~100-200). Making spell substitution a class feature might be considered small, since Paizo would only need to cut the paragraph and paste it under drain magic item as a class feature, practically no text change at all, just a text placement change.
That's a fun one. That immediately makes me think of the following changes:
-Change KAS to be INT or CHA. Bit of a sacred cow... but we're talking about quick and effective changes, here.
-Change skills to 3+INT.
-Set spells per day to 4 and reduce schools to one additional spell known per rank. (This should cut a small amount of wordcount.)
-Make spellshape into a normal class feature and remove it from the list of theses. Just give it to wizard as a level 1 ability. Getting Reach Spell for free is pretty good, and a flexible spellshape feat at L4 is also pretty good when there's no additional opportunity cost. This should ultimately be a small page count change, since you're mostly moving text around... but page layout could make it more than I'd expect.
-Make thesis say something like "You gain two Arcane Theses. The first can be either spell substitution, or familiar; and the second can be either staff nexus or spell blending." This way you get one more utility-oriented thesis and one more combat-oriented thesis.
Might be overkill, but it'd certainly be a lot of QoL at once.
Spell Analysis and valuation in PF2 is based on the four saving throw levels and the effect of the spell.
As an example, we learned in play that Warp Mind even on a critical failure is a joke spell due to how easy it is to remove the confused condition by hitting the target. So if you take this spell using a level 7 resource and cast it on a target, then the martials hit the target causing the effect to be dispelled you are working at odds making something like warp mind very low value.
Dominate is middling value. You would not in general spend many resources to remove it because it only sticks for a long time on a critical failure. On a regular failure, the PC will get a chance to resist it every round leading to a high chance of a save if they fail the initial save. It also needs to be cast often at near highest level to affect a creature, which means to counterspell or counteract it you will need a fairly high roll to remove it against a CR+2 or more enemy. A class with signature spells with Dispel Magic is far better to get rid of this than a counterpsell attempt by a prepared caster using a dominate spell they prepped as the difference between a spontaneous and prepared is when a prepared caster uses a resource, the spell is gone from use whereas a spontaneous caster loses only a spell slot. Their other spell slots can still be used to cast a variety of spells.
With spells like Dominate, Arcane Countermeasures is pretty amazing often automatically lowering its level giving the incap bonus for resisting it to your party. No check required for a focus spell with 120 foot range.
Counterspell is mostly effective against instantaneous or permanent effects you can't dispel a different way. Counterspell against a blast at a key moment would be one of the better uses of the spell as if it hits the entire group, it's hard to heal that back up given the two action single target heal is the most valuable heal as you level up. They have a spell in game to handle this called Shadow Siphon which is a reaction and has a built in +2 level for counteract increase allowing you to slot it in a lower level slot and still have it be useful for lowering aoe direct instantaneous damage.
I would also not use counterspell on an effect like slow as the better option at high level is to counter with haste. When hasted, you can give up the extra haste action to counter the action reduction from slow.
Slow is a high value spell because very few enemies are immune and only a critical success on a save resists it. And it has no incap trait. It works against almost everything, especially with the removal of spell immunity from numerous creatures.
You can do an analysis of each spell to see its value when building a prepared list or a spell repertoire and how it interacts with the PF2 magic system with its four tiered save system.
In PF1 when saves were save or you're done, countering was extremely important. In PF2 with the four save system, short durations, and the weakened effects with the incapacitation trait, countering has become far less important than it was in previous editions.
You also have to factor in your group who often have built in critical success on a success saves that are very high mixed with feats that allow quicker recovery from dangerous effects like Fast Recovery.
You should be looking at how the total game works when analyzing a caster class.
I know this won't fix the prepared caster issue, but honestly I feel Paizo should release a web supplement that expands on the curriculums to show them a more appropriate size.
Curriculums give you the ability to add spells to the curriculum, but the guidelines are too short for GMs to consistently expand upon, which results in wide table variance. Some GMs only are going to stick to the small and strict list. And while some GMs will expand the list to the hundreds, their version of one curriculum might be different than another GMs.
If Paizo stressed that curriculums are meant to be expanded on, and gave each curriculum a 100-200 spell-list of base spells to work off of, at least GMs would more easily and consistently tell if appropriate spells would belong in the curriculum.
If it's too small for the main book, that's why Paizo has the Web Supplement series.
Most prepared casters are fine because they have great or at least good class features and feats.
The druid as an example can take two orders. I often opt for Storm and Untamed. With a combination of Storm Order feats and Untamed Shift, you have massive versatility. Want to explore underwater? Turn into a shark. Want to get over a wall? Turn into an ape or a flying creature. Want to move the party over an obstacle? Turn into a huge bird or a dragon. Want to flank in three dimensions? Turn into an air elemental.
Cleric is fine because healing is powerful. They get enough heals to be impactful, while using their slots for useful spells.
Witch has some good hexes, feats, and a familiar that is better now. The much better feats really helped the witch. They also can fill multiple roles. You don't need to be a battle caster witch. You can make a healer witch and do great.
Prepared casting isn't the main problem with the wizard. Even with prepared casting, you can slot the best spells and you'll fine including the wizard. It's wizard class features and feats that just aren't great.
Thats actually a point of agreement for most people here. That wizard is not bad. Well some do think they are bad but not everyone no matter what we've all argued so far.
In the past Deriven Firelion you've expressed before that they are boring but as a legendary caster they are not weak. I agree with that mechanically. Thematically i like the idea of schools.
Drain bonded item is a wizards strongest feature. Any 9th rank or lower spell prepared can just be recast. This is an extra top spell slot with only one restriction, the spell was slotted and already cast. May be boring but it is powerful.
Thesis are not all equal but some grant an already flexible base of a prepared caster more flexibility in how a wizard prepares each day.(and flexibility here meaning ability to set up differently each day with more spells to select from than spontaneous casters) you don't value this kind of flexibility because you feel its not necessary. Its a reasonable stance to have, but recognizing that it can have merit is not unreasonable.
People think school curriculum are a straight jacket on the 4th slot. Easiest errata for that is to remove the fourth slot restriction of only slotting school spells.
People think theses should be something you can double dip same way druids can get order explorer? easiest fix is to add a feat allowing wizards to essentially order explorer with thesis. Use an appropriate level req for the feat as the balancing point.
People think focus spells are just too weak or are not great for the wizard? I'm sure new schools in rival schools will have something else to try. They made a structure in wizard schools that allows them to make more as needed.
People dont care for wizard feats. more most likely will be added in the rival school book.
As for me I actually do want more spell options to expand the range of situations that can be exploited to greater effect by the right spell. And those new spells might not even show up on a sorcerers radar if compared to their staples.
But people who dont care for prepared casting period should not consider playing a wizard. It has its own good points and weaknesses compared to spontaneous casting main in breadth of spell options across a whole campaign. Not valuing more than a handful of spells is the right kind of thinking for someone who fits in well with a spontaneous caster.
My favorite kind of caster normally is a sorcerer not a wizard but I recognize what wizards can do differently.
Thats actually a point of agreement for most people here. That wizard is not bad. Well some do think they are bad but not everyone no matter what we've all argued so far.
In the past Deriven Firelion you've expressed before that they are boring but as a legendary caster they are not weak. I agree with that mechanically. Thematically i like the idea of schools.Drain bonded item is a wizards strongest feature. Any 9th rank or lower spell prepared can just be recast. This is an extra top spell slot with only one restriction, the spell was slotted and already cast. May be boring but it is powerful.
Thesis are not all equal but some grant an already flexible base of a prepared caster more flexibility in how a wizard prepares each day.(and flexibility here meaning ability to set up differently each day with more spells to select from than spontaneous casters) you don't value this kind of flexibility because you feel its not necessary. Its a reasonable stance to have, but recognizing that it can have merit is not unreasonable.People think school curriculum are a straight jacket on the 4th slot. Easiest errata for that is to remove the fourth slot restriction of only slotting school spells.
People think theses should be something you can double dip same way druids can get order explorer? easiest fix is to add a feat allowing wizards to essentially order explorer with thesis. Use an appropriate level req for the feat as the balancing point.
People think focus spells are just too weak or are not great for the wizard? I'm sure new schools in rival schools will have something else to try. They made a structure in wizard schools that allows them to make more as needed.
People dont care for wizard feats. more most likely will be added in the rival school book.
As for me I actually do want more spell options to expand the range of situations that can be exploited to greater effect by the right spell. And those new spells might not even show up on a sorcerers radar if compared to their staples.
But...
Legendary Casting is Legendary Casting. Every main caster gets it. It's all the same DCs at the same levels with the same action cost for casting spells.
Each of the traditions are fairly equal in combat.
That's why the class features and feats are now more important than spells to create a quality caster.
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Thats actually a point of agreement for most people here. That wizard is not bad. Well some do think they are bad but not everyone no matter what we've all argued so far.
I'd say they function, but they're just worse off than every other casting class.
The wizard is roughly as good as the spells they prepare. Spells are good enough, so the wizard can be good enough. However, it just doesn't have anything besides spells—and it also has the most difficult and limited version of casting available inside the system.
To put it another way, all of wizard's eggs are in one basket—slotted spells. But other classes have eggs in that same basket and do other things, too. Those classes might even have bigger eggs in that basket than the wizard (like sorcerer, with sorcerous potency), while also having eggs in some other basket. Many have fewer eggs in the spell basket than wizard (like all the three slot prepared casters), but have their egg portfolio diversified into other non-spellslot features, like untamed form or hexes.
Even without bringing in my personal opinions on spontaneous vs prepared, the actual power of the arcane spell list relative to the power budget it's given in design, and other such things... the wizard is too invested in things other classes do as well or better. It needs to do something unique to have a meaningful niche.
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I don't think it's entirely accurate to say the Wizard is limited to just spells, because that ignores their arcane thesis, which is meant to be central to their power expression. Often, that thesis will hinge on their slotted spells, but that is a net improvement to their slotted spellcasting that is, or at least could be, fun and meaningful.
I also think there is another fairly obvious double standard at play here: we don't criticize the Sorcerer for putting all of their eggs in one basket, yet most of their power is concentrated around slot spellcasting too, whether it's sorcerous potency working only with slot spells or blood magic piling even more power onto some of those slot spells. The Imperial Sorcerer, seemingly everyone's favorite on this thread, is even more dependent on slot spells than other bloodlines, because their initial bloodline spell is a spellshape (though interestingly, it lacks the spellshape trait and lets you do other things before casting the affected spell). Clearly, putting all of one's eggs into the slot spell basket is not a problem by itself, because the same people criticizing the Wizard for it are waxing lyrical about the Imperial Sorcerer, a class that does it to an even greater extent. The key difference is, the Imperial Sorcerer manages to feel very strong in ways that are easy to appreciate, and the Wizard doesn't.
Thus, I don't think the solution to the Wizard here needs to be to pull them away from slot spellcasting, because we already have an example of a spell slot-centric class that does that well. Rather, I think the problem is more that the Wizard's features generally feel limited or limiting, whereas the Sorcerer's features mostly serve to make them feel more powerful, with even their limitation feature not feeling like that much of a restriction (i.e. the sorcerous gift spells you're forced to take). Beyond how much more restrictive spellbook-based spell preparation is over spontaneous casting in the middle of the adventuring day, the Wizard's fourth slot is overly limited by their curriculum, which is itself extremely arbitrary and limited in what spells it includes, and their arcane thesis, which is meant to let them bend the rules of magic in some form, is ultimately quite tame. It's not that the Wizard has no redeeming features, because spell preparation has a lot of distinct benefits and their arcane thesis can be genuinely fun to use, it's just that those features could use a significant boost, and before even going into buffing the class (which I think ought to happen), there's a lot of room in my opinion to reallocate the Wizard's existing power in such a way that it feels much better to use. Specifically:
So yeah, I do think there's a Wizard to be had in 2e that remains a spellbook-restricted, spell-slot focused prepared spellcaster, yet feels really good to play. Perhaps I'm wrong, but in all cases I'm genuinely curious to know what others actually like about the Wizard: there's a lot of complaining, but so far I've yet to see anyone express anything they truly enjoy about the class or expect from it: is it the theme, the mechanics, or both? Is it just the name "Wizard"? If the mechanics, which mechanics on the class do people like?
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Why not go whole hog? Simple enough for Paizo to add a single sentence under the Experimental Spellshaping thesis that reads "For you, spellshape feats are a free action, but you can only add one to each spell."
That's not a whole-class fix by any means, but a sub-class fix that lets the player use the sub-classes' specialty in practically every scene of play. Which I thnk is what a lot of players want: to use their specialties on a regular basis. If you're playing an Xer, you want to regularly do X.
It would actually be even simpler; RAW, you can only apply one spellshape at a time to a spell, because doing anything other than Casting the Spell after the spellshape wastes the spellshape action, whether single or free. I 100% endorse the idea of having Experimental Spellshaping let you cast spellshape single actions as free actions from level 1, and that I think would lead to a radically different mentality for a spellshaping Wizard, as they'd be pushed to constantly think about how to alter their spells, and not just which spells to cast.
And on that note, I think it would be quite interesting to have a high-level spellshape feat that would let you combine the effects of two different spellshapes at once. This could even be a feat exclusive to the Experimental Spellshaping thesis, so that your choice of subclass could start rewarding you with unique feats that'd build on its theme and functionality.
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I really love wizards, they're my favorite class in roughly every game that allows you to play one, which is why I'm so annoyed by the rough patch the class is in right now. If I were not so in love with them, I would shrug it off more easily.
Some people quoted the devs on this, saying some power budget went into prepared spellcasting (which was supposed to be better at the start of PF2E) and some budget in the arcane spell list (which was supposed to be the best and broadest list at the start of PF2E).
After the remaster and all those splat books, I think it's fair to say that prepared spellcasting isn't an advantage anymore. Some like me think it's way less powerful than spontaneous spellcasting, others think it's different but as powerful, but nobody advocates that it's MORE powerful, like it was supposed to be in the beginning.
Similarily, the arcane list is a great list - don't get me wrong - but not only isn't it exclusive to the wizard (hence all those comparisons with arcane sorcerer), it's hard to say whether it really is better than the others. Paizo did an awesome job at balancing spell lists and I saw a poll in this forum where they were pretty much all tied. Primal has less utility but got healing, Occult has less blasts but got better debuffs, Divine got heavily buffed and looks great, so arcane isn't the end all be all of spell lists.
Which is why I believe the wizard needs a buff.
In my first post, I said we give the wizard all thesis except familiar (so as not to step on the witche's toes). I think it's a step in the right direction, giving the wizard what he needs most: options.
Options to use metamagic, options to turn his slots into higher level ones through Spell Blending, options to turn them into lower level utility through Staff Nexus, options to change them on the fly through Spell Substitution.
The sorcerer still would be more powerful in a fight - dealing more damage, imposing more status penalties, being better at Bon Mot or Intimidation, freely casting from all his slots - but the wizard would at least get more freedom, more options and more utility.
Make it a 4-slot caster no strings attached, give them better feats, and I think we'll be in a good spot.
..Just so I can better understand your stance.
Why specifically giving all thesises and removing the limit of the 4th slot as opposed to give more meaningful support to each thesis?Would this not be a reduction of meaningful character options lead to wizards being more samey while also functioning as a massive powerboost to a class that already experiences great freedom in how they handle their spells as unlike the arcane sorcerer, The wizard can prepare any options known to them even on non-combat days.
Do you see why this change could be a detriment to other players and tables?
Roughly, Pathfinder characters are facing two different challenges in the course of a game: fights, and out of combat action.
Fights include, well, everything that's turn-based, while OOC includes stealth, climbing a cliff, chatting the barmaid, playing the lute, patching up wounds, setting up a camp or lying to the guard captain.
Some characters are good in the first, but have less options in the second (fighter, barbarian for instance). Some are good in the second, but less in the first (investigator, alchemist). Some are surprisingly good in both (rogue, remastered swashbuckler).
By this metric, the sorcerer is better than the wizard in a fight, so the wizard should be better in OOC action. Giving him Spell Substitution for free would help boost his utility, while giving him Spell Blending would give him some much needed oomph. Staff Nexus and Metamagic are nice ribbons, not very powerful but expanding his options.
As for the 4 spell slots, there's been a lot of talk on this thread about how the different thesis really limit the wizard - being forced to put a blast spell in your lvl 1 slot is akin to not even having this slot to begin with.
I would personally be massively against this. It's one thing to have feats that let you pinch certain aspects of other subclasses for your main class while still not giving you full access (like the druid Order Explorer feat) but entirely another to just functionally have no subclasses at all and smush all of those features together at level 1.I would much prefer "more options" to be "your choice of thesis and spell school gives you more options and choices to make as you level up" rather than "here's 500 options at level 1, but you have no choices you just get them all".
I agree, that's why you would get new options to choose from, to replace what would be baked into the chassis.
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I think it's worth pausing for just a moment to consider what having four arcane theses at once would even represent: even now, the Wizard has a significantly above-average number of class features to consider, whether it's arcane bond, their spellbook, their arcane school, or their one arcane thesis. Smashing four subclasses together into the core class would in my opinion not only massively overpower the Wizard, it'd render them monstrously overcomplicated and even less accessible.
In addition to the above, I also simply don't think it would actually address the problem: we have plenty of accounts on this very thread of certain theses just not feeling terribly good, Experimental Spellshaping most of all. Gaining two extra spellshape feats as part of your goodness-knows-how-many core class features isn't going to make those spellshapes more interesting, and it's not going to make the Wizard feel all that much better at spellshaping either. Similarly, getting Spell Substitution for free, while certainly a much greater boon, doesn't inherently address how much more convenient the thesis would be if you could swap out a spell and Refocus at the same time. There's room to make each of these theses much stronger on an individual basis, but that's not going to be possible if the Wizard gets all of them at once, not without making the class even more overtuned and overloaded than they'd already be at that stage.
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I think it might help some of the discussion if we framed it a bit better.
I think the Wizard is a bad class.
I do not think the Wizard is a bad class. I think the Wizard is a bad class.
In that it the Wizard is structurally poor and mechanically subpar for the enviorment it finds itself in.
The floor of the Wizard is that of a legendary spellcaster, and has all the power and function of a legendardy spellcaster. They are not bad at casting spells, because they largely can't be bad at casting spells by the nature and structure of the game. This means they are mechanically serviceable and don't have any blockers (unlike, for example, early Alchemists who had literal blockers to be able to do what they were intended to do).
If all you wish from the Wizard is someone who can cast spells, then they check that box. Your choice of Wizard for that function will be as valid and fulflling as any other full caster you might wish to choose.
But that's not a class.
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I mean, I do think a lot of the discourse that's happened on this thread confirms what Michael Sayre said: a lot of people want a Wizard in name only, nothing more. It's not about liking any of the defining traits of the Wizard in PF2e or wanting to do more with them (and notice how the loudest complainers all appear unable to cite even a single concrete mechanic they like about the Wizard), it's about wanting to play an entirely different class that just so happens to be called the Wizard. If Paizo had called the Imperial Sorcerer a Wizard, a lot of players complaining on this thread would probably be happy.
Personally, though, I'm in the camp of people who like the Wizard and what the class is about in 2e, and would much prefer to build upon their foundations than tear the class down, much less change them into some unholy amalgam of Fighter and Sorcerer with three extra subclasses thrown on top. I think a crucial aspect of the Wizard that's being missed is that it's not just about the class being underpowered, though there's a bit of that, it's that the class's power is allocated in a way that doesn't make them feel all that unique or strong. It shouldn't just be about adding more stuff on top, it should be like you said, NorrKnekten, and about taking out stuff that isn't working well to make room for more impactful class features. I'd quite like for each arcane thesis to be supercharged into something truly revolutionary, and I think there'd be much more room for that on a three-slot caster, rather than a four-slot caster. That kind of approach, in my opinion, would be more likely to satisfy than just giving the Wizard three more subclasses for free.