As an aside, I never played an alchemist so it might be a stupid question, but I don't understand the point for a chirurgeon of being able to use versatile vials as healing:
Your versatile vials can be used to heal a living creature a number of Hit Points equal to the vial’s initial damage. A creature can drink the vial for this benefit, or you can throw the vial at a willing creature within 20 feet as an Interact action to heal that creatureThat's all well and good, but a versatile vial at lvl 4 will heal 2d6, and 3d6 at lvl 12.
Meanwhile, the same alchemist can use quick alchemy to turn a vial into a 3d6+6 heal at lvl 5 and a 7d6+18 at lvl 13.
So, sure, you use one action less before healing - but isn't the healing really tiny ? I mean, 3d6 at lvl 12 is on average less than 10% of someone's life.
The Quick Vials can be used for that FV function with 0 VV cost.
In theory, that's supposed to be a valid option. Because QV's can't use Additives, and are only even elixirs when fed w/ reach, the special FV uses are some of, if not the very worst chassis actions in the pf2 system. Muta or Tox might have it even worse than Chir though, up to interpretation.
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One of the reasons it's rather obvious that PC2 is a rush / hatchet job is that those FV uses do not make any sense. For Chir's specifically, everyone knows healing and damage scale with different math, but Chir's healing just uses the bomb damage. Ergo, it's blatantly an afterthought of a feature that's not balanced. (but it did take the Perpetual infinite items away from the class)
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I did have a chance where we shut the door on a room of foes halfway into a fight, so PCs were damaged & we had a free turn to do whatever. I dropped my spear and did a double brew to make 2 freebies, then spent the other 2A using the ranged free Chir healing, first time I ever used that healing in "combat".
I immediately regretted it, and wished I had done something else, even R1 Grease on the floor, or draw and shake the Bag of Cats.
The impact of 2d6 really is that absurdly low, and I didn't have the reach to even get the INT as temp HP bonus from that other Chir feature.
The feature is so bad, that even when you are completely separated from foes, you'll likely have other actions that easily take priority over the free healing.
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No, the High DC at level 4 is 21 (20 at level 3). And High DC is what you generally face, spellcasters often even get closer to Extreme DC.
As pointed above, Caster Enemies usually use at least the High DC for their abilities. For their more signature abilities that often come with the debilitating effects, they sometimes even use the Extreme DC.Your points are well taken; however, it doesn't change my point. It was claimed:
So, in 90% of the cases, the Item level of the specific elixirs requires you to roll nat20s to counteract.
This is absolutely not the case.
All Easytools Monsters isn't quite as comprehensive as it once was, but it's still a great starting point for most general trends. The Modal (or most common) Spell DC per Creature Level matches the High DC from GM Core. So, add +2 to all my numbers from my previous post.
Rolls of 11+ or 14+ are not the same as needing a Nat 20 90% of the time. Should Extreme DCs come into play, 15-16+, or 19-20. Still not Nat 20 90% of the time, especially as the Extreme DCs aren't supposed to be common until L15+... and even then, they're not especially common if All Easytools can be believed.
Now, is the capability provided by the Invigorating Elixir feat superior? Absolutely, as it should be. Investing three (possibly four, if you get both versions of Improved Invigorating Elixir) Class Feats should be considerably more potent than baseline Alchemical Items.
Still, having capability of removing conditions, even on a roll of 14+, basically for free... this is not a bad thing, in my opinion. Not something to be using on a regular basis, but good to have in the toolkit in case of emergency.
Back in the Core Rulebook era, my Bomber got hit with a Clumsy 2 condition, with a duration of 1 minute. Basically, a really annoying full fight Debuff. So I took a chance, spent a Batch on a Sinew-Shock Serum... and it worked. Made all the difference in that fight, and played really well into my Class Fantasy for Alchemist... the right tool, at the right time, always.
On a different topic...
Yeah, the healing from a Versatile Vial is completely underwhelming, even if it can be Ranged with no chance of missing. Only real use case, in Encounter Mode, is if you need to stabilize someone and you're out of better options.
Even out of Encounter Mode, adding 1 or 2 d6 to your Treat Wounds routine is pretty meh.
The only point where it gets interesting, is when Chirurgeons get their Advanced Vial ability at 11th.
Being able to heal to half at a rate of 40d6 hp (avg 140) per minute, for free, has a use case. I've been in situations where time between encounters is at a premium. Going to half for no resources that quickly... there've been times I would've liked that. At 12th level, with Greater VVs, it goes up to 60d6 per minute, or averaging 210.
Go to half with VVs, then throw in a Soothing Tonic to add in 50 hp over half in a just another minute... that's a lot of healing in a very short period of time.
Definitely not your usual set of circumstances, but I still find it interesting that the capacity is there.
TBH, the "living vending machine" PC idea is absolutely perfect for Alchemist due to this. No one else in the system has that kind of constant access to that many possible rabbits-in-hats, and that theming perfectly emphasizes the very real fun of pulling just the right option out of a huge grab-bag like that.
Disregarding the entire category of bombs out of hand is silly and counterproductive.
I particularly like the idea of throwing out gacha balls with plastic toys in them that become big monsters.
"How did that vending machine get way up in that tree?"
"A roc." XD
On a different topic...
Yeah, the healing from a Versatile Vial is completely underwhelming, even if it can be Ranged with no chance of missing. Only real use case, in Encounter Mode, is if you need to stabilize someone and you're out of better options.
Even out of Encounter Mode, adding 1 or 2 d6 to your Treat Wounds routine is pretty meh.
The only point where it gets interesting, is when Chirurgeons get their Advanced Vial ability at 11th.
Being able to heal to half at a rate of 40d6 hp (avg 140) per minute, for free, has a use case. I've been in situations where time between encounters is at a premium. Going to half for no resources that quickly... there've been times I would've liked that. At 12th level, with Greater VVs, it goes up to 60d6 per minute, or averaging 210.
Go to half with VVs, then throw in a Soothing Tonic to add in 50 hp over half in a just another minute... that's a lot of healing in a very short period of time.
Definitely not your usual set of circumstances, but I still find it interesting that the capacity is there.
And that stacks with any other healers in the party who, if they heal quickly can choose to withhold until after your free healing, or if they heal in ten minute blocks, apply the effects a the end of the time period after your free healing. Topping people off has never been easier.
The only reason the combo it isn't more powerful is because it's pretty easy to top off a party at high level play already.
Thanks for the detailed answer !
You are assuming that you try to counteract something of the level exactly when you get the item or lower.
No, I'm looking at the Counteract Level of an at-level threat over the course of those four levels.
Since Elixirs have a 4-6 level gap in between them (4, 8, 12, 18), you more often than not, require a critical success to counteract effects using the elixirs, which means a nat 20.
How do you figure?
A simple success handles a Counteract Level of up to your Counteract Level +1, which you don't seem to be taking into account. A Critical Success is necessary for a Counteract Level of +2 or +3.
Using the levels provided by the OP as a comparisson, at level 11, your rank 4 counteract, to counteract something of even equal level, let alone a higher level threat, will need a nat 20 to succeed.
Sure, in the very very slight chance that you happen upon the danger at the exact level you get the recipe, the odds are better, but even 1 level afterwards, your chances go from "unlikely but possible" to "need a nat 20".
As I've written before, there are exactly five levels, out of twenty, where you end up needing a Nat 20 to handle an at-level effect. With those Elixirs, anyways. Level 11, one of the problem ones, is one where Contagion Metabolizer is actually at its best, for example.
So, against an at-level effect, you run into serious problems three levels after you pick up the formula, not one. The worst is, as previously mentioned, Greater, as it reaches that point three levels before Major lands at level 18.
If I get a Lesser at L4, I can expect my odds to decrease along the way... the roll needed will be somewhere between 12 to 16 at High DC from Character Levels 4-6. But it's still not a mandatory Nat 20. That's Character Level 7, with things resetting with Moderate at L8.
Where I find Supreme Invigorating Elixir fascinating is that it actually increases your Counteract Level by 1. That's strong. To Counteract an at-level effect on a failure? Very nice. Counteract a (normal) CL+2 on a simple success? That can handle a Char Level +4 Boss.
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As I've written before, there are exactly five levels, out of twenty, where you end up needing a Nat 20 to handle an at-level effect.
I second Shroudb. The effects you remove are more often than not inflicted by higher level creatures.
First, because casters are very often bosses. I've never seen a "Lich henchman", always Lich bosses.Second, because Incapacitation effects are among the most devastating effects as you will be out of the fight even on a failure to the save. And they are at least of your level.
Third, because outside Incapacitation effects really crippling effects happen on a critical failure. And against normal mooks critical failure only happens on a nat 1 when against a boss or an extreme DC enemy it happens 3, 4, 5 times more often.
And finally because higher level spells/effects tend to inflict nastier Conditions so you can sometimes choose to ignore a critical failure to a low level effect but not one to a high level effect.
That's why we speak about nat 20s. They are not a rare occurence when you use the Alchemical Items brought by Trip.
And while the "90%" brought by Shroudb are an exageration, even 30% chance to succeed only on a nat 20 is enough to completely disgust you from these items. I personally dislike to fail a check on a 19 on the dice. And I don't even speak of the rare cases where even a nat 20 is a failure.
There's also a second important factor: You won't remove conditions often. In general, you start removing them when they are really debilitating. Succeeding at it will have a lot of impact. Obviously because having a character back to the fight is extremely impactful, TPKs happen typically when your Barbarian gets Dominated or your Cleric Stunned. But also because you'll bring back a player into the fight (as I don't know many people who like to wait for the end of the Paralysis duration). So the difference between 14+ and 11+ is massive. An ability that you use when crap hits the fan needs to be reliable (at least as much as possible) as it's the moment where you need the most help.
Trying not to dogpile here, but SuperBidi & Shroudb are correct in that a soft "most" of those rare times you get a sticky & nasty debuff, it'll be from a +1, maybe a +2 foe. We have gotten them from on-level creatures before, but it's usually the story-beat inconvenience types, and one *could* keep going with the Drained 1.
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Besides Contagion Metabolizers and Blood Boosters (super underrated, you don't roll, they just work), most of the Alch list counteract items are very much *not* a combat thing imo. Those alch items are mostly gold savers and convenience / attrition remediation.
Because Alch items are now infinite out of combat, so long as you *can* cleanse, you can talk it over w/ your GM how to handle it.
Main 2 versions are:
"Player: I need a nat 20, and estimate it'll take X long for me to hit it."
"GM: Ehh that's a bit low, I'll give it to you for X + 30 min"
Ver 2:(table that likes to roll them dice)
"GM: Keep rolling d20 until you get the crit, and we'll tally the count and see how much sleep you lost last night cleansing that."
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Those items are still very nice to have, but I want to emphasize that I do not recommending using any RNG cleansers in combat, honestly even if a PC gets an incap effect, it's a toss up as to if it's a good idea to spend actions on the *chance* to remove it.
Even with the feats, your class DC will struggle like hell to have a good chance to cleanse when it matters most.
This means that abilities presumably designed to help you recover from a setback instead become absurdly swingy gambles, where the more important it is, the worse odds you have (thanks to danger level so often meaning PL +x).
And, again, these "PC just had an incap effect stick" situations are *rare* as hell, once or twice per campaign. And contextual as hell as well. Most of the time, the best response will be to finish the fight a PC down, but if they got incapped on opening, it's usually better to bag them and run, as being helpless is crazy bad even if the party as a whole is not at a super high risk of loosing the fight.
Even how your table handles hero points makes a huuuuge difference here.
Part of the reason why cleanser scrolls are so absurdly useful is because in theory you can even buy them above your normal casters level for a price the party can afford (and use hero points on the high-gp consumable for even more assurance when it matters most).
RNG?
@RD: Random number generator, a video game term. Random would have been enough.
Besides Contagion Metabolizers and Blood Boosters (super underrated, you don't roll, they just work), most of the Alch list counteract items are very much *not* a combat thing imo. Those alch items are mostly gold savers and convenience / attrition remediation.
At least we agree on something.
And, again, these "PC just had an incap effect stick" situations are *rare* as hell, once or twice per campaign.
Not at high level. There are quite some level 13+ enemies with debilitating effects on a critical failure (remember that even something as simple as Frightful Presence gives Frightened 4 on a critical miss). There are also many sticking Conditions like Drained that you will not be able to remove with the Alchemical Items and that you can remove with Invigorating Elixir.
And as Shroudb says, Invigorating Elixir comes with healing, so even on a failed check your actions are not completely wasted. And I'd also remind you that at level 12+ you get a +1 bonus to your level, effectively cleansing effects of your level (and even your level+1 at odd levels) on a failure, strongly reducing the "RNG factor".Most of the time, the best response will be to finish the fight a PC down, but if they got incapped on opening, it's usually better to bag them and run
It's not always possible. Controlled and Confused being obvious examples but critically failing at a save may come with other nasty effects preventing you from running away. Also, when you don't have any way of removing these effects finishing the fight is the best response. But when you have that luxury you may realize there are many situations where cleansing the effect is actually a very good solution.
Even with the feats, your class DC will struggle like hell to have a good chance to cleanse when it matters most.
With a Hero Point in case of failure, you should always be over 50% and most of the time closer to 75%. As we are speaking of dire situations, it's the good moment to use one of them.
Also, we are focused on debilitating effects but there are also situations where your main goal is to heal the Fighter and you get a free chance at removing their Sickened or Frightened Condition. This must not be handwaved, especially on a Chirurgeon.
Drained is an odd one, because if you know about it ahead of time, Energizing Pill is basically a silver bullet that makes it a non-issue, and if you don't know about it, you just take a day off and it removes itself (sans curse/etc). It's the definition of an inconvenience / story beat affliction.
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Because the very-bad effects happen on crit fail, prevention is easier all of the time. And not just hero points, but buffs, reactions, and other fortune effects all become more and more common PC tools as levels go up, alongside foes carrying these effects more commonly.
A lot of the time, you may "solve" or improve those "oh s~~+, they double crit failed" situations by KOing your ally.
It's a bit gouache, but uh, Death is actually a cure for a lot of things if you're worried about the corpse/PC running off.
Though most of the time rendering your ally helpless is a better idea. Petrify may or may not seem better than a knock out.
Drugs have a rule that the player is able to choose to fail them, which has the odd edge case where the player VS PC split matters, though it is super meta gamey.
Technically speaking, any Alchemist with Dreamtime Tea can force-feed a helpless Controlled ally just 2 doses, and that PC will be out for 10min. If a different PC is doing the restraining, you can Double Brew and make any unwillyly hostile ally safely sleep in a single turn. Might be way easier than getting the knockout, though also doable on Dying targets. (GM might make you roll for the force-feed even if Restrained is in effect)
(Alcohol takes 6 doses to reach KO, but is common and level 0)
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Getting back on topic, the unlimited annoyances tend to stick more *because* they are not worth a hero point to re-roll, while something as serious as Controlled tends to *only* happen on a double fortune crit fail.
I know of players who outright do not want to adventure if they don't have a hero point on standby because of how frankly, b~+&+~#@ the concept of a "save or die" roll is, and pf2 still has them.
Never Mind & Dominate are R6. Just knowing a single bad roll can/will end a PC is enough to completely change one's approach, and I totally agree that such spells hurt the game by existing as-is. Having a re-roll takes that instant death from possibly a 3ish/20 (.15ish) to .0225 ish.
The standby hero point / fortune effect is an absurd difference, and really kinda just f*ucks a lot of the player motivations/behaviors for the whole game, imo.
Yet at the same time, because those "save or die" rolls are so rare to even witness, I think most players don't consider those kinds of dangers for their prep /builds until they've been at a table and seen someone get burned by one.
And yeah, I think that type of player has the more healthy approach. Being once burned and twice shy is understandable, but can easily cause one to hurt their own fun.
Yep, I also think your "solutions", Trip, are only solutions around your table. Around mine, at least, Drained is no reason to stop, Energizing Pills are forbidden, druging an ally will not be accepted and you don't know the effect of an ability before rolling, so you can't choose to reroll depending on the effect.
And when you have an Alchemist cleanser you can choose not to reroll critical failures to saves, especially against lower level enemies, knowing that your Alchemist will remove them trivially. As such, you can save on HPs.