I am pretty sure that it shouldn't work, but can't really find a rule to prevent it, so I am looking for other opinions / guidance here:
Can one weapon represent multiple Ikons of an Exemplar? For example can a Shortbow be both an "Unfailing Bow" and a "Starshot"?
Of course when shifting Immanence, you have to select which of those is currently active and wouldn't be able to activate both effects at once, but you could use it to gain more flexibility. Starshot's abilites are only usefull if you have multiple enemies / a swarm, while Unfailing Bow is better against a single enemy (and doesn't hurt your friends with that pesky splash damage, either).
|
2 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
The actual description of an ikon says:
"You can focus this divine power through special items known as ikons. Ikons are items or bodily features intrinsically linked to you—sacred vessels forged from your divinity that are capable of conducting its power."
Which at least strongly implies that any particular object can only be one kind of ikon, regardless of how many it qualifies for.
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
It's a bit of a gray area; expect table variation.
Personally, I'd allow it for:
1) Combination weapons (different ikons for the melee and ranged uses);
2) A shield as the Mirrored Shield ikon and the shield boss or shield spikes (or the integrated blade of a klar, etc.) as a weapon ikon; and
3) Storing a different weapon ikon (such as a Titan's Breaker cruuk) in a Shadow Sheath.
And yes, the exemplar would have to shift immanence to switch between which ikon benefit is active.
It is an open question on if the same item can house multiple Ikons or if each Icon has to have a separate physical item.
I would probably allow it - with one clarification. (I believe this is already a rule.) What I would definitely not allow is trying to argue that since two Ikons are in the same item that they are both powered at the same time. They would not both be giving their passive benefits, and if you use Transcendence on one of them and send Immanence to the other Ikon in the same item, you cannot say that the Immanence is powering the Ikon just used instead.
That would still be a bit of a power buff compared to ruling that multiple Ikons in the same item are not allowed at all, so I can understand why some GMs would not allow it. For example, an Exemplar could be built to use two different Weapon Ikons in the same 2-hand weapon and use alternating Weapon Transcendence abilities each round. Without the multiple Ikon ruling, that could only be done using two 1-hand weapons instead of a 2-hand weapon.
It is pretty obvious that in the beginning any one icon will only have one immanence / transcendence ability, and you can select feats later on to enhance the same icon with the additional abilities. Given that this is linked to higher levels and feats I'd say that you cannot utilize the same icon for multiple immanence abilities as they would according to the rule all activate at the same time (which is linked to the higher level feats). It's the same as implements for a thaumaturge, a single object cannot represent multiple implements.
I don't think this is intended, no. The language around ikons seems to heavily imply they're all separate items. It's not super explicit but from reading over everything I don't think so. The language tends to use ikon and item interchangeably and really seems built assuming they're all separate
That said... it might not be a bad idea to allow this. As long as you don't fundamentally change how ikons work in general...
A) Running two weapon ikons is somewhat uniquely bad because you have to be holding them to activate their transcendence and wielding them to benefit from their immanence. This adds extra action cost to something that's just not super great to begin with.
B) There are a handful of weapon ikons with very situational effects, and being able to more easily have access to a general use option would make them a bit less bad.
Though on the other hand, this would make it somewhat easier to chain weapon ikon effects, since you don't have to worry about hand economy. You can already do this with dual wielding or unarmed ikons, but running it this way would definitely make it a bit easier.
UnforcedError wrote: Given that this is linked to higher levels and feats I'd say that you cannot utilize the same icon for multiple immanence abilities as they would according to the rule all activate at the same time (which is linked to the higher level feats). I'm not sure that's really a problem. The feats are tied to ikons, so even if we allow one item to contain multiple ikons, the feat would only acitvate if the spark was assigned correctly.
Squiggit wrote:
UnforcedError wrote: Given that this is linked to higher levels and feats I'd say that you cannot utilize the same icon for multiple immanence abilities as they would according to the rule all activate at the same time (which is linked to the higher level feats). I'm not sure that's really a problem. The feats are tied to ikons, so even if we allow one item to contain multiple ikons, the feat would only acitvate if the spark was assigned correctly.
The problem is it would confuse the vast majority of the players. If you say, hey it's legal to select three weapon icons for a single greatsword (say one in the blade, one in the hilt, one in the handle) it would very quickly come to new players asking whether they could have the three immanence abilities active all the time, as the text says:
Quote:
If your ikon has multiple immanence abilities, you gain all of them whenever the ikon is empowered.
However, the additional abilities are related to additional feats.
It's much better to have a clear ruling on this and disallow an object containing multiple icons. In fact, in the playtest version you could only select one weapon icon, the other two had to be body and item.
UnforcedError wrote: Squiggit wrote:
UnforcedError wrote: Given that this is linked to higher levels and feats I'd say that you cannot utilize the same icon for multiple immanence abilities as they would according to the rule all activate at the same time (which is linked to the higher level feats). I'm not sure that's really a problem. The feats are tied to ikons, so even if we allow one item to contain multiple ikons, the feat would only acitvate if the spark was assigned correctly.
The problem is it would confuse the vast majority of the players. If you say, hey it's legal to select three weapon icons for a single greatsword (say one in the blade, one in the hilt, one in the handle) it would very quickly come to new players asking whether they could have the three immanence abilities active all the time Well, say to new players 'No'. It's already extremely strained reading to allow several icons in one item. I absolutely won't allow it. But then extending that to make multiple icons active at one time can't be argued in good faith at all. Icons are distinct features in a list, "Each ikon has both a passive immanence effect and an active transcendence effect. Both of these effects require your divine spark to be in the item. ... You shift your power, filling one of your ikons with your divine spark. ... granting you that ikon’s immanence effects for as long as your divine spark is empowering it." If players are confused you just explain what 'singular' means.
And the game still doesn't really need to say 'one icon - one item', those are enough in my opinion: "You can focus this divine power through special items known as ikons. Ikons are items or bodily features intrinsically linked to you—sacred vessels forged from your divinity that are capable of conducting its power. Select three ikons from the list" and "Weapon and worn ikons are tied to items of power. When you select one, you gain a non-magical, level-0 item of your choice that matches its usage entry." Again, icons are unambiguously distinct features in a list, you can't blend them together (unless there's a feat explicitly for that...)
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
No, which is why I think it should be clarified in the errata. Add the rule one object = one ikon.
Squiggit wrote: B) There are a handful of weapon ikons with very situational effects, and being able to more easily have access to a general use option would make them a bit less bad.
That was exactly what I wanted to use the idea for. In most cases, Starshot is just bad - Splash Damage more often hits allies than enemies, and the area is too small and the damage doesn't really scale well, so even the Transcendence Ability is kind of bad.
But as an additional OPTION to use your bow for that in the few situations where it IS useful would have been nice.
The character is for PFS, so I will just go with the easy route of not setting myself up for table variation.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
If you want to occasionally do splash damage with a bow, then invest in some elemental ammunition and avoid the whole RAW vs RAI debate with ikons.
Recent threads in Rules Discussion
|
