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A huge disclaimer: These are initial impressions, subject to change with actual play! I'm fallible, and can misevaluate and misunderstand things here.
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To begin with, I'm going to discuss a lot of class options and features while showing how I think the class isn't really what I expected. The class seemed pitched as a class that wanted to create resources and consume them for a backloaded payoff. However, in practice, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'll examine create thrall itself, and then the thrall spenders, and hopefully it'll be more obvious why.
Firstly, create thrall itself is actually quite strong, particularly as you gain proficiency. It does the following:
• does a small amount of damage
• blocks movement in certain directions and therefore forces enemies to use tumble through to go in those directions, which basically reduces their speed once if enough of them are summoned
• provides flanking
• possibly makes enemies waste actions trying to deny you resources, or promotes inefficient AoE
• grants whatever thrall enhancement there is, which is of varying value
• summons multiple thralls at once—with no limit on total thralls?—based on your proficiency, both things I would not have personally expected in conjunction with the above. This seems odd for two reasons: one, it means that thralls spent do not have a direct equivalency to actions spent, and two, it means that a necromancer can actually be absurdly disruptive in small 4x4 or 5x4 rooms just by summoning 6 thralls in a turn once they have expert proficiency.
Getting all of this for a single action on a turn you can also cast a spell is a bit surprising; the main limitation on it is the 30ft range. This is a single action that is probably worth more than most other "third actions" in the game. This is technically a setup action, in that it gives you a resource you intend to spend later, but when you compare it to a setup action like recharging spellstrike it starts to look absurd.
Is paizo expecting thralls to be targeted and killed fairly often, either by incidental AoE or MAP -10 autohits? That's the only way I can imagine this feeling in-line. However, that seems like it could be a pretty frustrating bit of table variance to both balance around and ask a player to deal with. Classes with wide degrees of efficacy depending on the GMing style are generally less fun. Without playing both, it'd be hard to know which I'd like more. But I might be happier with a resource that enemies could interact with less that was also more limited in the amount of thralls available. Right now, spenders that you don't want to use on the same turn as create thrall (cough Bone Spear cough) are way worse than they appear because they can be consistently denied by MAP -10 attacks and incidental AoE. Yeah, you can not use the attack on Create Thrall, but that makes it a way worse action.
Secondly, the focus spells that sacrifice thralls... aren't as strong as I would've expected. They're mostly decent, with one outlier; but they don't look that much stronger than comparable focus spells.
• Life Tap
This just seems bad. You don't heal that much off drained, and it isn't that much damage either. It sets up for fort save spells and grappling, sure, but that's a lot of setup.
• Bone Spear
It's in the damage range of amped IW, but consumes both a focus point and a thrall. (Technically, Bone Spear can attempt to hit one more target than amped IW, but getting 3 targets in a 15ft line is... unrealistic. ) It also isn't worth using on the same turn as create thrall, because create thrall gives MAP, unless you forgo the attack and therefore some of its action efficiency. So you get three choices: either use it as a three action spell, effectively (create thrall with no attack>bone spear), use bone spear at -5 (ew), or risk not being able to use bone spear (turn 1 create thrall, turn 2 bone spear). This is way worse than it looks.
• Necrotic Bomb
This looks okay. The damage range is much more in line with +2d6 spells, which is about 1d6 better than many other AoE focus spells. The 10ft emanation is somewhat inconvenient, though, especially if you summoned a thrall to get flanking... and the 10ft emanation is slightly too small for it to provide AoE damage that scales later into the game. I think it's probably fine, but I wouldn't consider it exciting. It's also worth comparing to Bony Barrage (which... is okay) and Sorc Dragon Breath (which it will be slightly ahead of in damage exchange for having a smaller AoE, which doesn't really feel in line with the setup cost).
• Muscle Barrier
Honestly, I wasn't sure about it at first, but the more I look at it, the stronger it seems. It actually gives an absurd amount of temp HP. I think this spell is probably at its strongest when you first get it, as the buffer aspect becomes less relevant as the game becomes less lethal outside of L1-4. Even after that, though, it'll remain VERY GOOD. It's incredibly competent combat healing spell that beats out every other focus spell for combat healing in its level range, blasting cornucopia to bits. This might actually be the strongest thing in the entire kit.
The more I think about this, the more I have concerns about how its strength influences the rest of the kit.
• Bony Barrage
It's a cone that's online earlier than Sorc Dragon Breath (a positive) and doesn't originate from your square (also a positive). But it deals only slightly better damage initially than Dragon Breath, and then begins to scale worse in exchange for giving a status bonus to AC if you boom a second thrall (which is cool, admittedly, but probably not the reason I want to do a cone AoE). This seems fair for 2 thralls and 2 actions... but doesn't stand out either. Without the status bonus to AC, it doesn't feel very good.
• Zombie Horde
This seems like it takes a long time to produce value, damage wise; most of the strength is in creating mobile difficult terrain. That's... okay, but not something I'm itching to spend two actions and a thrall on, especially when creatures aren't even damaged by it until the start of their turns and sustaining it competes with Create Thrall and so on. Consuming thralls to increase the area also isn't that great.
• Flesh Tsunami
When it works, it's strong in a weirdly uninspiring way, because greater difficult terrain is powerful on its own and having your speed slowed inside it can make you nearly immobilized. This strength is only relevant as long as your opponents don't have special forms of movement, though, and it's available at level 16. I'd need to actually check how many opponents only have standard ground movement at this level to give proper feedback on the ability, but it's something I'd have flagged as a concern.
Third, the non-focus options for sacrificing thralls don't seem particularly great either.
• Consume Thrall
Fair enough, one thrall for 1 FP. Seems more useful early on in your career, when you have fewer focus points. Also speeds FP regen out of combat if you don't mind it being on cooldown.
• Reach of the Dead
It has no action type listed, so I have a hard time judging it. If it costs 1A, it's... okay? Probably not that great compared to just moving. If it's a free action, that's pretty cool. I'm expecting 1A, though.
• Body Shield
Not inspiring, but also good when compared to carrying an actual shield on action-intensive class like this—especially after you're expert and can place multiple thralls at once. Competes with other useful reactions, though.
• Draining Strike
Has a weird interaction with Create Thrall increasing your MAP and Create Thrall being such a strong third action. Plus up to 3d4 on a strike isn't bad, and you only destroy thralls on hit, so that's okay; also works with ranged weapons if you pick them up. Not too big on the heal, which doesn't feel that relevant.
This doesn't impress me at first glance, but I'm also not really sure how I feel about this string of pseudo-martial feats anyways. Are they here for people to grab with archetyping?
• Bone Burst
Hey, funny not-reactive strike. Not a ton of damage—worse than a typical reactive strike—and you have other uses for your reaction, but it's easier to proc than reactive strike in the longterm because you can have out multiple thralls.
• Reclaim Power
Did anyone bother to compare this to Muscle Barrier? Yeah. This doesn't cost a focus point. But still.
• Osteo Armaments
Part of the weird semi-martial Necromancer feats. Still don't know how I feel about them in general, and it's hard to evaluate thrall-for-decaying-rune without that context.
• Desperate Surge
This doesn't strike me as particularly good to begin with, so I don't want to recharge it by striking a thrall (and increasing my MAP!) either. Leave maneuvers to people with Athletics.
• L12 Subclass Passive Feats
None strike me as particularly strong. Resist all/(half your level) for a round after destroying a thrall isn't bad but isn't great; increasing a +10 status bonus to speed to +20 strikes me as overkill. Vital Conduit at least forces saves for a nasty status effect, but it's on adjacent enemies and that's probably not your jam unless you're the reaper weapon melee necromancer. They're all free real estate, though, so it's hard to call them bad.
If you've noticed something throughout this analysis, it's that damaging focus spell spenders generally don't exceed the power of a 2A slotted spell heightened from second or third level and are often a little bit below it. (Muscle Barrier is a huge exception here.) Likewise, spenders that don't cost FP seem a bit weak for something that feels like it costs a resource, especially in comparison to spenders that do. (Reclaim Power illustrates this a bit too well.) This is in spite of their setup.
Furthermore, Create Thrall is actually no slouch, and is in fact strangely powerful in enclosed spaces. It's arguably one of the best third actions I've seen in the system, even if its value is strongly dependent on how and how much your GM interacts with the thralls.
So, where's this "backloaded" gameplay loop? For the most part, there isn't much backloading, and that doesn't appear to be the intended class design. If it is, they definitely missed the mark. Instead, they seem to have settled on making Create Thrall strong and worth using on its own merits, then just having the class use what it gets from performing an already-good action.
I'm not sure how I feel about this without a lot of play, but my first impression is it takes away a lot of what I'd expected would be unique about the class. I understand why they did it, though.
-Backloading risks having your abilities come out too slowly and not affecting a fight properly. Making create thrall good mitigates this.
-And if enemies can destroy thralls easily, your setup button often risks giving no value at all. Making create thrall good mitigates this.
-The designers seem wary of upsetting the apple cart and really loading 3A worth of spell damage into 2A on an occult caster that has some normal spells and also has a lot of renewable resources. This is kind of fair, since "renewable blasting" does encroach on kineticist's space somewhat and kineticist has also laid out a template for about where renewable spell-like damage should sit.
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• Bonespeaker
Insanely useful. However... might need to specify what does and doesn't have a skeleton.
• Reaper Weapon Familiarity
It's flavorful, but I'm not quite seeing the vision. Maybe good for some archetyped builds (both Necromancer with x archetypes, and y class with Necromancer archetype)?
Actually, I guess this is just the ability to upgrade the good old "caster attacks with a crossbow or whatever for their third action for some damage and it works sometimes" into "caster attacks with a big scary weapon in melee with their third action for some damage." You're d8, so fair enough. I don't much like that it conflicts with create thrall, though.
Also has the same clarity issue as other similar feats that are really just "you can attack a little better as a situational third action." These look like build-around feats, but they really, really, REALLY aren't.
• Conglomerate of Limbs
This is good and feels bad because the majority of its power is loaded into being a 40 HP damage sponge that takes up four EDIT: WAIT NINE, GOOD GOD squares. I would maybe reflavor this to make it clearer that the main benefit is the body and not the grapple attempts.
• Lifesense
Fair. Not something I'll personally take outside of specific campaigns, but fits the class and can be worth taking.
• Quicken
Not seeing an action cost or the daily limit, here. Assuming it's 1/day like usual, it's... fine. I honestly don't like quicken that much in 2E because 1/day means the benefit is so situational, even if it's strong on that one turn. Helpful to free up a movement action, I guess.
• Necrotic Focus
Usual "fast refocus." I prefer these built into the chassis, personally.
• Recurring Nightmare
...I honestly can't tell. It strikes me as weaker than Create Thrall in many situations and costs a focus point, but it also gives you a free action thrall for the rest of the combat in conjunction with the feat that gives you a free sustain. That combo alone could be worthwhile, though you probably also have spells you'd like to be sustaining at this level.
• Skeletal Lancers
Most of the power here is in getting five thralls for 1A with a 60ft range and being able to move them. The piercing damage is a cute bonus. It's alright for that.
• Desperate Revival
Just have Muscle Barrier up before combat instead c:
That's an oversimplification, but I would prefer to keep things from going wrong in the first place than pick up a niche reaction for when things go wrong on an already reaction-heavy class.
• Effortless Concentration
Yeah, it's good. Always is.
• Bind Heroic Spirit
Oh damn, I can use my scythe better now! ...At level 18...
I feel like this would go over much better as a lower level focus spell that gave a scaling +1/2/3 status bonus to attack rolls with heightening, and added the "get a thrall on every hit and +3 status bonus on saves" at Heighten 9th. Maybe you could get a thrall on your first hit with the spell active at heighten 6th, as well. This would help make Reaper Weapon Familiarity feel better.
• Ectoplasmic Aura
Free "fort save or no reactions" forever? That's good, even if I'm still gonna cast roaring applause.
• L20 feats
No strong opinions atm. They're capstones.
===
• Is "destroyed" a keyword, here? This is important for Flesh Magician. It's unclear if you get difficult terrain whenever a thrall dies, or only if you sacrifice the thrall.
• Is it intentional that there's no thrall limit?
• Can thralls be critically hit? I'm guessing not, since they have no AC... but this has strong implications for the action economy of trying to kill the larger ones. It's also a really odd place for them to have power.
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Honestly? Cool class. I can't tell you whether it's weak or not, but it seems interesting enough, and there's decent flavor. I want to try playing one for real and see how it turns out, so that's a success.
Positives:
• MtG Black gameplay
• I can have a scythe
• 8 HP class, so being close isn't as miserable. Maybe psychic will become 8 HP...
Concerns:
• GM-dependent power, because GMs will interact with thralls differently and that impacts the class's play a lot. It could feel absurd at one table and much more in line at another.
• Cramped action economy. Create Thrall competes with moving and only has 30ft range. This class may end up wanting haste as badly as magus. A reaction to get a thrall on death, free action sustain, and 1/day quicken can only do so much, especially when most of those come online late. There's a world where they ultimately have too much difficulty setting up while keeping thralls alive.
• I can have a scythe... but it's not well-supported and is actually just there for third action damage
• Most of the class's power is "invisible." This isn't a friendly class and you're unlikely to understand what's strong about a lot of these options without help. A reflavor pass on many of these focus spells could help emphasize Necromancer's area control and make the class more intuitive to play.
• Prepared spellcasting is difficult to begin with in this system, and prepared casting with only two slots sounds like a nightmare. I'm worried the casting side of the class is going to underperform unless you only prepare generic, always-useful spells. Your class options are good enough that this isn't as much of an issue as it could be, but I'm still a little worried.
Just in case you haven't seen already, unlike Nexus, the actual playtest document does in fact show that Reach of the Dead is a free action.
Just in case you haven't seen already, unlike Nexus, the actual playtest document does in fact show that Reach of the Dead is a free action.
Oh, nice. Thanks!
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It is sort of interesting, a lot of the focus spells don't really seem to have any extra juice for their extra cost, but it's not a huge deal because creating thralls is a good idea anyways.
I do sort of, just on first glance, kind of wish some of the focus spells had a bit more oomf, because it feels weird to essentially sacrifice this extra resource just to do what feels like kind of a baseline ability.
... Mostly I think you're going to feel that oddness at low levels, when generating thralls is more expensive, or with certain abilities that eat up multiple thralls (which there are very few of kind of wish there were more).
The way it scales is kind of interesting though, like Draining Strike is four actions of setup when you pick it up, but only two with Master Necromancy, though I'm not sure how well that balances out with the lack of damage scaling.
- A lot of feats simply give Focus Spells... Why not make them automatically obtainable when you reach specific levels, like a Magus's Hybrid Studies?
- Skeletons, zombies and ghosts... What about other undead creatures? Can I upgrade my skeletons to draugrs, my zombies to mummies and my ghosts to wraiths?
- The Bone Shaper Fascination has the most damage-dealing spells. Why not make those "generic" to all 3 and change the damage type?
- There's no way to use TWO Thralls per round, even as a 3-action option.
- You cannot order multiple Thralls to attack. Say what you want about weapons, if I have 3 Thralls, I should be able to make 3 Strikes, one with each.
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• Muscle Barrier
Honestly, I wasn't sure about it at first, but the more I look at it, the stronger it seems. It actually gives an absurd amount of temp HP. I think this spell is probably at its strongest when you first get it, as the buffer aspect becomes less relevant as the game becomes less lethal outside of L1-4. Even after that, though, it'll remain VERY GOOD. It's incredibly competent combat healing spell that beats out every other focus spell for combat healing in its level range, blasting cornucopia to bits. This might actually be the strongest thing in the entire kit.
While strong, it's not unprecedented. Timber Sentinel is very similar for even less action cost and somehow survive the RoE errata unscathed. At least with Muscle Barrier I (as the GM) can just switch targets.
- A lot of feats simply give Focus Spells... Why not make them automatically obtainable when you reach specific levels, like a Magus's Hybrid Studies?
I don't understand. Hybrid Studies don't get additional Focus spells beyond the one at level 1 unless I'm missing something?
- Skeletons, zombies and ghosts... What about other undead creatures? Can I upgrade my skeletons to draugrs, my zombies to mummies and my ghosts to wraiths?
Since they would still have the same stats, I don't see how it would matter? You can just reflavor them as you want. Or use the later level focus spells for "advanced" versions like say the Reoccuring Nightmare is a wraith.
- The Bone Shaper Fascination has the most damage-dealing spells. Why not make those "generic" to all 3 and change the damage type?
You mean give all three subclasses all three initial focus spells? That seems a bit much, especially since it would also automatically give them 3 focus points (plus consume thrall) at level 1.
- There's no way to use TWO Thralls per round, even as a 3-action option.
Not at level 1, but there's plenty of later abilities that either destroy multiple thralls for additional effects or that are just one action (or even a free action) and can be combined with each another or even with a two-action grave spell.
- You cannot order multiple Thralls to attack. Say what you want about weapons, if I have 3 Thralls, I should be able to make 3 Strikes, one with each.
That would probably require their damage to be even lower. Potentially getting up to 20d6 damage (however unlikely) from a single action would be too much for a spammable ability.
Just in case you haven't seen already, unlike Nexus, the actual playtest document does in fact show that Reach of the Dead is a free action.Oh, nice. Thanks!
It actually has a few interesting applications, now that I think about it. You can create a long reaching "wave" of thralls by placing one 30ft away from you, then sacrifice it for Reach of the Dead and cast Create Thrall again to create a thrall up to 60 ft away. And then repeat this for a 90 ft away thrall.
If you're willing/able to invest a second thrall, it can also make the positioning for Bone Spear far less awkward. Just summon 2 thralls at up to 30 ft, then sacrifice one of them for Reach to fulfill the 10 ft range requirement of Bone Spear.
While strong, it's not unprecedented. Timber Sentinel is very similar for even less action cost and somehow survive the RoE errata unscathed. At least with Muscle Barrier I (as the GM) can just switch targets.
Yeah, Muscle Barrier is in that neighborhood for sure. It's a more viable prebuff than Timber Sentinel, and you can use it to protect yourself, unlike Timber Sentinel. But there's no "smart targeting" on it.
I do think Timber Sentinel is slightly overrated anyways. It's annoying unless you directly attack it and crit it (which becomes increasingly trivial as the game progresses). But the kineticist's action efficiency when spamming it isn't that great either, and it only protects against strikes and doesn't protect the kineticist themselves (as you aren't your own ally in 2E).
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I have a kineticist player that uses Timber Sentinel pretty frequently to protect other party members. It's a pretty strong impulse once that it easily allows to full prevent allies to take damage but it's not so overpowered as many think. It costs a lot of kineticist action economy to be planted, "forces" allies to keep closer (what can easily put then in risk of an AoE or forbids then to flank and stay protected if the enemy larger or more) and can be pretty easily destroyed by an 3rd-action Strike. I won't say that's trivial to deal with it yet it's not so difficult like appears.
I don't understand. Hybrid Studies don't get additional Focus spells beyond the one at level 1 unless I'm missing something?
My bad... they get regular spells.
I just think it's excessive that they get a bunch of Focus Spells with feats.Since they would still have the same stats, I don't see how it would matter? You can just reflavor them as you want. Or use the later level focus spells for "advanced" versions like say the Reoccuring Nightmare is a wraith.
Why not convert 2 Thralls into 1 stronger one? or spending 1 additional action to bolster them when I use Create Thrall?
You mean give all three subclasses all three initial focus spells? That seems a bit much, especially since it would also automatically give them 3 focus points (plus consume thrall) at level 1.
No... but right now, I feel like the Bone Shaper is the best one, because it can deal damage way more often.
Either give equivalent spells to the other 2... and make them all available, but that they change according to your fascination.
Obtaining a different Focus Spell would also be feasible.
That would probably require their damage to be even lower. Potentially getting up to 20d6 damage (however unlikely) from a single action would be too much for a spammable ability.
That goes back to my "Two Thralls per round".
BTW, a Thrall deals 1d6/2 ranks... for 5d6...
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Bit of a shower thought, but maybe the whole Reaper Weapon Familiarity deal and some of these martially feats would do well if repackaged into a reduced casting class archetype, ala battle harbinger.
Have a Grave Knight class archetype dedication that gives you access to those weapons, along with better weapon proficiency progression and worse spell proficiency progression. Have it push you to wavecasting, or maybe remove the slotted spellcasting entirely since the class is already two slot and your focus spells are good on their own. There's probably a cool playstyle here.
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Since they would still have the same stats, I don't see how it would matter? You can just reflavor them as you want. Or use the later level focus spells for "advanced" versions like say the Reoccuring Nightmare is a wraith.Why not convert 2 Thralls into 1 stronger one? or spending 1 additional action to bolster them when I use Create Thrall?
Because the class ideia is go through numbers instead of improve a single creature like a summoner.
Bit of a shower thought, but maybe the whole Reaper Weapon Familiarity deal and some of these martially feats would do well if repackaged into a reduced casting class archetype, ala battle harbinger.
Have a Grave Knight class archetype dedication that gives you access to those weapons, along with better weapon proficiency progression and worse spell proficiency progression. Have it push you to wavecasting, or maybe remove the slotted spellcasting entirely since the class is already two slot and your focus spells are good on their own. There's probably a cool playstyle here.
Ok... So... Hear me out.
Doctrines.
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- The Bone Shaper Fascination has the most damage-dealing spells.
This is not true. Every single focus spell is useable by all three fascinations. Bone Shaper simply gets Bone Spear as their free option at level 1, but a human flesh or spirit necromancer can take Bone Spear with their bonus feat, and all the bone or flesh (I don't think there are any spirit) -themed focus spells at higher levels are freely available to all subclasses.
This is not true. Every single focus spell is useable by all three fascinations. Bone Shaper simply gets Bone Spear as their free option at level 1, but a human flesh or spirit necromancer can take Bone Spear with their bonus feat, and all the bone or flesh (I don't think there are any spirit) -themed focus spells at higher levels are freely available to all subclasses.
- The Bone Shaper Fascination has the most damage-dealing spells.
Reoccurring Nightmare is the only spirit-themed focus spell after level 1.
Bit of a shower thought, but maybe the whole Reaper Weapon Familiarity deal and some of these martially feats would do well if repackaged into a reduced casting class archetype, ala battle harbinger.
Have a Grave Knight class archetype dedication that gives you access to those weapons, along with better weapon proficiency progression and worse spell proficiency progression. Have it push you to wavecasting, or maybe remove the slotted spellcasting entirely since the class is already two slot and your focus spells are good on their own. There's probably a cool playstyle here.
I said this the day before the playtest dropped when someone said they wanted a martial necromancer. I think it's a good idea. They should do it
Because the class ideia is go through numbers instead of improve a single creature like a summoner.Since they would still have the same stats, I don't see how it would matter? You can just reflavor them as you want. Or use the later level focus spells for "advanced" versions like say the Reoccuring Nightmare is a wraith.Why not convert 2 Thralls into 1 stronger one? or spending 1 additional action to bolster them when I use Create Thrall?
Why not progressively stronger thralls via stronger undead creatures?
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More thoughts:
My initial comparison class for grave spell blasting was arcane blasting and a couple of similar focus spells. However, the size and upfront damage of grave spell AoEs are better than occult blasting spell equivalents. For example:
Slotted occult blasts
• Noise Blast is d10/rank sonic damage targeting fort in a 10ft burst, deafened on fail
• Animated Assault's initial damage is d10/rank bludgeoning damage vs reflex in a 10ft burst, can sustain to trigger it again
• Vomit Swarm is d8/rank piercing damage targeting reflex in a 30ft cone, sickened 1 on failed save
Grave spells
• Necrotic bomb is d12/rank void energy vs reflex in a 10ft emanation; a 10ft emanation is larger than a 10ft burst, and the die size is one higher. Necrotic bomb also doesn't have a rider on it like Noise Blast or Vomit Swarm, but that's probably fair compensation for selectively dealing void or vitality damage.
--> There's a weird interaction here with the grave spell that summons a Huge thrall, because emanation shape changes with the size of the creature
• Bony Barrage is d10/rank piercing in a 30ft cone, with +1 status to allies in the area; it's the same size as Vomit Swarm, but it doesn't have to originate from you, and is a die size higher.
So there actually is a small element of backloading here, if your comparison class is a slotted occult spell. But it defintely doesn't hit the benchmark of a typical slotted arcane blast or primal blast.
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Being able to start the cone from any square within 30 feet and aim it however you like solves a lot of the fundamental problems with cone spells.
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- There's no way to use TWO Thralls per round, even as a 3-action option.- You cannot order multiple Thralls to attack. Say what you want about weapons, if I have 3 Thralls, I should be able to make 3 Strikes, one with each.
I'm not understanding this.
Every time you use Create Thrall one Thrall created by that spell can attack.They use your MAP,so it might suck,but I'm missing the part that keeps you from casting Create Thrall 3 times in a round.
- There's no way to use TWO Thralls per round, even as a 3-action option.- You cannot order multiple Thralls to attack. Say what you want about weapons, if I have 3 Thralls, I should be able to make 3 Strikes, one with each.
I'm not understanding this.
Every time you use Create Thrall one Thrall created by that spell can attack.
They use your MAP,so it might suck,but I'm missing the part that keeps you from casting Create Thrall 3 times in a round.
Pretty sure they are complaining about the MAP or maybe perhaps no way to burn more then 1 Thrall a turn with any Grave Spell/Action which is not entirely true.
Being able to start the cone from any square within 30 feet and aim it however you like solves a lot of the fundamental problems with cone spells.
That and one of the spells if it hits another thrall with that cone can make friendlies safe from the cone. This allows for a lot of bank shots to either maximize enemies without worrying about wrecking your own team. Very curious to see these in play they seem good.
- There's no way to use TWO Thralls per round, even as a 3-action option.- You cannot order multiple Thralls to attack. Say what you want about weapons, if I have 3 Thralls, I should be able to make 3 Strikes, one with each.
I'm not understanding this.
Every time you use Create Thrall one Thrall created by that spell can attack.
They use your MAP,so it might suck,but I'm missing the part that keeps you from casting Create Thrall 3 times in a round.
Create Thrall creates 1 Thrall/proficiency rank (max of 4). Logically, I should be able to order 1 Thrall per action to strike, but the spell doesn't specify that.
Also, almost every spell that requires a Thrall is a 2-action move. I cannot use a 3-action move to "cast" Bone Spear or Necrotic Bomb twice by sacrificing 2 Thralls for instance.
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So it does in fact specify that you can command one Thrall to attack once for every casting of Create Thrall,a spell which only takes one action to cast.
"When you cast the spell, you can have up to one thrall created by this spell make a melee unarmed Strike using your spell attack modifier for the attack roll. "
Are you upset that you can't command more Thralls per action?
You can cast Create Thrall and use a focus spell on the same turn.
That's three actions dedicated to doing damage.
Most focus spells in the game cost a minimum of 2 actions.
Assuming you don't expect that baseline to change, are wanting them to work on a 1-3 action sliding scale,like Harm?
Are you just wanting more damage for your 2 actions?
Almost all your thralls are created by that spell. Could I therefore create a few new thralls, then have a thrall I created three rounds ago attack?
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Hm, "this spell" really is vague between type and token there. I read it as "ones created by the current casting can attack." But it could also mean what is being suggested by The Ronyon, that you could make any basic thrall attack.
Would definitely like that addressed.
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Almost all your thralls are created by that spell. Could I therefore create a few new thralls, then have a thrall I created three rounds ago attack?
That was how I read it. You can create a thrall not in range to attack (say you're setting up a focus spell detonation) then have a thrall that was in position to attack that was created by a previous casting make the attack.
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Being able to make old thralls attack but only if they originated from create thrall seems weird. It would add a lot of additional bookkeeping once you start getting thralls from other sources like skeletal lancers, living graveyard or inevitable return.
It should either be ANY thrall or only those created by the current casting. Anything else seems like too much trouble.
Being able to make old thralls attack but only if they originated from create thrall seems weird. It would add a lot of additional bookkeeping once you start getting thralls from other sources like skeletal lancers, living graveyard or inevitable return.
It should either be ANY thrall or only those created by the current casting. Anything else seems like too much trouble.
I agree, though I'm hoping for the former.
When you cast the spell, you can have up to one thrall created by this spell make a melee unarmed Strike using your spell attack modifier for the attack roll. This attack deals your choice of 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. This Strike uses and counts toward your multiple attack penalty.
Nowhere it's written that I can order more Thralls to Strike...
I looked again, and I cannot spend 3 actions to consume 2 Thralls to "Cast the same Spell" twice in a single round...
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When you cast the spell, you can have up to one thrall created by this spell make a melee unarmed Strike using your spell attack modifier for the attack roll. This attack deals your choice of 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. This Strike uses and counts toward your multiple attack penalty.Nowhere it's written that I can order more Thralls to Strike...
I looked again, and I cannot spend 3 actions to consume 2 Thralls to "Cast the same Spell" twice in a single round...
You can cast Create Thrall with each of your 3 actions. So 3 potential Strikes each round.
You can cast Create Thrall with each of your 3 actions. So 3 potential Strikes each round.When you cast the spell, you can have up to one thrall created by this spell make a melee unarmed Strike using your spell attack modifier for the attack roll. This attack deals your choice of 1d6 bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. This Strike uses and counts toward your multiple attack penalty.Nowhere it's written that I can order more Thralls to Strike...
I looked again, and I cannot spend 3 actions to consume 2 Thralls to "Cast the same Spell" twice in a single round...
Oh so that's how you do.
I thought there was a limit to how many active Thralls you can have.