So what was everybody's thoughts on the big reveals behind one of the biggest secrets in the PF world? Did you like the reveal about Norgorber's backstory and how it was handled, or not?
Personally I'm just sad that Norgorber was not, indeed, actually four halflings in a trench coat.
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It would have cheapened the setting if the most prolific villainous deity was a meme conjured by the fandom. I thought it was amazing, I hope they make a novel to flesh things out.
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Ignoring the meme, I'm actually a bit sad that Norgorber wasn't a halfling (one, not four in a trenchcoat). Having all the ascended core gods be humans is a bit boring, and having his secrecy stem from a kind of inferiority complex (or be a calculatted play stemming from the fact that halfling gods wouldn't be that respected or worshiped by non-halfling, as Thamir and Chaldira show pretty obviously) would have been interesting. Also, I love halflings, and I really enjoy how they are underclass "salt of the earth" kind of people in this setting, rather than the "funny happy guys" from dnd, but I feel like out of the (original) core ancestries, they are the most underused by far.
Beyond that disapointment tho, his story of Norgorber was really good, he feel like he could genuinely have been a player character from an actual pathfinder/dnd game, or the main character of a fantasy book serie that manage to ascend to godhood, which to me is what every ascended god is meant to represent. Managing to do that without making him feel like a "Gary Stue" was impressive, and I think it work so well specifically because it also show some of his greatest failure, and how other people (his parents) had to bail him out and pay the price for his mistakes.
Honestly, even if it was just a summary, his history in Vyre reminded me of Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy, which is pretty high praise. It made me want a novelisation of that story, even if I know that it being actually as good as that trilogy is very unlikely.
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It would have cheapened the setting if the most prolific villainous deity was a meme conjured by the fandom. I thought it was amazing, I hope they make a novel to flesh things out.
Arguably it cheapens the setting for the super duper mysterious god Norgorber to have literally been a dude named Gorb.
I was always picturing like 4 halfling slaves from Cheliax scrabbling to become a god from nothing; Gorb literally is just the meme of the surprisingly well adjusted rogue.
And in any case, we didn't need outright confirmation that all of the ascended are, indeed, humans. Even just a halfling or gnome in the mix would have helped.
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Yeah, I like his personal story very much, but I'm disapointed that he's yet another human. I'm not a fan of the "4 halfling" thing because I find it more interesting to have a singular being with four drastically different identity, but him being a single halfling with a somewhat similar backstory would have elevated him a lot.
There's something of an issue with core ancestry representation. Humans (now) got all the core ascended (as well as lots of non core deity, the single most important dead god of the setting, etc etc), elves got 2 core gods (calistra and urgathoa) as well as a whole pantheon, dwarves got a single core god and a whole pantheon behind, halfling god two non core demideity that are very much presented as sidekick to other "greater" gods (Chaldira and Cayden, Thamir and Norgorber). Only gnome got it worse with only a noncore demideity, but the fey theme mean that all of the Eldest fit them as well. Even the newer core inclusion (orcs, goblins and leshy) all come with their own pantheon.
In the end complaining about it serve no purpose because what's done is done and I'm absolutely certain that Paizo won't be changing that bit of lore, but it's still a massive missed opportunity in my eyes.
It would have cheapened the setting if the most prolific villainous deity was a meme conjured by the fandom. I thought it was amazing, I hope they make a novel to flesh things out.Arguably it cheapens the setting for the super duper mysterious god Norgorber to have literally been a dude named Gorb.
I was always picturing like 4 halfling slaves from Cheliax scrabbling to become a god from nothing; Gorb literally is just the meme of the surprisingly well adjusted rogue.
And in any case, we didn't need outright confirmation that all of the ascended are, indeed, humans. Even just a halfling or gnome in the mix would have helped.
What did you find interesting about the revelations in his backstory besides your disappointment that he wasn't halflings?
I like that he has a stupid name, is polite, and has a sense of humor. He was just a regular human before he became an edgelord villain. It's cliché that every villain must have a deep voice, be tall, menacing and abusive, with an ultra on the nose evil name like Starscream.
Also, Gorb is his last name. His first name is Jaxter, which is fine.
I'm not convinced "the Starstone only works for humans" wasn't an intentional choice by Aroden.
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Fun to hear all the feedback on this! We don't often do big secret reveals, but most of the secrets of the setting could POTENTIALLY be revealed at some point, as folks see in Curtain Call.
That said, in this specific case:
All of that is also why we're never going to reveal how Aroden died. That story element's power is IN the secrecy, and there's no way to reveal what happened without disappointing too many folks, even though I personally DO have in mind a story for how he died that maps logically to everything we've published. Because we have to know what the secret is to tell stories adjacent to it, even if we never intend to reveal it.
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And in any case, we didn't need outright confirmation that all of the ascended are, indeed, humans. Even just a halfling or gnome in the mix would have helped.
This has always been the case, even though Norgorber's revelation was obscure for a long time. The Pathfinder setting is humanocentric, with humans being the most common ancestry on the planet and in the stories, and having the three ascended be three very different takes on humanity (bravery, foolishness, and cruelty) is 100% the intent and purpose.
There's plenty of other ways mortals have become deities before, and some of those started out as non-human ancestries, but for the three Starstone ones, (four, counting Aroden, who himself was human), they are all intentionally human. (One could even read into that the fact that as god of humanity, Aroden setting this up could even have weighed the odds of fate toward human ascensions via the starstone, but that's an apocryphal side effect and not the initial design intent.)
Yeah with Golarion humanocentrism, I expected it, which is why it didn't surprise me, but it still disapointed me a bit. I guess it was innevitable, and out all all the stories we might have gotten, I really like this one.
It does seems to create a bit of inconsistency in the relationship between Norgorber and Thamir, because they seemed to actually respect each other here, with Thamir being his tutor and helping him quite a lot and Norgorber causing his ascension... but then the recent divine mystery book state that Norgorber "view Thamir with disdain", and paint a very different relationship. I guess the apparent dislike could be a front because "god of secrets" and all that, but I don't really see what either of them stand to gain by doing that.
(One could even read into that the fact that as god of humanity, Aroden setting this up could even have weighed the odds of fate toward human ascensions via the starstone, but that's an apocryphal side effect and not the initial design intent.)
This is going to sound like a joke but I'm absolutely serious, but I fully expect that everything in the starstone cathedral to be solely human scaled (and more precisely, scaled for a human as tall as Aroden). I expect every single stair, door, furniture to be build for the exact same height, and that all the possible night impossible challenges countained within were crafted with the assumption that a human-sized being would be taking them (and thus that some may be far easier or even more difficult for those that doesn't actually fit these criteria).
While just outright setting the stone to refuse non-human seems out of character for Aroden, crafting a "fair" challenge that's actually only account for humans seems completely in character for him.
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I mean we have known for ages Norgorber is a human god. That's exact reason why Aroden hated him, because he was worst aspects of humanity in the there ascended gods from starstone test x'D
Mr Gorber's funny name is perfect reveal to me because it perfectly shows how power of secrets IS in that they are a secret not because secret itself is grand. He seems mysterious and scary because you don't know who he is, not because who he actually is.
(that said I don't agree that mysteries are always great just because they are mysterious, mysteries have to be interesting to solve and if there is no way to make reasonable guesses, then its just "huh weird thing happened". But I absolutely believe that twist of god of secrets being bit of a poser is great secret.)
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Genuinely would've been disappointed or unenthused if the secret was something like "Norgorber is actually the son of Aroden who has the potential to become the god of humanity and turn everyone evil, which was prophecised long ago but some say that Aroden sacrificed himself to prevent the ascension of his most evil child."
But nah, he's a goober called Jaxter, love that for him.
All of that is also why we're never going to reveal how Aroden died. That story element's power is IN the secrecy, and there's no way to reveal what happened without disappointing too many folks, even though I personally DO have in mind a story for how he died that maps logically to everything we've published. Because we have to know what the secret is to tell stories adjacent to it, even if we never intend to reveal it.
My headcannon is that is was Iomedae at the request of Aroden. As the God of Prophecy, what was seen was more or less set in stone... and every culture has looming apocalypse's hanging over their head, as well as ne'er-do-well's who's goals are inimical to life, such as The Whispering Tyrant, Mhar's 'birth', Daemon invasion (any of the horsemen), Zon-Kuthon, and perhaps worst of all, Rovagug, the Outer Gods, and Groetus (just to name a few examples). But by Aroden asking his *then* Herald to kill him and take his place, Iomedae would break prophecy, and then nothing is set in stone anymore. This doesn't mean there is any guarantee of success in averting these calamities, but it DOES mean there is now hope that didn't exist before. The Gods and even mortals can finally grasp their future in their own hands and make changes to what was supposed to happen. Fate becomes the preview of those who's will is the strongest. This would all be things that Aroden would have been aware of as a God of Prophecy, and he would 1000% do something like this for the sake of humanity's future in my opinion!
Re: Aroden's death
IIRC, Aroden wasn't a "god of prophecy" (that was Pharasma's gig), just a god of humans that was supposed to fill various prophecies about the "Last Azlanti."
Also, something something about alghollthu, Deskari, Knights of the (Eastern) Aeon Star, serpentfolk, Tar-Baphon, troglodytes, and/or anyone else that Aroden pissed off at some point something something fated to cause really bad things if Aroden remained alive...
Re: Aroden's death
IIRC, Aroden wasn't a "god of prophecy" (that was Pharasma's gig), just a god of humans that was supposed to fill various prophecies about the "Last Azlanti."...
Have you read the lore? here are a few direct quotes "Prophecy is a prediction or the disclosure of information that is not known to the prophet by any ordinary means. While limited forms of divination work with varying degrees of reliability, all previously reliable and accurate means and sources of prophecy have failed since the death of Aroden on the date of his prophesied return to Golarion in 4606. The death of prophecy is the defining event of the Age of Lost Omens."
or this line in Aroden's bio "Not only did the god not appear, but the very power of prophecy, which had defined Aroden's life and spurred his personal accomplishments and ambitions, stopped functioning, ushering in the Age of Lost Omens."
or you could even look at his area's of concern "Humanity, Innovation, History, Culture, Fulfilment of destiny" its one of his core powers.
or even the entry on Pharasma herself "The death of Aroden, the first of the ascended deities, was not prophesied, and once he died at the end of the Age of Enthronement, most other prophecies in the world also went awry, leading to the current and so-called Age of Lost Omens. Many of Pharasma's priests have lost their faith or have gone mad as a result, but those who remain find that Pharasma's hold over prophecy is becoming less important, while her domains over death, birth, fate, and time are growing stronger." Pharasma literally lost her ability to see the future clearly, and even though she was one of the oldest gods in existence who had that power LONG before Aroden even existed.
My point being, that Prophecy was Aroden's whole schtick! He was also the god of humanity, sure, but de did so through Prophecy. Prophecy died with him, and I think he did that on purpose.
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Aroden did not have "prophecy"/prophets as part of his portfolio as a deity. There were prophecies about him; not that he provided prophetic insight.
When he died, prophecy in general "broke." Pharasma, as well as the cycle of life and death, was the god(dess) of fate/prophets; after Aroden's death, she became "blind" regarding the definitive outcome of future events.