We're getting Necromancers and Runesmiths on Monday

[Ravingdork]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

I don't think anyone is asking for, or jumping to make, "the Abjurer class".

The guardian would like to have a word with you. XD

Seriously though, I would be more excited for an abjurer than I am for the necromancer.

[BotBrain]

Berselius wrote:

I wonder if we'll get other 1e Pathfinder wizard subschools as classes? I think my GF would absolutely love to get an Enchanter class (especially one that gives the ability to afflict mind-effecting abilities/spells on creatures that are otherwise immune or mindless).

I suppose a couple could find their way into being a wizard archtype if not just some featlines or a new school. We are getting new schools next year if memory serves.

[Teridax]

This may have already been shared, but based on this thread:

The Necromancer is a 2-slot caster (and Int-based).

The class has 8 HP/level, and interestingly they seem to have starting expert proficiency in Fortitude saves, rather than Will.

Their Dirge is basically a spellbook in their mind, confirming that prepared occult casters are gated by a spellbook like prepared arcane casters.

Their central gameplay element is Create Thrall, a 1-action focus cantrip that summons a thrall that rises up and attacks a nearby creature, using your MAP. Thralls are immobile, can't use actions, have 1 HP, and automatically get hit and fail saving throws, but can be used in various ways, so less like minions and more like a resource you generate. Each time your spellcasting proficiency rank increases, you can create an additional thrall.

The class is very heavy on focus casting, like the Psychic, with apparently 14 feats that grant focus spells. You can also consume a thrall once per 10 minutes to regain a Focus Point. Some of these focus spells let you generate thralls that work more like actual minions.

You gain scaling Undead Lore, and can take a level 2 feat to use Undead Lore to Recall Knowledge about any creature with a skeleton (internal and external, so exoskeletal creatures work too).

You have three subclasses focused on bone, flesh, and spirit. Each gives a feat that grants a particular focus spell, a general feat, and a benefit to your thralls.

You get a level 6 feat that's a bit like a caster's take on Reactive Strike: if a creature moves near one of your thralls, you can use your reaction to detonate the thrall and deal AoE damage with a Reflex save.

Overall, it looks like a lot of people's predictions were correct: although the Necromancer is a full caster, their slot spell output is significantly reduced in favor of meatier (or bonier?) class features. I'm still not convinced by Occultism as the spell tradition, but the features look really interesting to try out, so I'm looking forward to playtesting this class. Also, both new classes are Int-based, which along with the upcoming Commander class will make Int the most common key attribute among all classes!

[Castilliano]

While Necromancy was a Wizard School and such Wizards were therefore Necromancers, the concept transcends classes as seen with the many Cleric "necromancer" characters, potential Sorcerer & Oracle variants, and related Prestige Classes in 3.X/PF1. If anything, I think Occult was chosen because Arcane & Divine can already emulate the trope.

Do any of the other schools transcend class so much they could sprout into their own class?

Maybe Transmutation if tied to the much wanted shapeshifter, but I think that requires a martial chassis. And with Druid covering so much of the caster version (and quite well), not sure there's space.

Abjuration might be interesting in a combatant, much like the Guardian as others have suggested. I'm still wary of the Guardian's final form given the stumbling playtest version, so I'm unsure classes investing so much of their budget in defense work well w/o killing the dynamism most want from a TTRPG. Who knows.

Not sure what abilities some of the other schools might unlock that wouldn't be too spell focused to contribute much in the way of new mechanics or playstyles. "Can target more types" sounds barely worth an Archetype.

[QuidEst]

Thrilled to have some early info!

- The very temporary nature of the thralls means my thoughts of reflavoring it to a brutally callous enchanter are not gonna work.
- I really hope we get some kind of interact action option. While I can just flavor things, it feels important to be able to have your undead servitors pour you wine (even if it doesn't save actions). Failing that, Undead Master free archetype does the job. There's just something fun about wrenching a being into unlife for some mundane task.
- One minute, one action, up to four per action... Level 19, you can have as many as 120 thralls out if you're just trying to prove a point. Yeah, that feels like a legit undead horde of you just need to have them look imposing. But even at first level, having up to thirty is enough to pull some bluffs. At the same time, that's so action-intensive that practical combat numbers will be a lot lower.

[keftiu]

Teridax wrote:

Their central gameplay element is Create Thrall, a 1-action focus cantrip that summons a thrall that rises up and attacks a nearby creature, using your MAP. Thralls are immobile, can't use actions, have 1 HP, and automatically get hit and fail saving throws, but can be used in various ways, so less like minions and more like a resource you generate. Each time your spellcasting proficiency rank increases, you can create an additional thrall.

Close enough, welcome back, Minions from D&D 4e. I've missed you, and I'm surprised to see you on the player side of the table!

[pH unbalanced]

Castilliano wrote:

Do any of the other schools transcend class so much they could sprout into their own class?

Illusionist and Enchanter easily.

Conjurer already exists as Summoner.
Diviner has very strong pop culture presence but doesn't really work well in game.

Most of the others (Transmuter, Adjurer, and Evoker) have strong mechanical niches, but not so much of a cultural identity. (Unless you consider Evoker = Blaster, but I think that's an oversimplification.)

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

pH unbalanced wrote:

Castilliano wrote:

Do any of the other schools transcend class so much they could sprout into their own class?

Illusionist and Enchanter easily.

Conjurer already exists as Summoner.
Diviner has very strong pop culture presence but doesn't really work well in game.

Most of the others (Transmuter, Adjurer, and Evoker) have strong mechanical niches, but not so much of a cultural identity. (Unless you consider Evoker = Blaster, but I think that's an oversimplification.)

I'd be quite tempted to say that most of what makes an evoker and evoker can be evoked (heh) by the kineticist. The manipulation of raw energies and bending the elements to your whim? Fits the bill pretty effectively.

[AestheticDialectic]

Castilliano wrote:

Do any of the other schools transcend class so much they could sprout into their own class?

Illusion+Enchantment as a combined class, could even be called a Mesmer for those wanting that class. I would be absolutely down to just have various kinds of wizard be bespoke classes and all get a super-class type of wizard to satisfy many people in a hypothetical, hopefully distant, 3e

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I'd be quite tempted to say that most of what makes an evoker and evoker can be evoked (heh) by the kineticist. The manipulation of raw energies and bending the elements to your whim? Fits the bill pretty effectively.

Until kineticist gets an aether/force gate, then we can really say they are the new evoker

[AestheticDialectic]

Also wanted to add the quote for the subclasses:

Quote:

There's 3 subclasses, one for bones, flesh, and spirits. Each gives a general feat, a level 1 class feat, and a unique thrall benefit. Bones has fleet and lets you make a DC 15 flat check to have your thralls not be harmed by effects that take reflex saves. Flesh has toughness and makes thralls create difficult terrain in their space when they're destroyed. Spirit has diehard and lets your thralls deal spirit or void damage whenever they would otherwise deal physical damage. The three class feats they get are ones that all just grant a focus spell

Hoping we get a blood subclass where you make thralls out of blood. I personally have a character concept for spirit already and that's the most appealing to me personally, but blood for our vampire bros

[AnimatedPaper]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Both arcane and occult shouldn't even have the animate dead spell if we are being consistent with what we've been given

Dead horse, and kind of off topic, but just wanted to say you are not alone in feeling this.

I got the game design logic and the offered in game explanation, but it was always something I just shrugged off rather than felt made the game more interesting. I may be the only person that hopes it is sorted out next iteration of pathfinder, but I do hope the big necromancy spells get quietly left out of Arcane (or whatever the equivalent winds ups called).

All that aside, I'm intrigued by this announcement and hope this does move the needle a bit more towards the "oh that's a cool reason that spell is on that list" side.

keftiu wrote:

Teridax wrote:

Their central gameplay element is Create Thrall, a 1-action focus cantrip that summons a thrall that rises up and attacks a nearby creature, using your MAP. Thralls are immobile, can't use actions, have 1 HP, and automatically get hit and fail saving throws, but can be used in various ways, so less like minions and more like a resource you generate. Each time your spellcasting proficiency rank increases, you can create an additional thrall.

Close enough, welcome back, Minions from D&D 4e. I've missed you, and I'm surprised to see you on the player side of the table!

You and me both. One of my favorite parts of 4e.

[SpireSwagon]

Loreguard wrote:

A part of me wishes they didn't 'always get hit'. But if they had a low saves and 1 HP, and perhaps when targeting a Thrall you didn't ever apply MAP to hit, it might come close to the same but leave some room for some chances. Also could leave room for Thralls potentially having resistance which might prevent some higher level ones potentially having some immunity from particularly low level minions attacking them with specific types of attacks or certain weak splash weapons.

I wonder if they can 'inhabit' a Thrall's body to be more up front and personal about attacking, but end up sharing damage like a summoner, with the benefit that they may have a reaction where they can leave a thrall anytime it was damaged as a reaction causing them to only take half damage from the attack, leaving the thrall to automatically crumble under the attack.

It is realistic to get 20 of them. Quite frankly I'm avoiding skeleton thralls because they get defensive roles and I never want to have to roll 20 individual saves at once lmao

[Witch of Miracles]

keftiu wrote:

Close enough, welcome back, Minions from D&D 4e. I've missed you, and I'm surprised to see you on the player side of the table!

I'm one of those people who think minions felt bad and a bit "fake" in 4e. I don't miss them at all.

But you know what? I'm actually somewhat excited to see how they turn out here. I think using them for a player-facing class mechanic makes some sense and takes almost all of the feelsbad out of them.

[Saedar]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

Berselius wrote:

I wonder if we'll get other 1e Pathfinder wizard subschools as classes? I think my GF would absolutely love to get an Enchanter class (especially one that gives the ability to afflict mind-effecting abilities/spells on creatures that are otherwise immune or mindless).

I 100% believe the motivation of the Necromancer was "Necromancers in pop culture", not "the Wizard school turned into a full class".

I don't think anyone is asking for, or jumping to make, "the Abjurer class".

Haven't had a chance to look at the playtest stuff in detail but could the Runesmith be kind of the Abjurer class if you squint a bit?

[Castilliano]

Saedar wrote:

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

Berselius wrote:

I wonder if we'll get other 1e Pathfinder wizard subschools as classes? I think my GF would absolutely love to get an Enchanter class (especially one that gives the ability to afflict mind-effecting abilities/spells on creatures that are otherwise immune or mindless).

I 100% believe the motivation of the Necromancer was "Necromancers in pop culture", not "the Wizard school turned into a full class".

I don't think anyone is asking for, or jumping to make, "the Abjurer class".

Haven't had a chance to look at the playtest stuff in detail but could the Runesmith be kind of the Abjurer class if you squint a bit?

Oh my, yes, yes it could, albeit its martial incarnation and blended with the more offensive rune concepts of other schools...which kinda waters down the specificity. So no, sorry, though likely one could emphasize the abjurer elements kinda like a subclass "abjurer".

[rainzax]

Necromancer Weapon and Armor prof?

[QuidEst]

rainzax wrote:

Necromancer Weapon and Armor prof?

Simple (with support for some martial weapons as an option) and light, from what I read.

[TheSageOfHours]

I am just gonna say that I am incredibly happy that runesmith is int

really didnt want it to be WIS or CHA

I am hoping it gets int versions of the thaumaturge magic item feats, (for using your DC with items and investing more items) it seems silly to me that the stat that is best for making magic items is not much good to actually use them

[TheSageOfHours]

I am a little worried about runesmith being a martial with mental KAS though, its gonna be forced to be squishy as hell like those always are since you have to max your KAS and accuracy stat

sad squishy runesmith gonna start with 12 con every time...

[TheSageOfHours]

on top of that it is a medium armor class but with it being MAD like this its gonna be pretty hard for a STR runesmith to get that extra point of dex to fill out a breastplate

i am interested to see the playtest so that I can evaluate it for myself

[Blave]

I don't see why the runesmith having a mental key attribute is much of an issue. It works just fine on classes like inventor, alchemist and thaumaturge.

[PossibleCabbage]

Yeah, Paizo previously release INT martials in the Investigator and the Inventor. Both had their problems, but they weren't really "your stats are spread too thin." Especially since the Investigator got remastered (and is by all accounts a lot better) and the Inventor is being remastered for the G&G reprint, they have some experience in this particular territory.

[TheSageOfHours]

fair

i suppose i am just anxious because I am really looking forward to it

[exequiel759]

I also don't think the runesmith is meant to be a frontline martial like fighter or even rogue, but more like support or utility martial like aforementioned investigator and inventor. Kinda like trading some raw martial power in exchange for extra utility and versatility.

[BotBrain]

There may also be runes that make you tankier too. So if you want to play a melee runesmith, you'll have options to make it more durable. A rune that gives you temp hp or damage reduction for X rounds seems like a shoe-in.

[Squark]

Runesmith does feel like a class that wants to find a way to get three attribute boosts and a flaw in their dump stat from their ancestry. Minotaur and Android stand out for Strength Based Runesmiths, but if you use a shortbow you can dump strength, and we know there's some ranged support for Runesmith from the stream.

[TheSageOfHours]

they are on demiplane!

RUNESMITH HAS A NEW BETTER VERSION OF THE PLAYTEST STEAL SPELL THING THAT MAGUS HAD

[TheSageOfHours]

runesmith seems super cool

though I will say that I am disappointed that there are only 2 weapon runes

[PossibleCabbage]

TheSageOfHours wrote:

they are on demiplane!

RUNESMITH HAS A NEW BETTER VERSION OF THE PLAYTEST STEAL SPELL THING THAT MAGUS HAD

I genuinely do not understand what's going on with the iconic Runesmith.

[Ravingdork]

Justnobodyfqwl wrote:

Berselius wrote:

I wonder if we'll get other 1e Pathfinder wizard subschools as classes? I think my GF would absolutely love to get an Enchanter class (especially one that gives the ability to afflict mind-effecting abilities/spells on creatures that are otherwise immune or mindless).

I 100% believe the motivation of the Necromancer was "Necromancers in pop culture", not "the Wizard school turned into a full class".

I don't think anyone is asking for, or jumping to make, "the Abjurer class".

Anyone remember the Abjurant Champion? It was SO cool!

[Ezekieru]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

TheSageOfHours wrote:

they are on demiplane!

RUNESMITH HAS A NEW BETTER VERSION OF THE PLAYTEST STEAL SPELL THING THAT MAGUS HAD

I genuinely do not understand what's going on with the iconic Runesmith.

Makes sense, given it's not the actual iconic. This playtest and the last one only had reused art assets in the doc, no Wayne Reynolds sketch or anything depicting the actual iconics.

Hell, we're unlikely to see the final Wayne Reynolds art for the Commander or the Guardian until at least PaizoCon next year. Who knows when we'll manage to see the iconic Necromancer and Runesmith!

[BotBrain]

Ezekieru wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

TheSageOfHours wrote:

they are on demiplane!

RUNESMITH HAS A NEW BETTER VERSION OF THE PLAYTEST STEAL SPELL THING THAT MAGUS HAD

I genuinely do not understand what's going on with the iconic Runesmith.

Makes sense, given it's not the actual iconic. This playtest and the last one only had reused art assets in the doc, no Wayne Reynolds sketch or anything depicting the actual iconics.

Hell, we're unlikely to see the final Wayne Reynolds art for the Commander or the Guardian until at least PaizoCon next year. Who knows when we'll manage to see the iconic Necromancer and Runesmith!

It's from the soulforger part of SoM

[R3st8]

But the real question is: what will be the capstone feat at level 20? Will it be the ability to raise a single uber undead, raise a horde that functions as a single unit, gain undead traits like resistance to disease, or perhaps self-revive in a necromancer style? There’s so much potential...

Edit: maybe raise a undead dragon

[The Painted Oryx]

Not sure if it's been posted here already, but the classes are up on Demiplane!

[TheSageOfHours]

R3st8 wrote:

But the real question is: what will be the capstone feat at level 20? Will it be the ability to raise a single uber undead, raise a horde that functions as a single unit, gain undead traits like resistance to disease, or perhaps self-revive in a necromancer style? There’s so much potential...

Edit: maybe raise a undead dragon

one is extra 10th level spell

one is a living graveyard thrall that has 400 hp and walks around generating thralls when you sustain

one is a perfect thrall with 200 hp that can be sustained to move and attack for 7d10 it also only loses 20hp when you expend it instead of dying so you can keep using it

[PossibleCabbage]

N.B. the Living Graveyard, and Perfect Thrall are, like many of the Necromancer's feats, focus spells.

You are going to be burning a lot of focus as a Necromancer, and I was a bit surprised that there wasn't an upgrade to Consume Thrall to help it generate more focus.

[SpireSwagon]

With the *absurd* amount of focus spells the necromancer has, I actually think a large part of this playtest is going to focus on if they are sustainable enough on this stuff cause sheeeesh, even though they essentially have 4 focus points per fight they are still gonna be fighting those resources *hard* when 14 out of their 34 feats give focus spells, several of which create the things you can currently mostly use with only focus spells.

At first I thought the options like draining strike were kinda mediocre, but considering how damn many you are able to have by late game, I think having non-focus point sinks that just consume a half dozen at once is going to be valuable lmao

[BotBrain]

SpireSwagon wrote:

With the *absurd* amount of focus spells the necromancer has, I actually think a large part of this playtest is going to focus on if they are sustainable enough on this stuff cause sheeeesh, even though they essentially have 4 focus points per fight they are still gonna be fighting those resources *hard* when 14 out of their 34 feats give focus spells, several of which create the things you can currently mostly use with only focus spells.

At first I thought the options like draining strike were kinda mediocre, but considering how damn many you are able to have by late game, I think having non-focus point sinks that just consume a half dozen at once is going to be valuable lmao

Yeah my gut reaction thus far is "This is an unstainable amount of focus spells". I haven't put much thought into what I'd rather yet but as i said, gut reaction.

[Squiggit]

The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.

At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.

I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.

[TheSageOfHours]

I wish we had more examples of runes, I feel like there are many potential playstyles for the runesmith but it is hard to figure out how much support they would end up having

[Castilliano]

Squiggit wrote:

The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.

At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.

I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.

LOL, a Necromancer should get stronger as more bodies hit the floor!

(The concept, not the class as described.)
Hopefully they'll have several ways to make use of fresh corpses, maybe even sucking out a Focus Point if they're so depleted or maybe making a new thrall that doesn't cost resources or more powerful minion that does.

[Ryuujin-sama]

Hmm I feel like some of the stuff on Demiplane doesn't list the number of actions. I don't think I noticed how many actions any of the Focus spells cost. Then I just got to the 10th level feat Quickened Casting for the Necromancer and it doesn't list any actions it takes. Though if that takes actual actions it wouldn't be any good. Looking around and it seems some other classes have a feat with the same name, that is a Free Action, but those also have a frequency of once a day while the Necromancer one does not list that.

[SpireSwagon]

Castilliano wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.

At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.

I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.

LOL, a Necromancer should get stronger as more bodies hit the floor!

(The concept, not the class as described.)
Hopefully they'll have several ways to make use of fresh corpses, maybe even sucking out a Focus Point if they're so depleted or maybe making a new thrall that doesn't cost resources or more powerful minion that does.

Thralls do not cost resources

[BotBrain]

Squiggit wrote:

The class might lose steam in long combats, but normal encounters should be fine. If you're casing a focus spell every round (and Consume a thrall somewhere in there) you don't run into an issue until round five and that's a pretty rare combat.

At a glance, I kind of wish they had a few more sustainable options at low level, and that their melee options came online a bit sooner and/or had a bit more juice... but this is a hype thread and the playtest will start soon enough.

I love what I'm seeing from both classes at a glance though, the ideas are very cool.

My worry is more a lot of your feats will end up being focus spells, so if there's one really good focus spell, and you end up wanting to/having to spam it, you have a bunch of dead feats.

[R3st8]

Looking at the feats, I feel even more puzzled by the choice of "occult." All these abilities involve mindless corpses; it’s less about mind and spirit and more about life and matter. Shouldn't it be categorized as more divine instead?

[SpireSwagon]

Ryuujin-sama wrote:

Hmm I feel like some of the stuff on Demiplane doesn't list the number of actions. I don't think I noticed how many actions any of the Focus spells cost. Then I just got to the 10th level feat Quickened Casting for the Necromancer and it doesn't list any actions it takes. Though if that takes actual actions it wouldn't be any good. Looking around and it seems some other classes have a feat with the same name, that is a Free Action, but those also have a frequency of once a day while the Necromancer one does not list that.

Quick casting for necro is almost certainly a typo, though it's theoretically possible they decided they could get away with it... but I highly doubt it

[PossibleCabbage]

On demiplane if you click on the focus spell's name it brings it up in a sidebar that lists the action cost. It just doesn't show up if you mouse over it. Mostly the action cost is "2" but a handful of the later ones are one action.

[GameDesignerDM]

Okay, Necromancer is already my new favorite caster.

[PossibleCabbage]

Curious how feasible it is to play a Stormtossed Tengu Runesmith who etches the rune for "you are regularly struck by lightning" onto themself with the intention of using it with Transpose Etching, which appears to not give a save.

If you need to stop moving for whatever reason, you can just move it to that rock over there which will know the vengeance of the skies.

[Errenor]

Castilliano wrote:

I'm still wary of the Guardian's final form given the stumbling playtest version, so I'm unsure classes investing so much of their budget in defense work well w/o killing the dynamism most want from a TTRPG. Who knows.

Well, add to defence some 'reflect'/'offensively react' mechanics and you get same dynamism and probably even easy way to be a bit overpowered. And enemies can't ignore you forever. Or there could be abilities which leave them no choice.

When being purely magical it's even much easier than on a non-magical Guardian.

AnimatedPaper wrote:

I may be the only person that hopes it is sorted out next iteration of pathfinder, but I do hope the big necromancy spells get quietly left out of Arcane (or whatever the equivalent winds ups called).

It would be ok if Arcane got some actually unique Arcane stuff. I don't know, some small-scale magical constructs, traps without spending another spell, more energy trasformation spells. Something distinct not shared with others.

Xenocrat wrote:

OrochiFuror wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Yeah, a lot of monsters are just going to have an AoE option to immediately clear the thralls off the board, and then it's just an action sink for them (which is good, but not broken.) Like making Treerazer have to use Defoliate every turn is fine, since that leaves him with one action so he's not closing very fast on people attacking him from far away, but there's also going to be a range on the thralls so the first person he's going to bullseye is "the necromancer" in this situation.

The risk that there are certain creatures you could effectively keep slow2 or 3 on every turn by piling up thralls they can't easily get through is too high IMO. Especially in the mid levels.

Very few if any larger creatures are likely to have acrobatics to tumble through.

Tumble Through is untrained, it seems likely they’ll auto succeed just as thralls are auto hit and auto fail saves.

There's also small thing that Tumble Through is not a save for the target, and it's not an attack. It's an attacker's skill check. Thralls can't fail or be hit by this, so that rule doesn't even work. (Haven't read full class yet)