Tarondor's Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition (Remastered) Rogue

[Tarondor]

Hey nerds!

I've redone my guide to rogues for the Remastered rules. You can find it here:

Tarondor's Guide to the Pathfinder Second Edition (Remastered) Rogue

[Redblade8]

So far, I'm loving this as much as I've loved your other guides!

In section 6.5, maybe mention the Confabulator feat? I strongly suspect you know its value here (given that I saw it in three of your example builds), but the readers might not.

Either way, have a great day and thanks again!

[Dubious Scholar]

Intro refers to "Legacy Fighter", looks like a miss on copy-pasting stuff over.

Alchemist archetype overview appears to be Fighter repeated?

[GM Tarondor]

Redblade8 wrote:

In section 6.5, maybe mention the Confabulator feat? I strongly suspect you know its value here (given that I saw it in three of your example builds), but the readers might not.

Good call. You also taught me that I had more than one Section 6.5. Oops!

[GM Tarondor]

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Intro refers to "Legacy Fighter", looks like a miss on copy-pasting stuff over.

Alchemist archetype overview appears to be Fighter repeated?

Been getting that a lot today. Should be fixed. Thanks!

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Thank you for the very comprehensive guide!
I am looking forward to see the Tian Xia additions.

I would like to break a lance for the Monk dedication - you compare it to the Martial Artist unfavorably, but take it in your sample build at lvl 9 with multitalented.
I am currently playing a goblin ruffian unarmed, and decided to take Monk instead due to:

• Skill training for 1 skill with the archetype
  
• stumbling stance at the same level (4) - you suggest wolf, but it requires unarmored
  
• More HP with Monk Resiliency (Follow Up Strike from Martial Artist is also very nice though)
  
• Not requiring multitalented or a second dedication to access flurry
  
• Master fortitude at 12 with Perfections Path - to cite your guide: "Fortitude (): is a real problem for you" - 5 levels early compared to canny accumen.
  

If you are not a ruffian, the str+2 requirement of monk will be probably too punishing, but on the other hand ruffian gains the most from free hands for maneuvers.

Another thing i would suggest a changed valuation for would be mobility. You write "most creatures don’t have reactions triggered by your movement", but i do think that is true. AoN shows 257 results for "attack of opportunity" and 883 for "reactive strike", a further 106 for dragons "twisting tail" and probably quite some more. Avoiding those seems very important to me. You rank "elf step" with 3 stars, one more than mobility, and take it in some example builds.

[Redblade8]

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

...I would like to break a lance for the Monk dedication...

Thank you for introducing me to that turn of phrase. I'd never heard it before and I love it.

Have a great day.

[GM Tarondor]

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

Thank you for the very comprehensive guide!

I am looking forward to see the Tian Xia additions.

Don't hold your breath. I don't intend to include them. It's way too much stuff given how many people tell me my ancestry sections are already too long.

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

I would like to break a lance for the Monk dedication...

Well, I did say "most likely". I'm going to stand by my rating. Monk is good "for some builds", which is what the Orange/2-star rating means. Martial Artist will more commonly be the one chosen.

Dr. Frank Funkelstein wrote:

Another thing i would suggest a changed valuation for would be mobility.

Agreed and changed.

[Papayago]

Thanks again for the awesome work. Minor correction: the specialization effect for the brawling group is actually slow 1 instead of stun 1

https://2e.aonprd.com/WeaponGroups.aspx

[Redblade8]

I'm curious, if anyone has played an Avenger, does Zealous Inevitability play as well as I want it to as a setup tool for a divine-casting teammate (I refer to the target's doomed value being applied as a status penalty to saves vs divine spells)?

[Tarondor]

Papayago wrote:

Thanks again for the awesome work. Minor correction: the specialization effect for the brawling group is actually slow 1 instead of stun 1

https://2e.aonprd.com/WeaponGroups.aspx

Right you are. Thanks.

[r00kal]

Amazing guide! Funny thing, I'm actually the guy that posted on Reddit asking for Rogue/Psychic help, which led to the post from NoxAeternal! That really caught me by surprise, since what you came up with is essentially my ideal build, lol.

One question regarding that, though. You say to take Basic Thoughtform with the Rogue Class Feat at Level 4, and then Advanced Thoughform using the Free Archetype Feat at Level 4. But you can't take Advanced Thoughtform until Level 6, when you want to grab the Monk Dedication. How would one fix this?

[r00kal]

r00kal wrote:

Amazing guide! Funny thing, I'm actually the guy that posted on Reddit asking for Rogue/Psychic help, which led to the post from NoxAeternal! That really caught me by surprise, since what you came up with is essentially my ideal build, lol.

One question regarding that, though. You say to take Basic Thoughtform with the Rogue Class Feat at Level 4, and then Advanced Thoughform using the Free Archetype Feat at Level 4. But you can't take Advanced Thoughtform until Level 6, when you want to grab the Monk Dedication. How would one fix this?

Did some fiddling in Pathbuilder, and managed to get it working somewhat, though losing out on Opportune Backstab hurts! That also makes me wonder if Preparation isn't as useful for the 12th Level Rogue Feat. How's this look, if you don't mind my asking:

https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=968916

[T'Challa]

Minor Quibble about Canny Acumen (Fortitude) on a Rogue. It's a fantastic feat that should be considered at level 3. It's much more useful than Shield Block. The ideal situation is to retrain it to something else at level 8 or 9. Then it's worth picking up again at level 15 or retrain at 17.

[T'Challa]

GM Tarondor wrote:

Dubious Scholar wrote:

Intro refers to "Legacy Fighter", looks like a miss on copy-pasting stuff over.

Alchemist archetype overview appears to be Fighter repeated?

Been getting that a lot today. Should be fixed. Thanks!

It's not really fixed. You have some guidance about bombs being bad as they don't reach expert proficiency until level 12 and master at 19. Bombs are just martial weapons (1/5/13) that are already able to trigger sneak attack, unlike spell attacks which need the magical trickster feat. They also come with baked in item bonuses to strike, leading to much more accurate elemental attacks than spell attacks.

This leaves bombs from +2-+5 more accurate than spell attacks. You also don't need to invest any more feats to improve their accuracy/level (anymore).

I'd personally recommend MC Alchemist over Wizard or Witch. It's probably on par with all of the spell caster dedications.

[Lady Victoria]

Hi! I believe I've discovered a minor error, and would like to run it by you:

▶ Section 13.6[.3], Duelist Thief build, level 6, WITH Free Archetype

The FA variant calls for shifting Analyze Weakness to the archetype feat and picking up Twist the Knife with the class feat. However, Analyze Weakness doesn't appear to be an option for a Loremaster archetype feat.

• Is there something I've missed?
• And if it is a mistake, what would you recommend as its replacement?

(In my planning build I took Analyze Weakness as the rogue feat, Quick Study as the Loremaster feat, and never ended up picking up Twist the Knife, but this is the first time I'm playing a rogue, so I'm aware I might be ditching a useful ability.)

[Paul Zagieboylo]

I think footnote 5 on page 19 is wrong. The Ruffian racket doesn't seem to remove Sneak Attack options that were already available; it's just that the range of options it adds is limited to generally weaker weapons. But a Ruffian can still Sneak Attack with anything that was already allowed, just like a Thief can.

Also, you left Aldori Dueling Sword out of your list of d8 Finesse weapon options, although I guess it's not easy to get for rogues! (Humans can get it with Unconventional Weaponry, but I can't imagine it's worth it over Natural Ambition!)