Flanking and initiative

[SelinarYaez]

We had a rule discussion that the table tonight and were not able to come to an agreement. The player believes flanking cannot occur in the beginning of combat unless both monsters/allies have already acted. Example: In the first round, the PC has an enemy in behind him. Another enemy gets the initiative in combat and goes to be in front of the PC and attacks. The player is indicating that flanking rules does not apply yet because the enemy in behind has not had their fist turn yet.

This is the ruling.

To flank a foe, you and your ally must be on opposite sides of the creature. A line drawn between the center of your space and the center of your ally's space must pass through opposite sides or opposite corners of the foe's space. Additionally, both you and the ally have to be able to act, you must be wielding melee weapons or be able to make an unarmed attack, you can't be under any effects that prevent you from attacking, and you must both have the enemy within reach. If you are wielding a reach weapon, you use your reach with that weapon for this purpose.

It says "both you and the ally have to be able to act". To me, this means as long and the other is not incapacitated in any way then flanking applies. Initiative does not matter.

The additional reasoning the player has is that for reaction. You do not get your reaction until your first turn. He reasons if the PC cannot react then how can they provide flanking bonus.

Thoughts?

[Squiggit]

Nothing about the flanking rules mention having a reaction, so I don't think it makes sense to have it as a requirement.

Regarding your player's position: Does that mean that if a creature spends their reaction they lose the ability to flank for the rest of the round?

Moreover, many creatures don't have reactions of any kind at all. Can they simply not flank? They clearly don't have the ability to act outside their turn after all.

[Finoan]

"Can't Act" is a reasonably well defined game term. Edit: Also defined here.

'Be able to act' sounds like it is the opposite condition - a lack of the 'can't act' effect.

Having no actions or reaction available does not mean that the creature can't act or does not have the ability to act.

[Super Zero]

That's not the rule for reactions at the start of combat anyway.

[SuperParkourio]

Whether a creature can use a reaction before its first turn is left entirely up to the GM. Many assume you don't start with a reaction by default, but the truth is that there is no default decision. The GM decides "depending on the situation in which the encounter happens."

I typically allow a reaction before the first turn unless all the enemies successfully Avoided your Notice. However, there are also plenty of GMs who don't know about this rule and always assume that no one can ever use a reaction before their first turn.

[SelinarYaez]

So, no clear ruling on flanking in round one. Alright, we will have to make a group agreement on this for going forward.

[Super Zero]

Why bother asking a question if you're going to ignore all the answers?

[Captain Morgan]

SelinarYaez wrote:

So, no clear ruling on flanking in round one. Alright, we will have to make a group agreement on this for going forward.

No. The rules are clear. You were correct and your player was wrong. The flanking rules spell out no exceptions for round one, therefore none apply. Your players argument against was based off incorrect understandings of the "can't act" rule as well as "reactions at the start of combat."

Creatures can flank before they act in combat, full stop. (Unless they are paralyzed, petrified, stun, etc.) You don't need a rule to further document this. The burden of proof is on your player.

[Captain Morgan]

Basically, the rules say "all rectangles do this." You are saying "but what about squares?" Squares, being rectangles, do the same thing as rectangles. (Barring specific rules for square spelling out otherwise, which they don't here.) You don't need another ruling for squares.

[SelinarYaez]

Thank you Captain Morgan for confirming my understanding.