He could definitely get the Handwraps, but you're not missing much at all.
Keep in mind it's a 16 level feat (meaning, 8th Rank spells are on the table) but it's giving you only 6th Rank Form of the Dragon. Then keep in mind battle form spells, by design, can't keep up with a martial, because nobody wants a repeat of CoDZilla.
So yeah if your player doesn't need the 100 foot fly speed or breath weapon, not much reason to take it.
But you're the GM, so you can change it. I think at the very least you could simply give him the same Attack Bonus as his weapon (and it'll ease up on book keeping), that should make it sting less.
Or give him access to 8th Rank Form of the Dragon, that's another option.
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By the time you get dragon transformation, you do more damage without it.
And special material weapons are super expensive.
It's not worth it for a martial to use a combat form unless you need the fly speed.
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Are we missing anything here?
Yes. From the level 16 feat you use your own AC and attack modifier.
So you are always getting the +3 to hit from your 2H reach weapon.
the temporary hit points, flight..
But the rules are ridiculously unclear after that.
If you were using handwraps you probably could get the additional damage from runes on them.
Probably Greater Weapon Specialization applies.
Attack modifier should be equal since it explicitly says it and its AC are the same as your own, not your unarmoured attack or anything just the same.
Greater weapon spec doesn't work RAW, although the rage damage increases that come when you get it do. Battleform rules are a bit restrictive in that regard and can only be modified by circumstance and status bonuses normally, and no exception is given for greater weapon spec.
"If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties." - polymorph trait
This is why rage is specifically called out as being allowed, a specific overriding general.
As for the strengths
- extremely fast fly speed
- darkvision and scent
- temp HP (although, 10 is eh)
- can choose your resistances or target your enemies weaknesses energy wise. (I would assume you are allowing premaster dragon types since they were only removed due to orc)
- can choose useful movement types (burrow, climb and swim being especially useful)
Couple that with having functional hands many combat actions can be used for the most part.
Whether this is enough for the barbarian is up to the player, but I would say generally the flexibility overrides the damage loss if the player views it as a toolbox. If they are just looking for it to be a flat character upgrade, then it will always be disappointing.
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But it seems like a significant combat nerf for the ability to fly and an improved breath attack.
That's, overall, how PF2 works. You shouldn't expect to transform during each and every combat but only during combats where flying and breathing fire is the way to crack this nut.
Feats are not supposed to completely review your combat routine, they are supposed to expand your combat routine.
So looking at how Dragon Form modifies your way to make basic attacks, something that the Barbarian already does very well without Dragon Form, is expected to be rather lackluster. You should look at how flying and breathing fire can sometimes be the right tool for the combat.
Greater weapon spec doesn't work RAW
I think they likely do RAW. Which is why I left the uncertainty in my statement. It is not a modifier or a bonus. Go back a reread the many arguments on it before. It is far from clear.
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I've almost always considered Battle Form spells trap options, mostly because it locks a spellcaster out of their most valued asset, and because martials are already at the power level that Battle Forms grant, and lock you out of important class features as a result, so I can understand the disappointment behind the choice when the Battle Forms give you the statistics of a suboptimal martial of a respective level.
As others said, though, the feat says you always use your own AC and Attack Modifier over what the Battle Form gives you, meaning if you have more AC, and you have more to-hit, then it overrides your Battle Form values. That being said, the question becomes whether you can benefit from the +3 of a martial weapon you aren't wielding anymore, despite the factor that your gear does get absorbed into your form, and you benefit from the constant effects of your gear. I'd lean into "No," because your natural attacks from being a dragon aren't weapons, meaning the argument of "I'm still wielding a weapon, so the bonuses from my existing weapon apply" is invalid, so you'd have to then invest in Handwraps of Mighty Blows for it to apply, which is a feelsbad moment.
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That being said, the question becomes whether you can benefit from the +3 of a martial weapon you aren't wielding anymore, despite the factor that your gear does get absorbed into your form, and you benefit from the constant effects of your gear. I'd lean into "No," because your natural attacks from being a dragon aren't weapons, meaning the argument of "I'm still wielding a weapon, so the bonuses from my existing weapon apply" is invalid, so you'd have to then invest in Handwraps of Mighty Blows for it to apply, which is a feelsbad moment.That was how I read it too.
I'm not opposed to letting him keep the +3 since investing in a second weapon (handwraps) just for the level 16 feat is definitely feelsbad...but your interpretation is how I read it too.
FWIW I read the effect of the feat as getting the +3 bonus to attack.
No need for Handwraps then.
That being said, the question becomes whether you can benefit from the +3 of a martial weapon you aren't wielding anymore, despite the factor that your gear does get absorbed into your form, and you benefit from the constant effects of your gear. I'd lean into "No," because your natural attacks from being a dragon aren't weapons, meaning the argument of "I'm still wielding a weapon, so the bonuses from my existing weapon apply" is invalid, so you'd have to then invest in Handwraps of Mighty Blows for it to apply, which is a feelsbad moment.That was how I read it too.
I'm not opposed to letting him keep the +3 since investing in a second weapon (handwraps) just for the level 16 feat is definitely feelsbad...but your interpretation is how I read it too.
FWIW I read the effect of the feat as getting the +3 bonus to attack.
No need for Handwraps then.
But its ability to be higher requires using a weapon they are no longer using. The rules don't say you act as if you're still wielding weapons for determining bonuses. This would be like saying I should get +3 to my fist attack just because I'm wielding a Longsword in my other hand; the runes, and their bonuses, only apply to attacks made with those weapons. Claws, Bites, Tails, and Breath Weapons aren't attacks made with that Longsword, meaning no +3 applies.
Ergo, the question of "Is +27 greater than a circumstantial +30 that doesn't apply" has a pretty concise answer.
You use the same values for attack and AC as you have before transforming, it's specifically called out.
It's what makes it a good feat, since normally battle form spells are weak martial that scale poorly, this replaces the two worst aspects of battle forms (attack and AC) with your maxed out values.
Couple that with a flight speed 2-5 times what any of your party members have and it's already a good feat. You miss out on some damage and weapon attack options but can build for grappling and have a bite that's better then most options for grappling characters.
Think of it as a change in fighting style, you get speed, free hands, a bite attack, reach and a breath weapon. If you can't find a way to utilize these tools, then it won't be a good feat for you.
Also handy for breaking a polymorph attack. Someone turns you into a newt you turn into a dragon.
But its ability to be higher requires using a weapon they are no longer using.There's this small thing of "you use your own AC and attack modifier". Do we also remove their armor bonus? Armor doesn't exist in dragon form either. So you should just count their unarmored bonus without any item bonuses from armor (including runes), obviously. And we now have this nice case when "you use your own AC and attack modifier" means completely nothing and we can be proud and congratulate ourselves on that.
It's not that it means nothing, it's that it is nebulous and does not take into consideration what happens when you would normally cast a Battle Form. In most cases, Battle Forms don't care if you have weapons or armor, because the effects override the benefits those items give (with the exception of Resilience runes, which is probably the only argument in favor of saying you count as wearing them). To me, if you're going to have exceptions listed in an ability, it would make more sense to provide proper clarifications for it, especially when those values require specific circumstances to reach (such as wearing armor or wielding a magic weapon).
Some tables will just keep it simple and just use your listed values; Occam's Razor suggests you should, and really, the TBTBT argument supports that. But I don't think a table is necessarily wrong to scrutinize whether those values are proper when your effect changes it to where you no longer technically wield or wear said equipment, and said equipment is used as part of your total values.
I’m pretty disappointed with Dragon Transformation too. Being able to turn into a dragon just because you are upset is…a bit silly.
I’m pretty disappointed with Dragon Transformation too. Being able to turn into a dragon just because you are upset is…a bit silly.Let's not exaggerate here.
It's not just because you're upset.
"or after watching a marauding wyrm burn your village"
It's because you're REALLY upset.
Downright peeved one might argue.
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Greater weapon spec doesn't work RAWI think they likely do RAW. Which is why I left the uncertainty in my statement. It is not a modifier or a bonus. Go back a reread the many arguments on it before. It is far from clear.That would be a reason for it not to apply.
Polymorph gives a whitelist, not a blacklist, and "additional damage" is not on it.
It gives a list of what can modify. But additional damage is not one of the modifiers. It is just additional. The various types of modifiers are defined. This is the same problem that exists with the basic damage rules.
The game is a mix of defined terms and natural language. Where the intersection is and how you draw the lines is a judgement call. So you make the call. However if your judgement comes up with a core class feature that is so bad you feel it is useless. Then you have it wrong. The game tells you this in its general rule about things being too bad to be true or too good to be true.It is unfortunate that a core part of PF2 is this way, but it is.
As someone who has played a dragon barbarian, the dragon transformation was a major disappointment at the level you get it at. Like with all things in PF2, the combat form spells are tuned to give casters some martial capability. But they are not tuned to give combat forms equivalent damage to an equal level martial.
So a barbarian at that level with a d12 greater striking weapon and energy runes will do way more damage than a dragon form barbarian. It gets even worse once you hit major striking.
The main thing I used the dragon transformation for was if I was dealing an opposing flying target. You can fly real fast and smash a flying enemy. You can also use reach to attack from the air if you feel like doing so.
It's not terrible, but the damage doesn't match what you can do just standing and fighting.
You can use the form to track down and knock stuff from the air as nothing as far as I know prevents you from using trip in dragon form except a very restrictive DM.
But dragon form looks great, but is mostly not worth using unless you need the flight. Even the breath weapon is underwhelming compared to your melee damage.
Greater weapon spec doesn't work RAWI think they likely do RAW. Which is why I left the uncertainty in my statement. It is not a modifier or a bonus. Go back a reread the many arguments on it before. It is far from clear.
Yes yes, not responding to you on that matter. Seen your arguments, not what the sentence says and don't feel like doing that again.
It says what can only be adjusted by two modifiers and any penalties, additional damage isn't a modifier. Which is why it is called out as an exception, rage would not need to be mentioned otherwise.
It doesn't and has never said it can only be modified by two modifiers and anything else that isn't a modifier.
Paizo may intend for it to be otherwise, but since they have refused to FAQ it despite it being the topic of some of the longest and most tiresome threads on this forum we have no basis for RAI.
Greater weapon spec doesn't work RAWI think they likely do RAW. Which is why I left the uncertainty in my statement. It is not a modifier or a bonus. Go back a reread the many arguments on it before. It is far from clear.Yes yes, not responding to you on that matter. Seen your arguments, not what the sentence says and don't feel like doing that again.
It says what can only be adjusted by two modifiers and any penalties, additional damage isn't a modifier. Which is why it is called out as an exception, rage would not need to be mentioned otherwise.
It doesn't and has never said it can only be modified by two modifiers and anything else that isn't a modifier.Paizo may intend for it to be otherwise, but since they have refused to FAQ it despite it being the topic of some of the longest and most tiresome threads on this forum we have no basis for RAI.
But does entering a Battle Form also mean you lose all your other relevant features, too? Like Juggernaut, Deny Advantage, Instinct benefits, etc.?
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They totaly did Battelform dirty, i understand they wanted to tone down Wildshape and the like from Pf1, but how they did it is a travesty, everything that gives a Battelform might aswell not exist just because of how bad and unscalable they are.
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They totaly did Battelform dirty, i understand they wanted to tone down Wildshape and the like from Pf1, but how they did it is a travesty, everything that gives a Battelform might aswell not exist just because of how bad and unscalable they are.
That is an absolutely absurdly incorrect statement.
Wild shaping is very definitely an important part of what many of my druids bring to the table. It is NOT their only trick but it is a VERY effective trick some of the time.
Even using the most conservative rules interpretation Battle Forms can be insanely useful from time to time. Sometimes you really need the movement or the vision or something special. Sometimes it just lets you conserve spells in some encounters so you have more in other encounters. Sometimes, with the appropriate spell and at some precise levels it actually brings a caster up to something very close to a martial damage (above low to mid tier martials)