Say an enemy has total concealment somewhere behind a wall. They moved behind it and you lost line of sight.
Using your 3 ki points at level 11 lets you shoot around corners and even ignore total concealment.
You don’t reaquire sight on your target with this correct? You still need to guess what spot they’re in, then if they are there the rest of the ability removes all penalties right?
Friend thinks it grants essentially magical vision on a target. Which I think you can’t even target because you’ve got no idea where they actually are anymore. (imo)
Please help!
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Checking the forum for Trick Shot (the name of the ability) (1), the majority opinion seems to be that the Zen Archer will not see the target position and will still have to choose a specific square that he wants to hit.
Then he makes an attack roll and, if there is a path to that location and someone in the square, tries to hit the opponent, without rolling for the miss chance.
RAW, ignoring total concealment and/or total cover is different from seeing the target.
Total concealment gives a 50% miss chance.
Total cover stops Line of Effect.
Ignoring them allows the arrow to hit, but you still don't know if your target's hairs are red or if he is Lord Humprey.
(1) There are other abilities with the same name, so you get a lot of false positives. It is highly probable I have missed some relevant posts.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight, he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can't attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Looking at the rules Total concealment means you have line of effect to the target, but not line of sight. Total Concealment means you cannot attack the target but can attempt to attack the square he is in. When you attack the square, the target is in you have 50% miss chance. Total Cover means you do not have line of effect to the target and cannot attack the target.
If you ignore total concealment and total cover, you do not need line of effect or line of sight and can attack the target. Since ignoring total concealment means you can attack the target directly you do not have to target the square, this means there is no miss chance. Unless there is another rule other than the one on concealment that states you need to be aware of the square the target is in RAW an 11th level Zen Archer spending 3 Ki points does not need to see his target.
Normally you cannot see around corners, but the description of trick shot specifically states you can shoot around a corner. As long as there is a physical path however convoluted a Zen Archer can attack the target.
This does not mean that trick shot gives you some sort of magic sight; it simply means you can make the attack. You would need to know that the target exists. But you do not need to know exactly where he is. Trick Shot is a supernatural ability so does is not dependent on normal senses.
Say an enemy has total concealment somewhere behind a wall. They moved behind it and you lost line of sight.
Using your 3 ki points at level 11 lets you shoot around corners and even ignore total concealment.
You don’t reaquire sight on your target with this correct? You still need to guess what spot they’re in, then if they are there the rest of the ability removes all penalties right?
Friend thinks it grants essentially magical vision on a target. Which I think you can’t even target because you’ve got no idea where they actually are anymore. (imo)
Please help!
You are correct. You need to guess what spot they're in, and shoot vs AC, ignoring rules for cover/concealment. The ability ignores certain rules, it doesn't add any new rules. It would be just like lobbing a rock at someone you think is behind a wall... best-guess, and if you're right, you just need to beat their AC. Otherwise, you miss... no sight granted.
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This does not mean that trick shot gives you some sort of magic sight; it simply means you can make the attack. You would need to know that the target exists. But you do not need to know exactly where he is. Trick...
So you are giving it a no power that isn't in the description?
"Somewhere within the range of my bow there is my enemy, go my arrow, hit him!"Doesn't compute.
The ability says it ignores total cover and total concealment. That means it ignores all aspects of those conditions not just some. Both of those conditions prevent a target from being attacked. The rules of total concealment allow you to make an attack on a square you think the target is in with a 50% miss chance. As far as I know there is no other rule preventing you from attacking a target that is within range. I doubt that such a rule exists, because there is not really a need for it. I don’t know of any other ability that allows you to ignore total cover and total concealment. If such a rule does exist outside of the cover and concealment rules, I will freely admit I am wrong, but until then I stand my ground.
@Diego Rossi the description says it ignores total cover and total concealment. So, the ability is in the description. The archetype is called a Zen Archer and the ability to attack a foe without knowing their exact location seems to fit.
The best example of this type of ability I can think of is from Star Wars, where Luke shuts off his computer and shuts his eyes and used the force to blow up the death star.
yea, I have to say, if casters can get away with it, a character that is built on hitting with his bow and his ability also say that it ignore cover and concealment, should get no less.
Trick Shot (Su): At 11th level, a zen archer may hit targets that he might otherwise miss. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, the zen archer can ignore concealment. By spending 2 points, he can ignore total concealment or cover. By spending 3 points, he can ignore total cover, even firing arrows around corners. The arrow must still be able to reach the target; a target inside a closed building with no open doors or windows cannot be attacked. These effects last for 1 round. This ability replaces diamond body.
Yeah, those are pretty clearly different applications. If it had just said, "ignore total cover or total concealment" as a single statement, I could see arguing the inclusiveness of the statement. But what we have is very either/or, as far as (total cover + total concealment) goes.
Melkiador, I think what Glass is saying is that for 2 ki it ignores "cover or total concealment" or for 3 ki it ignores "total cover". Ie: different cost for the "total" cover. :)
Melkiador, I think what Glass is saying is that for 2 ki it ignores "cover or total concealment" or for 3 ki it ignores "total cover". Ie: different cost for the "total" cover. :)
Is that counter to what I said, or are we doing a bit?