I think if Entrhall's fascinated was supposed to restrict actions taken, it would say that. There are plenty of fascinating effects that say, "While fascinated, the target must spend all its actions doing X." That language isn't present in Enthrall.
I think a good fix, or at least a step in the right direction, for the fascinated condition would be to amend the last sentence.
"The effect that fascinated you might specify circumstances - aside from its duration expiring - that end the condition. If not, this condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against you or any of your allies."
This would allow many of the effects that handle the termination of fascinated differently to continue to do so without being a hot mess.
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It absolutely does.Designers fought back on calling it flavor text.
Someone here probably knows where they said it.They disapprove of calling the flavor text 'fluff'.
Flavor Text is the dev approved term to use.
Ah right thank you Finoan.
That was the discussion. If I remember right flavor text and rules text are intentionally intertwined to give meaning and understanding of what rules actually mean. There is no meaningless text in the descriptions.
On this point I'm on your side. Flavour text has valve and needs to be considered when reading the rules.
But in this case the actual rules are clear. They cover the flavour. They are just very weak. For general adventuring the ability is largely worthless. Yes you can imagine a situation with a use for Enthrall/Fascinated. I'd just always rather have something else.
I think if Entrhall's fascinated was supposed to restrict actions taken, it would say that. There are plenty of fascinating effects that say, "While fascinated, the target must spend all its actions doing X." That language isn't present in Enthrall.
I think a good fix, or at least a step in the right direction, for the fascinated condition would be to amend the last sentence.
"The effect that fascinated you might specify circumstances - aside from its duration expiring - that end the condition. If not, this condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against you or any of your allies."
This would allow many of the effects that handle the termination of fascinated differently to continue to do so without being a hot mess.
I wonder if its just something that cant be that mechanically defined. Like paralize tells you you cant act but you can still take actions that only require thinking like a RK check.
I think of fascinate kind of like an ability that takes the characters focus. It wouldnt make sense for them to be captivated by something and yet still do things that a captivated character wouldnt actually do.I thought of this as I would present the effect to my players.
If a creature casts enthrall for example I would tell the players that failed they feel compelled to listen to the creatures words, everything else just suddenly feels less important than hearing that next sylable. and when their turn comes up ask, What do you want to do?
I trust them to play their character with the prompt I gave them. If they say I want to cleave the creature in half to stop the spell, I would respond as far as your character knows there is not spell, your just really into everything they are saying right now, moments ago when you felt like killing it feels so far from you. What do you want to do?
And go from there. I'll tell you what, my players after that prompt will understand that striking the creature is not in character for the moment but will find things to do that are and that is exactly what I would want out of the spell.
If Entrall was meant to be that debilitating, it would have the incapacitation trait.
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This discussion has inspired me. I have a gnome scoundrel rogue with a saloon performer background who I've barely started with in PFS, and I'm going to see what I can do to turn her into a fascination nightmare. PFS is less friendly to improv tactics, but I should be able to cause a good mess just the same.
If Entrall was meant to be that debilitating, it would have the incapacitation trait.
Its not needed. Theres so many things already about it that end the effect or keep it from being applied.
First off is the “might” give undivided attention part. Already there the GM can opt any creature they want out of the effect.Second is the up to +4 modifier the GM can apply to the save. Likely using it in combat is already at max.
Almost any action you or your allies say or do can prompt a new save
Also if the caster stops talking or singing its over
And finally the hostile clause
Incapacitate on top of all of this? Not needed.
Fascinate is especially bad for creatures. PCs can at least coordinate to make it somewhat useful. Monsters facing parties using a fascinate ability is almost useless.
If we interpreted the fascinating effects that are "getting the fascinated condition wrong" to be specifically overriding the general rule for ending the fascinated condition, would that be a step in the right direction?
For instance, Enthrall's fascination ends if the target is subject to a hostile act, which is redundant because fascinated ends in that situation and then some.
But if we interpret Enthrall's clause on ending the fascinated condition to be overriding how fascinated would normally end, then Entrall might see more use in combat. One ally slapping another won't end the effect on everyone, at least not automatically. We wouldn't have to bend over backwards with "is that what your character would do" justifications to get the spell to at least somewhat function in combat.
Alright, good point. But hypnotize is an area effect. The devs want us to use it on multiple enemies, so for the best use of hypnotize to work best against a lone enemy is bizarre.I don't get the argument that it shuts down a solo boss if you Delay and play your cards right. Even if we rule that the boss slapping itself doesn't count as a hostile action (the basis being that hostile actions are those that can harm another creature), the boss can still target the fascinating creature just as easily as before. Maybe its actions are impaired, but I wouldn't call it a shutdown.Unlike enthrall, hypnotize has a creature become fascinated with the cloud created by the spell, not the caster.
Wait a minute. Fascinated doesn't stop you from using concentrate actions targeting things other than the fascinating thing. It just says you "you can't use concentrate actions unless they (or their intended consequences) are related to the subject of your fascination, as determined by the GM." The spellcaster who created the cloud seems very related, so they should be fair game for targeting with concentrate actions.
Except, it's not so easy because hypnotize got buffed in the remaster. It now has the subtle trait, so figuring out who is the caster isn't easy.
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Something I think would be worth considering for the future of spells, is putting better signposts somewhere whether spells are meant primarily for combat or non-combat usage. Like with enthrall as it is written, it doesn't look like much of a combat spell, but it really should minimally have the subtle trait, right? And then, if it is not really intended to be a combat spell, the duration of "sustained" is unnecessarily frustrating and redundant to the fact that the caster has to keep up some kind of performance (including just an oration of some kind), which, out of combat, it doesn't really matter if that is taking an action or not. "Sustained" as a duration really implies usage in a turn-based encounter like combat.
Honestly, I think it would be worth sitting down with every spell in print and doing a quick pass over "where is this spell's niche/what is it's purpose?" and then making sure that legacy ideas or stats associated with that spell are not hanging around muddling things. Do the traits work? Do the area/duration/targeting? Is the spell description describing what the spell does and contain no extraneous or confusing text? Does the spell interact correctly with any conditions it bestows or nested rules within its traits or conditions? Ideally this would coincide with a balance pass too, but that feels like it would take more nuanced and subjective discussion than just, "Can a player cast this spell and consistently know what it can and cannot accomplish?" I still don't think anyone knows what Control Water is supposed to be able to do or not, for example.
For clarity, I am not saying all spells need to be gated to "combat or not," but that the primary use of a spell as either a utility spell or a combat debuff should be apparent without a debate with the GM.
A lot of spells accomplish this by having long casting times or descriptions that make it clear that using this spell in combat would be very difficult. Enthrall has the +4 save bonus, which is one of the reasons I think it is signposting "not for combat" but its duration is not congruent with out of combat usage, and it not having the subtle trait by default means everyone knows you are casting something...except for the weirdness in the critical success and success sections which I guess means you forget that the caster cast the spell unless you critically succeed your save? The subtle trait seems built to handle this better, with maybe the critical success result telling you that you know that the caster did cast a spell and targeted you with it, kind of like we already have with Charm.
If we interpreted the fascinating effects that are "getting the fascinated condition wrong" to be specifically overriding the general rule for ending the fascinated condition, would that be a step in the right direction?Maybe. It still wouldn't be a strong condition, and we now have 'read here, don't read there' for the condition itself (we still need to know what it does, but we now should ignore ending conditions), but it would be something at least.
I do worry that all effects using fascinated are written differently and something else would break, maybe even making them overpowered (like making fascinated equal to stunned for example as some propose here). Or fascinated become suddenly unbreakable for the duration. We would need to see case by case.
Hmm. How about the wording I suggested in post #51?
"The effect that fascinated you might specify circumstances - aside from its duration expiring - that end the condition. If not, this condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against you or any of your allies."
The party enters an old ruined city in search of the relic the old man had claimed was still somewhere within. After some time of searching they reached a old temple to Pharasma, once this building must have stood several stories tall with a large gathering place for services to the goddess of the boneyard. Now all that remains is an enclosure with sections of broken wall and ceiling. From here the party can hear soft sounds of a melody faint but pleasant.
The party readies their weapons and prepares for danger before entering the enclosure.
When the first player enters the enclosure the GM rolls a secret will save for the entrall spell then describes depending on the result.
Once inside the players can see a beautiful elven woman sitting and singing on a collapsed and crumbled upper chamber exposed to the western side of the enclosure.
The inner area of the enclosure is dilapidated exposing once separate rooms of the temple as if part of the grand hall they now stand in. The hall proper was once supported by rows of columns. The ceiling and upper floors gave way long ago to where the columns no longer stand full.
GM note: This encounter is technically extreme for a level 8 party of 4 Actually probably very scary due to set up depending on placement of difficult terrain and creatures.
lamia matirarch
Lamia x3
Pukwudgie x2
The elven woman is a Lamia matriarch (lvl 8) in her humanoid form. She has an additional 3 lamia (lvl 6) avoiding notice and two pukwudgie in the upper areas.
The grand ceremonial hall is the inside of the enclosure 60 ft in diameter with a pool of water at its center. Sections of ceiling are throughout creating difficult terrain and uneven ground. Each of the 8 large columns take up a 5ft square, the 3 along the western side of the enclosure have fallen over with the ceiling collapsed creating an elevated platform where the elven woman sits. partially exposed rooms beyond the hall are to north and south, some on the first floor and some on the second floor. Loose rubble 10 ft inclines can be climbed to reach the second floor openings expert simple DC.
The lamia have seen the party enter the area and have readied this trap for them. The first player to cross the threashold to the matriarch triggers the floor in a 10ft by 20ft area to give way dropping to a lower chamber (DC 20 Reflex save to avoid the fall. Can grab the ledge with a reaction if failed. Seek to see the floor could give way beforehand, or RK crafting. Structural integrity is given info engineering lore trained).
Lamia are avoiding notice amongst the columns if unnoticed will wait for the players to pass and show they are not enthralled by the song. Ideally using stealth to get into range and strike from behind at the parties most vulnerable looking members. Pukwudgie are in the upper floor chambers hiding and ready to fire on players that come in range when after the lamias engage. Lamia matriarch will take her natural form and engage in melee with anyone that crosses the threshold onto her platform.
That pitfall sounds like a simple hazard, but it may be so beneath the party's level that it adds no XP.
That pitfall sounds like a simple hazard, but it may be so beneath the party's level that it adds no XP.
Ah ok.
It seemed like an enthralled player might walk right into it without noticing. At worst I wanted it to put that player in a position to have to pull themselves up from the ledge.