I'm always keeping an eye out for useful Alchemist stuff, and will keep that Archetype in mind.
If rune transference is the main "get" from the archetype, then the Thrower's Bandolier (a common) will not cost you an Archetype, and do much the same thing. Still recommended for one to get serious Draw avoidance, such as Quick Draw, when using it.
I recommend the use of a Returning Rune for the early game. Thrown melee weapons can have the injury poison remain intact on miss, and Returning will enable a re-throw. And if you use limited Draw avoidance, like with familiar + Juggler, it'll free up the familiar to do something else each time you use the Returning rune.
This bandolier is covered in straps and pouches capable of holding up to 2 Bulk of one-handed thrown weapons. A thrower's bandolier has a +1 weapon potency rune etched into it, and it can be etched with runes as though it were a one-handed thrown weapon. When you invest the thrower's bandolier, you can attune it to all the weapons sheathed in it (this ends any previous attunements made with the bandolier). Whenever you draw a weapon from the bandolier, the bandolier's runes are replicated onto that weapon. Any runes already on the weapon are suppressed, and any runes previously replicated to a different weapon in this way are removed, returning it to normal.
Activate [two-actions] envision, Interact; Effect All weapons attuned to the bandolier, not including any weapons you're currently wielding, return to the bandolier.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2313
To explain that Juggler bit. A recommendation that's gained new importance post-remaster with VV-enforced Quick Alchemy is the Juggler Archetype. There's a good feat in Quick Juggle, which essentially allows "2 for 1" Draw actions, but that's the lesser feat.
Reflexive Catch allows one to catch items in reach via a Reaction. And Lab Assistant allows a familiar to use "your Quick Alchemy." Release is a free action, so an Independent helper can make and drop an item every round, letting you snag it for 0A. Kinda allows Alchemist's inherent lack of a good Reaction to work in their favor, for once. (This also works with the familiar doing a Draw off your belt, the releasing a prep item for the catch)
Reflexive Catch will allow a Tox to pop (VV recharging) inhaled poisons for genuinely 1A, which is a huge help due to them being the primary non-Strike means of poisoning foes.
Inhaled are genuinely "save or suck" effects that are also good AoE denial, and can even steal actions via the GM using the "hold breath for 1A to get +2 to the save."
Was going over the new(er) options, and ofc Spirit Warrior caught my eye.
Leaving aside the general issues that already have discussions about them (mostly regarding "fist", open hands, and etc) it was the feat that allows you to sacrifice your weapon to block an attack that led to my "wait a minute!" moment.
Instead of the great Combination Strike, I want to focus on another aspect of said archetype.
Specifically, the ability to basically transfer your runes from handwraps to any weapon you draw is amazing for Toxicologist who often has action economy issues to poison weapons mid combat.
Simply have half a dozen poisoned blades and draw them as needed, without any worry about their runes or lack therefore.
Having access to some great reactions later on doesn't hurt either since natively Alchemist lacks reaction abilities.
That should work as well as the old Toxicologist tricks like using Quick Draw and Doubling Rings to keep pulling new poisoned weapons, but be slightly more cost effective.
The changes to alchemist do make it a lot harder to have nearly as deep of a supply of pre-poisoned weapons, though.
Oh. Yes, the Bandolier does limit the type of weapons to those w/ the thrown trait, though if you stick w/ simple weapons, that's not really an issue.
On that SoT Chirurgeon, I use it w/ a spear, plus some daggers, javelins, and I think 1 bldgn thing. Going beyond a 1-H d6 weapon seems to be more or less martial-only. And you really don't need 20 L weapons in the Bandolier, so 1 bulk 1 + some Ls is plenty for me.
And Alchemist really struggles w/ getting an acquired martial weapon prof to scale properly. So many of the normal means only grant Expert at the caster appropriate level, and are not set to scale when the PC does.
And even if you do somehow get martial weapons, Trident is still 1-H d8 thrown. Hard to beat, especially when you can have d6 alts ready for when pierce is a no-go.
So IMO, you can use the Bandolier w/ thrown weapons for the rune effect, while still Striking in melee if you really want.
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I don't really understand the appeal for a Tox to prioritize STR over DEX.
Bombs are still by far the best category of alch item, and you can *only* use DEX to throw them. And without 1A bombs, I kinda wonder how a Tox will use 5 VVs in combat. 2 Combine elixirs + a Double Brewed inhaled poison?
On average, you loose 1 dmg per Striking for finesse(DEX), such as with Bestial's claws versus jaws.
And you gain accuracy with bombs. Aaaallllll of them. There's just too many debuff/utility bombs for me to really leave them behind for 1 damage step.
Don't forget that thrown still adds full STR to damage, so you're not loosing that on Strikes if you do throw (and gain significant range).
And if your GM allows you to pre-poison slash/pierce bombs, that's another reason you might consider it.
(I mostly save a Sure Strike for those, as that means it's a prep bomb w/ a VV sustained injury poison inside).
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I kinda could see an Athletics prioritizing Alch Tox going STR then DEX, though that is kinda building against the class' mechanic reality. Tox is the most action-needy Alch alongside Chir, and the class really doesn't have anything aside from a +1 stat buff to help with Athletics. (and even the best non-dmg poison being Clown Monarch also pushes down the desire to manually Trip a fair amount).
IMO, a very important perk of the Alchemist is the ability to pick the save you want to help, then use a sustain-VV to make up that gap. You can honestly go INT --> DEX --> STR and dump even WIS, at least way more than most classes can. Skeptic's Elixir is an outright +_ to will saves if that's a worry, and it's not a mutagen.
As far as I know, because we're still talking 1-H only, the dmg difference is still tiny. Weapons may be one of my least known areas, is it just 1 die step to get something w/ finesse & thrown, or is there more being lost? Looks like it's 2 steps to get both for simple.
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Very bizarre to say that bombs are irrelevant. That's like a spellcaster shunning an entire section of their item list because they are not all-in specializing into them. There's even enough "miss happy" (ground-aimed) bombs for them to have appeal to the most melee-focused, DEX lacking, Toxicologist.
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Edit: Off-guard will be limited to the "thrown trait for stabbing," yes. Looks like my GM was not running RaW by allowing adjacent thrown attacks to benefit from flanking off-guard. You still inflict it for allies, but RaW flaking off-guard is only for melee-strikes. This makes it a significant wrinkle/trade, as finesse + thrown is a rare combo, quick skim looks like 1d4 simple and 1d6 martial, making it 2 steps instead of 1 below.
Poison Reservoir attaches to melee weapons, and melee weapons can have the thrown trait. My SoT Alch uses an Alch Siphon in the same slot, I'd rather do more dmg on hit w/ that spear, even when thrown, but that's preference.
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As for the lacking volume of total poisons, the "thrown trait for stabbing" uses up poisons the exact same way.
If you use your sustain 2/3 VVs for injury poisons, it does not matter how many prep items you need to dip into.
The main reason bombs are still Tox relevant is that you still have 5/4 VVs sitting there that you need to spend in combat, or waste that power.
Paizo even made Enduring Alch non-functional w/ poisons. Due to the action and hand cost of injury poisons, a Tox will *really* suffer trying to Q-Alch + Activate injury poisons mid-combat.
All that is to say: Quick Bomber makes bombs 1A, while even inhaled poisons will be 2A (without Quick Bombs + Dbl Brw).
It is genuinely difficult for any Alch to make better use of their VVs in combat than bombs, especially when the Quick Double Brew Bomb trick allows the pseduo 1A use of all other alch creations.
Hell, even at -1/2 the norm DEX, I could see a STR Tox throwing some bombs. Options like Skunk, Silver Orb, Blindpepper, and even Goo are just that good.
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In summary: An Alchemist prioritizing STR over DEX seems to be a small damage boost per hit, in the range of 1 die step and +1/2 STR to damage. In exchange, they give up the ability for ranged attacks, bombs, that Dbl Brw + Qck Bmb combo, etc.
And will need some solution other than the Bandolier for the rune issue, likely costing class feats.
I don't think it's weird to call that out as a seemingly super lopsided trade.
Not having bombs as a tool in the kit is a major head scratcher to me. Even if you refrain from using them as a normal part of your rotation just having them in the book to quick alchemy into to react to a weakness is very powerful.
One issue with using spirit warrior to solve runes instead of the bandolier is that it makes it significantly more difficult to get Quick Draw.
The primary function of being thrown weapons is to make them Bandolier-rune compatible.
As mentioned, for my SoT Alch/Wiz/Ranger(Q-Draw & Gravity Weapon), I have a Bandolier loaded with a Returning rune.
The weapon I use first is a spear, which I carry in-hand because it's got a Jolt Coil and a VV poison on it.
My idea of a "pure filler" turn is to Electric Arc + Strike(throw) w/ the many boosted spear, which returns to my hand without wasting poisons or siphon pops on miss. I'm L8 now, and hoping to get property dmg runes eventually / soon (our party is broke as hell in this AP, no idea wtf is going on with gp), which will put pressure on me to take out the returning rune. Until then, Quick Draw has kinda been a dead slot. I didn't plan on the returning rune, but ripped apart a Fulminating Spear for parts when the ability DC fell behind. And was surprised at just how crazy rare it is to need to use more than 1 thrown weapon. I can see a Tox using 2 Injection weapons, but struggle to see how often a 3rd loaded injection weapon would really be used.
You only inject on hit, and you've only got 1 MAP 0 attack per round. At the very, very best you can use 3 injections in 3 rounds.
Statistically, you're probably in round 5 or 6 by the time your 3rd reservoir has been used.
And idk how many prep poisons you want to burn in the 4th+ combat rounds. I'd probably try to use more inhaled via VVs, but that's me.
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Saying that you "need" flanking is hyperbolic / disingenuous. It absolutely makes a big difference, but so can not needing to spend an action to run into melee for each target.
Moreover, you can still stab w/ a spear just fine, meaning the only real "problem" w/ the Bandolier is presumably that you're using a 1d6 spear instead of a superior weapon. For simple weapons, it doesn't really get much better than the spear, lol. Considering how much it can cost to get martial prof on an Alch, I don't think going for a dmg step up is worth it, at all.
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And yes, bombs like Skunk or Silver are even more OP after the remaster. They were designed around Powerful Alchemy being 2A only, not 1A via new Quick Bomber.
If I'm ever at MAP and have a 3rd action, there's a good chance I'm throwing a bomb at the ground. A 1A "Save or Sick" AoE effect that scales with my DC is outright better than spellcaster debuffing.
And I'm a Chir who wants to use my VVs on Combine elixirs. For a Tox that would otherwise neglect their combat VVs, it's that much better. Sick 1 is half of off-guard by itself, while being a -1 to more than just AC. As soon as you consider combat a team effort, spending 1A to throw a Skunk when you can splash 2 foes is a *very* good action.
I did not know that when you said off-guard, you were referring to Pinpoint Poisoner. While a key feat for Tox, L8 is rather late to come online, and it was not my default assumption.
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When you say burn 3 VVs per combat, does that involve any Quick Alchemy, or are you talking just about sustained-VV effects?
Not using more than your sustained limit is what I'm talking about when I say "waste" alchemy power. If you never dip below the sustain amount, then there's essentially no benefit to having a capacity of 6/7 VVs. Hence, "waste".
Also noticed the 2A bomb comment. I did mention Quick Bomber, and especially with options like Adopted Human + Natural Ambition, I absolutely advocate for every Alchemist to take the feat. Now that it is the only tool the class has to directly compress Quick Alchemy, it's got too much unique utility to ignore.
When thrown for 1A, bomb debuffs are genuinely better than comparative debuff spells. This is perhaps the single spot of class balance where Alchemist could be argued to be best in system. It's fine to choose to personally forgo making use of that ability, but it does need to be acknowledged. Especially when discussed in the general sense.
As mentioned, due to ground AC being static, and some bombs inflicting AoE saves, ground-throwing such bombs is not rendered a bad idea due to MAP nor lacking DEX, nor lacking bomb feats/features. (besides Quick Bomber)
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One example turn would be:
Quick Draw Strike --> drop --> 1A Double Brew: [Quick Skunk/Blindpepper/etc + inhaled poison or other item] --> 0A square Strike --> 1A Activate.
As long as that first Strike hit, you can force a foe to save 3 times against you in a turn. And due to the 2x2, I'd more likely save a turn like this for when there's +1 foe in there, totaling 5 forced saves. A genuinely good turn, not just "good for an Alchemist".
Now that throwing a bomb can itself be action compression for that 2nd item via Quick Bomber + Double Brew (L9 +), it's super hard to justify leaving that option unused. It does mean that you can wait to take Quick Bomber much later due to when Double Brew comes online, but it's a powerful class feature that ought be factored into the discussion.
I don't know if you have somehow genuinely missed this 3 times now, or if you are choosing to deliberately ignore it:
you can throw bombs at the ground. Even when at MAP, the static AC of objects/terrain means that you can hit to invoke the full AoE. Stop pretending you need to hit foe AC.
The ability to spend 1A to force an AoE save or Sick/Blind/etc is better than what spells can do. And is very much a valid spend of a VV.
When that specific spend is also able to reduce the action cost of a VV inhaled poison, or any other alch item, the "1A save bomb" becomes that much better.
If you are already doing a Quick Draw build for poisoning, I would have expected this to have great appeal. Not every alch build can free both hands for Double Brew.
Considering that many feats award single focus spells inferior to Skunks, spending a L1 class feat for this Quick Bomber option for all bombs is one of the best cost-benefits an Alchemist can ever get. Even without the Double Brew action compression.
you can throw bombs at the ground. Even when at MAP, the static AC of objects/terrain means that you can hit to invoke the full AoE. Stop pretending you need to hit foe AC.The ability to spend 1A to force an AoE save or Sick/Blind/etc is better than what spells can do. And is very much a valid spend of a VV.
This is kind of true, but the skunk bomb in particular gives everyone in the splash +1 degree of succees, and because the bomb DC is at most your class DC (skunks are always lower than class DC, but they get bumped by powerful alchemy at 5th), enemies are very likely to succeed and therefore ignore your bomb completely unless you're fighting lower level enemies. But if you were, you wouldn't need to hit the floor, you'd just try to hit them.
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While it is rather silly, by RAW you cannot just throw a Bomb at the ground. The definition of Strike specifies a Creature as the Target, and a Strike is how you Activate a Bomb.
It also occurs to me that things like the somewhat unique design space of Skunk Bombs may be why Paizo decided to end area Splash on a miss.
While it is rather silly, by RAW you cannot just throw a Bomb at the ground. The definition of Strike specifies a Creature as the Target, and a Strike is how you Activate a Bomb.
It also occurs to me that things like the somewhat unique design space of Skunk Bombs may be why Paizo decided to end area Splash on a miss.
Two things here:
1 - Yes, technically, you can't Strike anything but a creature. However, Paizo doesn't follow this RAW at all since you can find plenty of instances in published Adventures where you're supposed to Strike objects, and they're given AC, HP, etc. The most common of these are Hazards, for example, the Slamming Door. Being able to attack the floor isn't spelled out but it's something you should be able to easily do.
2 - The Splash trait change affects only Splash damage, not any other effects the bomb would have against creatures/objects within the Splash area. Stuff like the Skunk Bomb save or the difficult terrain from the Aether Marble still apply even on a miss.
Fair point, but for the time being I'm going with majority rule. We have two sources with the nerfed Splash to one with the original. (Both Player Cores largely agree on Splash, although PC2 has the wording on Strength bonuses that PC1 lacks.)
1 - Yes, technically, you can't Strike anything but a creature. However, Paizo doesn't follow this RAW at all since you can find plenty of instances in published Adventures where you're supposed to Strike objects, and they're given AC, HP, etc. The most common of these are Hazards, for example, the Slamming Door. Being able to attack the floor isn't spelled out but it's something you should be able to easily do.
2 - The Splash trait change affects only Splash damage, not any other effects the bomb would have against creatures/objects within the Splash area. Stuff like the Skunk Bomb save or the difficult terrain from the Aether Marble still apply even on a miss.
A Skunk Bomb has its effect (with saving throw bump) to everything in the Splash area. Under the Player Cores version of Splash, on a miss, the Splash doesn't have an area, as it only effects the target.
Splash is a single thing. There is not mechanical / textual basis for splitting splash "effects" from splash damage.
The actual trait itself is pure damage only. Rephrased: "the effect of splash is the damage."
Any bomb that also puts effects into the splash is a specific override outside of the base splash mechanic.
There is no basis for ever having a splash "effect" area differ from the damage area. They are one in the same. A bomb would need to specifically state that it uses 2 different splash areas for that to happen.
As the new version of splash was used in PC2, it is very safe to say that version of the rules is the one that's intended RaW.
Meaning, if you miss, you only splash the target, not the AoE. So if one is counting on the AoE, a missed Strike carries much more risk now.
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When only splashed, Skunk Bombs become a "save OR sick" due to the degree upgrade. On hit, they are sick even on save.
You have 2A focus spells like Scramble Body that are 30ft single target, with 0 effect on save, and Sick 1 on fail.
Goblin Pox is a 2A spell that does inflict Sick 1 on success, but is touch and single target.
Stinking Cloud is a 2A R3 that does inflict Sick 1 on save, and creates a 20ft burst. This is where you get something that is ~better than Skunk, but only if you're able/willing to spend 2A. Very underrated spell.
Skunks are 20ft and can be 1A, and AoE. If you're at MAP 0, you can aim at a foe for a potential slow, or Skunks can be used as a high MAP AoE via targeting an object.
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As for targeting the floor, the argument that convinced me was that of targeting/Striking objects. Players attacking objects is a rather universal thing, even if there's not a table of ACs for common objects like tables or chairs. Like with Jumping around, attacking objects is a rare example of when it's perfectly appropriate to have such a maneuver use a static AC for the same task, even as levels go up.
Thankfully, there's a lucky break in the rules to make it clear this is RaI for the hyper-RaW focused:
This is where you can use a variant of the well-known improv “Yes, and,” technique: you can say “Yes, but.” With “Yes, but,” you allow the player's creative idea, but tie it into the world and the game rules via some sort of additional consequences, potentially adding the uncertainty of an additional roll. Here are some simple ways you might implement this tool:
* Require a directed attack against an object, then allow foes to attempt saving throws against the object's effect at a DC you choose. Example: cast an ignition spell at a barrel of explosives.https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2504&Redirected=1
RaW, it's "invalid" to target an explosive barrel with a spell, yet this is a specific example of something that ought be allowed. (while object striking is also mentioned in the general sense of what a GM ought to permit)
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While this idea of bombing the floor is / will be discussed more after the change to the splash mechanic, I can't find any reason to deny the option to those who are willing to trade away the chance of direct hits to gain assurance for splash AoEs (though nat 1s are still possible).
While 1A AoE save DC bombs can be very good in this new Quick Bomber world, IMO it's not near strong enough to merit a GM ruling that "no, you are not allowed to throw the bomb at the ground." due to balance concerns.