A massive storm cloud forms in the air above the area, spreading rain and gales. The wind imposes a –4 circumstance penalty to physical ranged attacks. The air in the area is greater difficult terrain for flying creatures. When you Cast this Spell and the first time each round you Sustain it on subsequent rounds, you can choose one of the following storm effects. You can't choose the same effect twice in a row.
Blizzard The driving snow deals 4d8 cold damage to each creature in or below the storm with no save. Everything in or beneath the cloud is concealed by driving snow and any ground is difficult terrain.
Hail Each creature in or below the storm takes 4d10 bludgeoning damage with a basic Fortitude save.
Lightning Choose up to 10 creatures in or below the storm to be struck by lightning. Each of them takes 7d6 electricity damage with a basic Reflex save.
Tornado A roughly cylindrical whirlwind appears in or below the cloud in a 30-foot radius. Each creature in the whirlwind is thrown 40 feet upward.
We had some arguments exactly how this spells effect work at the table last session.
How long do the effects last? the implication is that they last untill your next turn when you sustain it again, but that is never stated and some of them would do nothing if they are instantaneous for example the concealment and diffucult terrain.
we ruled it that it last untill next sustain as implied.
but then we came to the last option Tornado and it feels like some text is missing to explain how they mean for this to work.
Is it a "one off" instant tossing up that make them fall taking 20damage and be prone? or are they stuck in the air untill the effect end at next susstain if they dont have fly?
Some argued that 20damage + prone was "good enuf"
and that having the option to hold creatures in the air for 1 round ever 2 rounds was to powerful
how would all you rule this ambiguous spell?
Short summary how my gm ruled it after some discussion:
Blizzard: Instant damage + 1 round concealment and Difficult terrain
Hail: instant damage
Lightning: instant damage
Tornado: instant toss up and directly falling for 20damage and prone.
The damage effects all happen one-and-done when the spell is sustained.
I would also rule on the tornado that it lifts and drops one-and-done when the spell is sustained. I would treat it like forced movement with an override that it can move people to a location where they don't have a speed that would let them reach it (a fly speed typically), and they would fall at the end of the action that lifted them. If a target does have a fly speed, it would not force them to fall - they wouldn't fall until/unless they don't spend an action on Fly during their next turn.
I can see that one being ambiguous and that other people likely rule differently.
The conditions that it can apply all last for the duration of that sustaining of the spell. They would end when the spell does or when a new effect is created when the spell is sustained again.
If a target does have a fly speed, it would not force them to fall - they wouldn't fall until/unless they don't spend an action on Fly during their next turn.Mustn't they use Arrest a Fall for this? It's created specifically for this case I think.
I think it depends on what you are considering the effect to be categorized as.
I am putting it in the bucket of forced movement. Forced Movement doesn't let you move the target to a location that they couldn't reach because they don't have a speed type to get there. So you couldn't normally use forced movement to push or lift someone into the air if they don't have a fly speed. Wrathful Storm's effect would be a specific override of this general rule. But if the target does have a fly speed, then you can move them into the air. For example you could use Shove or Reposition to move a flying creature into the air without any rule override needed.
And if you do use Forced Movement to move a creature with a fly speed into the air, what happens?
My thought is that since they got to that position because the do have a fly speed, then they follow the normal rules for flying and don't fall immediately - they fall at the end of their next turn if they don't use a Fly action.
And since the Forced Movement rule override in Wrathful Storm only overrides the restriction on moving creatures into the air, it doesn't change what happens to them once they reach that position. Creatures without a fly speed immediately fall because that is how Falling rules work. Creatures with a fly speed fall at the end of their next turn because that is how a fly speed works.
Now, if the spell has dropping the creature as part of the spell's effect - like Rising Hurricane does - then I think there is a better argument for flying creatures also falling and needing to use Arrest a Fall in order to avoid taking the fall damage.
> If you're pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like.
I think "thrown" qualifies as a push in this context
That still doesn't mean that you can be moved to a location that you don't have a movement speed to reach. Just that you can take damage as a result of being moved to a location that you could normally reach.
Creatures without a fly speed immediately fall because that is how Falling rules work. Creatures with a fly speed fall at the end of their next turn because that is how a fly speed works.
Would you mind sourcing this.
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Creatures without a fly speed immediately fall because that is how Falling rules work. Creatures with a fly speed fall at the end of their next turn because that is how a fly speed works.Would you mind sourcing this.
I think it's because of this line in the Fly action:
"If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall."
But I don't see how that would apply here. Or rather, I fail to see how it distinguishes people with or without a fly speed, beyond the latter being able to use the action.
If I pick up Steve the Ratfolk and throw him 40 feet into the air, he falls immediately. Everyone falls immediately, there is no distinction here, either in the Falling rules or the Fly speed rules, that separates when we check Falling for creatures with or without a flight speed.
If Steve the Ratfolk had a Fly speed, he can try to Arrest a Fall. If he doesn't and there's no ledge nearby, he will have a big ouchie coming, barring some feats.
An interesting conundrum does happen if Steve spends an action to Fly and then gets Tornado'd up. The Tornado doesn't knock him prone so he shouldn't fall, I don't think. But this would be because he spent an action to Fly, not just because he has a Fly Speed.
I think it's because of this line in the Fly action:
"If you're airborne at the end of your turn and didn't use a Fly action this round, you fall."
Yes. That.
Edit: Regarding the rule for falling if you don't have a fly speed, I am not finding the RAW that I thought exists (and still think is somewhere, I'm just not finding it on demand) that says that you fall after an action if you are in the air. But I am not sure that it is necessary to my argument:
1) Without that, no one would ever have to fall.
2) No one is disputing that a creature without a fly speed immediately falls and takes damage when lifted by the Tornado effect.
The Tornado doesn't knock him prone so he shouldn't fall, I don't think. But this would be because he spent an action to Fly, not just because he has a Fly Speed.
That is a distinction that I don't believe is RAI. This is more of a rules technicality. Especially if you are allowing a previously used Fly action to still have effect when the Tornado lifts them while it is no longer their turn.
So, you are saying that the first creature falls and takes damage because it didn't use a Fly action during its Round 2 actions, but the second creature does get to stay in the air because it did happen to use a Fly action to land during Round 2.
The Forced Movement rules account for creatures with a fly speed by not allowing creatures without a fly speed to be moved into the air. Things like Whirling Throw don't move you into a position in the air - you are forcibly thrown to a location on the ground.
All that Wrathful Storm's Whirlwind effect says is, "Each creature in the whirlwind is thrown 40 feet upward." It doesn't say that they drop to the ground afterward.
That is a distinction that I don't believe is RAI. This is more of a rules technicality. Especially if you are allowing a previously used Fly action to still have effect when the Tornado lifts them while it is no longer their turn.
Ok, but that is exactly how it has to work or it makes no sense? The Fly action checks at the end of a creature's turn, so anything that works outside of that needs to be adjudicated.
Creature A has a turn, uses Fly, ends up airborne over a chasm. They do not Fall, since at End of Turn they have used a Fly action during the round.
Creature A has 2nd turn, Flies to land, Triggers a reaction, gets pushed out over the chasm. They have used an action to Fly this Round, so they don't fall at the end of their turn.
Whether silly or not, these two examples are perfect, unarguable RaW. At the end of each of Creature A's turns it was both airborne and it had spent an action to Fly that round, so it doesn't fall.
The main issue with these rules arises in the interim:
Creature A has a 3rd turn, flies to land, then attacks. Creatue B then critically shoves Creature A 10 feet back into the chasm. What happens to Creature A? You were the one that says they would fall at the end of their next turn, assuming they don't spend an action to Fly. For me, Creature A immediately falls 500 feet into the chasm, and they can use Grab an Edge or Arrest a Fall to prevent all damage.
(I can see where the confusion comes from, but my "conundrum" in my earlier post was if Steve was somehow Tornado'd during his own turn. My apologies if that was unclear. If Steve the Flying Ratfolk takes his turn and is then Tornado'd he falls as normal.)
he Forced Movement rules account for creatures with a fly speed by not allowing creatures without a fly speed to be moved into the air. Things like Whirling Throw don't move you into a position in the air - you are forcibly thrown to a location on the ground.
All that Wrathful Storm's Whirlwind effect says is, "Each creature in the whirlwind is thrown 40 feet upward." It doesn't say that they drop to the ground afterward.
Forced Movement rules are incredibly stupid because they don't say that. They say you can't be moved somewhere the creature "couldn't occupy" because they "lack the movement required to reach it".
If someone has Cloud Jump, they can absolutely "reach" 40 feet up in the air, and they can definitely "occupy" the space. They just have no way of staying there. It's the same for creatures using feats to give them temporary flight speed. So already the rules are dumb, but it gets worse.
It then goes on to say Pushes and Pulls can actually send a creature to a square it couldn't occupy, because one of the examples is "pushing someone off a cliff" which is, by their own definition, otherwise impossible.
But even with all that, the relevant sentece here is:
"Abilities that reposition you in some other way can't put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise"
I would argue that Wrathful's Storm "Each creature in the whirlwind is thrown 40 feet upward." is such a specification, both because as a 9th level spell it being unable to put people 40 feet up in the air is patently idiotic, but also because it is specifying a direction. Throwing you upward is essentially the same as pushing you upward, even if I recognise they don't use those words.
As for your second part, it doesn't need to specify. Wrathful Storm doesn't keep them aloft either, so the conclusion is they fall.