Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
This ability reads that “For 1 round, the attacker is affected by revealing light.“ How are people running that? Does it end after a full round or and the beginning of the Champ’s turn. The latter really limits the utility of the feature.
PC1 p.426, it counts down at the start of the champion's turn
My advice is roll high for initiative, and if the monsters roll low enough that you effectively go "next", Delay until you're right before them. Active effects will still count down or expire when you Delay, but it will help on future rounds
I'm running it until start of the enemy's next turn, since Duration on stuff on a token is reduced on either start or finish of its turn, and reducing it at the end of its current turn felt too little.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Baarogue is 100% correct about what the rule is. It isn't an ambiguous one at all.
Quote: For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start. But yes, I've seen that a lot of people are houseruling it as lasting until the monster's next turn, instead.
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HammerJack wrote: Baarogue is 100% correct about what the rule is. It isn't an ambiguous one at all.
Quote: For an effect that lasts a number of rounds, the remaining duration decreases by 1 at the start of each turn of the creature that created the effect. Detrimental effects often last “until the end of the target’s next turn” or “through” a number of their turns (such as “through the target’s next 3 turns”), which means that the effect’s duration decreases at the end of the creature’s turn, rather than the start. But yes, I've seen that a lot of people are houseruling it as lasting until the monster's next turn, instead.
The confusion comes from the second sentence that you didn't bold:
"Detrimental effects lasting through a number of turns decrease at the end of that creature's turn."
Basically we have 2 different "rounds" depending where the effect is, and then we even have a 3rd category of effects that even though they are on a creature have their own, unique, ways to count rounds ("until the end of your next turn" is one common one coming up in my mind).
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Using a direct example, Slow has a duration of "varies" like Revealing Light, affects a creature, like Revealing Light, and ends at the end of the Creature's turn.
Why should Revealing Light be different?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
I didn't bold that line because it doesn't apply. It is describing what different ways of writing a duration, that aren't used by the ability we're talking about, mean.
The duration given is "for 1 round" not "through the target’s next turn", not "until the target’s next turn."
HammerJack wrote: I didn't bold that line because it doesn't apply. It is describing what different ways of writing a duration, that aren't used by the ability we're talking about, mean.
The duration given is "for 1 round" not "through the target’s next turn", not "until the target’s next turn."
To my knowledge, the exact language of "through the target's next X rounds" doesn't actually exists.
It's just that detrimental effects that affect a target, like Slow, to my knowledge always tick down at the end of their Turn, not at the end of the caster's turn.
Command has that wording, but I wasn't able to find any other spells that did in my cursory flip through PC1, though a few like confusion called for supplementary saves at the end of the target's turn. I didn't look through all effects, such as those imposed by feats, so maybe someone less lazy than I can find more. That sentence has existed in that form since pre-remaster (CR p.455), so perhaps they wrote it in case anyone did write an effect with its duration worded that way, and then just didn't find much call for it
But I'm not sure why you're saying slow counts down at the end of the target's turn. It doesn't say that in the spell, or in the condition, or in the pre-remaster spell or condition; not even 1st printing. Can you show us?
Baarogue wrote: Command has that wording, but I wasn't able to find any other spells that did in my cursory flip through PC1, though a few like confusion called for supplementary saves at the end of the target's turn. I didn't look through all effects, such as those imposed by feats, so maybe someone less lazy than I can find more. That sentence has existed in that form since pre-remaster (CR p.455), so perhaps they wrote it in case anyone did write an effect with its duration worded that way, and then just didn't find much call for it
But I'm not sure why you're saying slow counts down at the end of the target's turn. It doesn't say that in the spell, or in the condition, or in the pre-remaster spell or condition; not even 1st printing. Can you show us?
My reading is that Detrimental Effects that last rounds count down at the end of the round.
Not only does Duration entry make separate note about those (even if in that passage it does mention some specific wording) but also End of Turn says:
Quote: End any effects that last until the end of your turn. For example, spells with a sustained duration end at the end of your turn unless you used the Sustain a Spell action during your turn to extend them. Some effects caused by enemies might also last through a certain number of your turns, and you decrease the remaining duration by 1 during this step, ending the effect if its duration is reduced to 0. Slow, and other Detrimental effects last through your turn and count down at the end of it. That's my reading of those 2 sections of the rules.
Logistics wise, it's also much more convenient to count effects on the target on the target's turn instead of having to keep track of multiple different turn counts, especially when those turn counts can keep shifting left and right throughout a combat.
I feel that's also the RAI of why detrimental effects go on the target's turn and beneficial on the caster's, it's much neater bookkeeping.
But even that line you quote from End of Turn uses the "through" wording referred to in Duration. I don't see conflicting wordings to be interpreted. I see two different ways for duration to be listed and the two different ways they're handled. Start Your Turn definitively refers to effects you created that last a certain number of rounds with the same confidence as it's stated in Duration on PC1 p.426, and End Your Turn uses wording like "some effects", "might", and "through", which make them sound like the cases referred to in Duration 2.2 and not the rule
PC1 p.302, (Spell) Durations also mentions varying ways durations might be listed, "A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer," but ends the first paragraph with the same general rule, "If a spell's duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster's turns, ending when the duration reaches 0."
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The confusion comes from the second sentence that you didn't bold:
"Detrimental effects lasting through a number of turns decrease at the end of that creature's turn."
Basically we have 2 different "rounds" depending where the effect is, and then we even have a 3rd category of effects that even though they are on a creature have their own, unique, ways to count rounds ("until the end of your next turn" is one common one coming up in my mind).
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So to summarize the duration of 1 round isn't a full round. It ends 1) beginning of your turn if it is an effect you create or 2) end of the target turn if its a detrimental effect. So if Glimpse is both an effect I created and detrimental to the monster, its DM's call?
If it says "rounds" it counts down at the start of the turn of the creature that created the effect. If it says "turns" it counts down at the end of the turn of the creature it's inflicted on.
Baarogue wrote: But even that line you quote from End of Turn uses the "through" wording referred to in Duration. I don't see conflicting wordings to be interpreted. I see two different ways for duration to be listed and the two different ways they're handled. Start Your Turn definitively refers to effects you created that last a certain number of rounds with the same confidence as it's stated in Duration on PC1 p.426, and End Your Turn uses wording like "some effects", "might", and "through", which make them sound like the cases referred to in Duration 2.2 and not the rule
PC1 p.302, (Spell) Durations also mentions varying ways durations might be listed, "A spell might last until the start or end of a turn, for some number of rounds, for minutes, or even longer," but ends the first paragraph with the same general rule, "If a spell's duration is given in rounds, the number of rounds remaining decreases by 1 at the start of each of the spellcaster's turns, ending when the duration reaches 0."
"You are affected by X through 2 rounds" and "you are affected by X for 2 rounds" to me it sounds exactly the same. Especially when we consider that the rules are written in casual language.
I wouldn't base my ruling in the inclusion, or absence, of one specific, non-mechanics word (not capitalized).
So yes, my reading is that Detrimental Effects on Targets expire on round ends of affected Targets, backed by the language present in both End of Turn and Duration segments.
shroudb wrote: "You are affected by X through 2 rounds" and "you are affected by X for 2 rounds" to me it sounds exactly the same. Especially when we consider that the rules are written in casual language. Normally a good inference, but in this case the rules specifically note that they are different. P426 says "lasts x rounds" counts down at the start of the creator's turn while "through x rounds" counts down at the end of (target) creature's turn. So in this case Paizo is attributing different rules to different syntax. The duration of revealing light is 1 round. Glimpse of redemption says for 1 round. Neither says through.
Really, the problem here is that the Champion ability is triggering on a reaction rather than being an action they do. Which means the opponent has done one or more actions before they damage your ally, which means the monster's only going to be dazzled for their remaining actions. That could be 2, 1, or even 0, but you aren't ever getting 3 dazzled actions out of it by RAW. (Consider: if the Champion is slower than the monster in initiative, the effect will end that round. If the Champion is faster, it will end in the next round before the monster takes its turn).
I can see a justification for houseruling that. As homebrews go, 'next 3 actions by that opponent' would keep the effect consistent with the spell as it is normally cast and consistent no matter whether the monster used their 1st, 2nd, or 3rd action to strike your ally. Just a suggestion. But for GMs who want to play it by RAW, I would say: advise your champion player that their reaction is best used against the first action of an opponent rather than second or third. Their ally will get the damage resistance no matter what, but the dazzle won't be very good against the 2nd action and useless against the third.
Another thing contributing to the confusion is the subject of one of my pet peeves. The tendency of some players to exchange "rounds" for "turns." The terms are not interchangeable
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