So our GM is wondering if it is possible to become fatigued if combat goes on too long... and since he is currently running the fight that brought this up, I am left to ask the question.
What say you? If a combat goes on for too long, do the combatants need to start making Con/Fort saves to avoid becoming fatigued? If so, how many rounds before this starts, what is the DC, and does it increase as the fight goes on (how does it increase)?
Furthermore, if the fighters become fatigued and the combat continues, do they then save vs exhaustion? How would DCs work (same set of questions as before)? Lastly, if they reach exhausted and keep going... same as before and what would come after exhausted? Pass out? What?
We've looked through the entire book, the errata, and this site and found no mention of it and he's insisting that you can. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Combat tends to be counted as 'hustling'. See the rules on overland movement for more info there.
However, it's only likely to matter if your combat takes an hour or so.
this is a really good question and unfortunately i don't have an answer, i was wandering the same thing when i brought up the idea of combat lasting days on end, there are a few legends of great heroes fighting for several days in a row without stopping and i was curious as how this would work.
To my knowledge, there are no actual rules on this.
It would have to be quite an extended combat, I would think...I'd probably go with the following:
You can fight for up to five minutes, plus one minute per point of CON modifier, without fatigue. Beyond this, the character must make a Fort save every minute or become fatigued. The save begins at DC15, and goes up by 1 for every minute. Then repeat the same process once fatigued for exhaustion.
I might actually consider changing the time scale; depends on how active the combat is. In terms of a battle, there will likely be lulls, periods of maneuvering, etc.; I guess it really depends on how "heroic" you want it to be.
Ah, how I love DMs that want to houserule the game to make it more "realistic". I usually say "Ok, start by removing all the magic and the monsters and reducing everyone's HP to about 4..."
If you're still fighting actively after an in-game hour then the encounter was badly made - come up with a reason to move the game along. If there are big periods of waiting in the fight, then both sides can be said to have caught their breaths in the downtime and be ready to go again, and so on.
No reason for the fatigue.
Combat tends to be counted as 'hustling'. See the rules on overland movement for more info there.
However, it's only likely to matter if your combat takes an hour or so.
One hour means 600 rounds. Can you really imagine an encounter lasting that long without any pause? Can you imagine spellcasters able to last that long and stay effective?
Besides, combat movement is approximated as hustling, not combat itself. Combat in itself should be more tiring than that. Making the same kind of parallel, we should look at rules for Running.
Additional Rules
Movement
- Hustle: A hustle is a jog [...] A character moving his speed twice in a single round, or moving that speed in the same round that he or she performs a standard action or another move action, is hustling when he or she moves.
Overland Movement
- Forced March: [...] a Constitution check [...] is required. If the check fails, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued. Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue. It's possible for a character to march into unconsciousness by pushing himself too hard.
Combat
Run
- You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score (RAW question: what happens if I voluntarily stop running for one round then, before starting again? I’m not fatigued at all?), but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
So, if we go down that road, a character would be able to fight for about twenty rounds before being forced to rest for a minute. Since previous threads outlined that the average encounter lasts 5 rounds or so, that particular rule could be used for those of you who play really long fights, without adverse effects on those playing "regular" encounters.
Note that the Running rule doesn't say anything about the character being Fatigued or Exhausted, just that he "must” stop and rest. If I were DMing such long fights and wanted appropriate house rules, I"d introduce the following:
- Definition of a tiredness factor per round-based action:
- heavy: running, full-attack action, standard and move actions
- medium: hustling, using only a standard attack, casting a spell
- light: walking, using only a move action
- none: free action
- A character who’s not tired can use actions up to medium tiredness all day long.
A Fatigued character can use actions up to light tiredness without problem.
An Exhausted character can use actions with no tiredness without side effects.
All other situations incur a worsening of the character’s tiredness, as explained on next point.
- A character can use tiring actions for a number of rounds equal to his Constitution score. After that, he can continue but must make a Constitution check each round. The DC of this check starts at 10 and increases by 1 for each check made the previous rounds. Once this check is failed, the character is more tired than before, and can choose to continue or not.
- If he stops, his increased tiredness stops after as many rounds as he spent using tiring actions.
- If he continues, his increased tiredness continues as well, and, after he stops exerting himself so much, lasts as many rounds as he spent using tiring actions. He can go on with his tired state for a certain number of rounds (re-read this paragraph again). A character who becomes Exhausted as a result can continue but, instead of becoming more tired, he suffers 1d6 of non-lethal damage per round during which he continues his tiring action.
- Examples:
- Louis is a Fighter with a Constitution score of 13, engaged on a fight. He can fight to the utmost of his abilities for 13 rounds, after which he starts rolling Constitution checks. He succeeds his first check but fails his second. He is now Fatigued but decides to continue. He can now fight 13 more rounds before rolling Constitution checks again. He fails his first one and becomes Exhausted, but really wants to bring the enemy down so he continues, incurring 1d6 points of non-lethal damage per round. Two rounds later, the enemy is defeated. This fight has lasted 29 rounds and Louis has taken 2d6 non-lethal damage due to exhaustion. Now, Louis has to rest. He is exhausted for as many rounds spent Fatigued (15 rounds), and then Fatigued for a duration equal to the total time he spend fighting, which is 29 rounds. 73 rounds after the start of the fight, Louis is now ready to start over again.
- Marcus if a Barbarian, already Fatigued, with a Constitution score of 18, and who’s running to escape a forest fire. He can run like this for 18 rounds, after which he rolls his Con check, and succeeds 5 of these checks before failing. He is now Exhausted but has to continue, the fire hot on his heels (he can’t just say “No, I must rest!”). He spends 10 more rounds running, taking 1d6 non-lethal damage for each. He finally reaches a river, swims like a devil to get to the other side, and falls to the bank, unconscious from exhaustion.
What do you think about this?
Definition of a tiredness factor per round-based action:
- heavy: running, full-attack action, standard and move actions
- medium: hustling, using only a standard attack, casting a spell
- light: walking, using only a move action
- none: free action
I would argue that casting a spell should be a heavy action. Otherwise, what heavy action is a caster likely to do. I will admit this is more personal preference.
"standard and move actions" means taking one of each during your turn, right?
I might define the levels as
- heavy: full round action, standard and move action
- medium: standard action (no move action), two move actions
- light: single move action
- none: free actions
This avoids problems about "how tiring is it to channel energy" or "how tiring is it to use this class that came out in 2011".
Swift actions might need to be accounted for. Possibly any spell-casting or SLA should move the action up one level. Or you can say that they are so quick that they are not tiring. But it should be clear they interact.
What happens if I spend 5 rounds full attacking, then spend a single round doing just total defense. Does my count reset? I would say that a non-tiring round decreases the count by one. In my example, after a round of full defense, it would be as if I had spent 4 rounds full attacking.
This would let you fight for hours without becoming exhausted, although would have to pace yourself, by limiting yourself to only single attacks each round. (Let's hope you have great cleave or improved vital strike.) You could go into a burst in an emergency, but that is likely to force you to spend several rounds of doing nothing to recover from it.
I would argue that casting a spell should be a heavy action. Otherwise, what heavy action is a caster likely to do. I will admit this is more personal preference."standard and move actions" means taking one of each during your turn, right?
I might define the levels as
- heavy: full round action, standard and move action
- medium: standard action (no move action), two move actions
- light: single move action
- none: free actions
This avoids problems about "how tiring is it to channel energy" or "how tiring is it to use this class that came out in 2011".Swift actions might need to be accounted for. Possibly any spell-casting or SLA should move the action up one level. Or you can say that they are so quick that they are not tiring. But it should be clear they interact.
When I wrote it, I was trying to separate what I thought was physically tiring and what wasn't. Your definition is broader, and an aply for everything, and that's good. About Swift actions, I'd sort them with free actions in the "none" category.
What happens if I spend 5 rounds full attacking, then spend a single round doing just total defense. Does my count reset? I would say that a non-tiring round decreases the count by one. In my example, after a round of full defense, it would be as if I had spent 4 rounds full attacking.This would let you fight for hours without becoming exhausted, although would have to pace yourself, by limiting yourself to only single attacks each round. (Let's hope you have great cleave or improved vital strike.) You could go into a burst in an emergency, but that is likely to force you to spend several rounds of doing nothing to recover from it.
I thought about this problem, which also happen with the Running RAW, but I haven't expanded on it. My take is that two rounds spent in lighter activity removes one round spent in heavier activity.
Example: Alia the rogue (Con 14) starts an encounter with three rounds full-attacking before spending two rounds moving away to get a hiding spot, from where she starts full-attacking again. The two rounds spent in medium activity counts again one of the rounds spent in heavy activity, so she'll start rolling Con checks at round #17 of the encounter.
Note that we are speaking about increasing the rules complexity, there. Plus, it's not for everyday situations. I'd suggest that only groups who regularly have really long encounters use them.
If you're going for realism and want to get a good idea of what a full-round of attacks would be like for an extended duration, then go at a punching bag with everything you have for as long as you can. Make sure you time it. Most unfit individuals are done before the 30 second mark. Now add on armor and an 4-12 pound weapon, 12-15 pound shield, and a backpack full of gear.
Admittedly, the heroes are in really good shape, but my group houserules a DC 10 + (number of rounds past 20) fortitude save each round after the two minute mark. Failure means the character is fatigued and resets the DC. Failure again leads to exhausted and resets the DC. Failure again means the character can't do anything but collapse in exhaustion.
If you're going for realism and want to get a good idea of what a full-round of attacks would be like for an extended duration, then go at a punching bag with everything you have for as long as you can. Make sure you time it. Most unfit individuals are done before the 30 second mark. Now add on armor and an 4-12 pound weapon, 12-15 pound shield, and a backpack full of gear.
Admittedly, the heroes are in really good shape, but my group houserules a DC 10 + (number of rounds past 20) fortitude save each round after the two minute mark. Failure means the character is fatigued and resets the DC. Failure again leads to exhausted and resets the DC. Failure again means the character can't do anything but collapse in exhaustion.
I still want to know how anyone has 20 round combats, are we talking a mass battles ruleset here or something? Ive almost never seen combats go over 10 rounds. If they do usually you are on your way to a party wipe.
I still want to know how anyone has 20 round combats, are we talking a mass battles ruleset here or something? Ive almost never seen combats go over 10 rounds. If they do usually you are on your way to a party wipe.
Well, I usually do battles in phases where there's no room for a moment's rest. In the first round three orcs attack. Three rounds later, a troll and two goblins show up. At round 8 the final five orcs show up after the goblins sounded a horn for reinforcements.
This approach gives the party more to think about than hack and slash. IE if we target the enemy with the horn, that may prevent additional enemies from showing up. This approach regularly sees combat approaches 15 rounds (in usually an hour of real time.)
Secondly, if you've ever run an epic game you know that a BBEG with healing abilities or large amounts of minions on the battlefield can lend to battles of, get this, EPIC proportions. Honestly, when you're fighting monsters with over a thousand hit points you're going to have battles that reach into the tens of rounds.
I still want to know how anyone has 20 round combats, are we talking a mass battles ruleset here or something? Ive almost never seen combats go over 10 rounds. If they do usually you are on your way to a party wipe.
Well, I usually do battles in phases where there's no room for a moment's rest. In the first round three orcs attack. Three rounds later, a troll and two goblins show up. At round 8 the final five orcs show up after the goblins sounded a horn for reinforcements.
This approach gives the party more to think about than hack and slash. IE if we target the enemy with the horn, that may prevent additional enemies from showing up. This approach regularly sees combat approaches 15 rounds (in usually an hour of real time.)
Secondly, if you've ever run an epic game you know that a BBEG with healing abilities or large amounts of minions on the battlefield can lend to battles of, get this, EPIC proportions. Honestly, when you're fighting monsters with over a thousand hit points you're going to have battles that reach into the tens of rounds.
Well i think epic characters are kind of moot, they shouldnt get tired, they are epic for christs sake. They can walk on water with just skill ranks, i dont think combat will tire them.
In terms of your sequencial battles do you count this as one encounter or many when determining CR? Cuz it seems like it'd go up really fast or the monsters will be easily dispatched.
Well i think epic characters are kind of moot, they shouldnt get tired, they are epic for christs sake. They can walk on water with just skill ranks, i dont think combat will tire them.
In terms of your sequencial battles do you count this as one encounter or many when determining CR? Cuz it seems like it'd go up really fast or the monsters will be easily dispatched.
It's considered multiple encounters but I usually increase the CR of the last encounter by one or two when considering rewards.
I can't beleive no one has posted
Of course haven't you ever heard of combat fatigue
and then there is combat fatigues
and that you can combat fatigue
Either your humor translate poorly to text or I'm dense. What are you trying to say?
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Combat fatigue
n.
Posttraumatic stress disorder resulting from wartime combat or similar experiences. No longer in scientific use. Also called battle fatigue, shell shock, Also called war neurosis.Combat fatigues
n.
combat uniforms, as opposed to 'display' dress or formal uniform worn at parades and functions.combats fatigue (AKA you can combat fatigue)
v.
something which helps you overcome fatigue
Err.. ok.
Great ideas guys, thanks.
And the puns... -_-
Ah, how I love DMs that want to houserule the game to make it more "realistic". I usually say "Ok, start by removing all the magic and the monsters and reducing everyone's HP to about 4..."
ha! I had to quote that cause its damn funny!