I don't think I'm following the argument here. Surely you want to be using up your versatile vials every encounter if possible, as they refill unlike your dailies. What would you be saving them for by using daily consumables in their stead? There isn't really another more effective way to spend the vials that wouldn't also work together with Quick Bomber, as far as I'm aware, and they go 'to waste' if not used at all. A feat like Combine that lets you burn through them for fewer actions is a godsent.
As for the third action you're gaining, there are plenty of uses. You could instead do the triple elixir thing with versatile vials you mentioned, but it's kind of action inefficient and probably overkill in terms of buffing. And then you're sitting on that awkward last vial that is now unattractive to use because you don't have enough to Combine anymore. If I really wanted to start an encounter by triple buffing, I'd make one of them a prepped elixir and the other two from vials. That would give me all three buffs AND the free vial throw on round 1.
What I mean is that there are multiple buffing sequences you can use and not all of them ends with a free vial. If your prefered buffing sequence is the one ending with a free vial then you'll see the point of having Quick Bomber even if you don't use Bombs, otherwise you won't.
The L9 Feature Double Brew allows every Alch to make 2 items in the same action.
You are talking about something from Level 9. You have to compare what other classes can do at that level, say, a Wizard. Frankly the Alchemist becomes a weaker and weaker class the higher level you go compared to other classes, they kinda need a boost.
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Complete novice but my assumption with this feat is that it simply eliminates the action cost of converting a Versatile Vial into something else during a turn.
The confusing part is that is seems from the wording that you can ONLY do this for "bomb" like alchemy items.
Throwing more than one bomb typically is a waste, the value is gaining that extra action. So now example... 1)Move, 2)Quick bomb a enemy with a fire bomb, 3)Put up your shield
I think the way to phrase the benefit of Quick Bomber is:
"Any time you don't already have the bomb in your hand, Quick Bomber will reduce the action cost of a bomb by 1 action."
That specific phrasing is why the Double Brew combo is getting so much talk, as you essentially get the bomb throw for outright 0 Actions.
You are totally correct about the real upside being that the extra action can be spent on anything else, and is not required to be bomb-related. So long as you used a bomb that turn, you are getting 1 more action.
And getting more actions is the most powerful effect in the 3 action pf2 system.
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And getting more actions is the most powerful effect in the 3 action pf2 system.
While it's nice to see you at least being a bit more friendly to Quick Bomber, I really have to hammer home that bombs are entire category of tools you throw to mess with foes, it's unhelpful to limit their framing to exist only as damage attacks.
A single uncommon bomb, the Blindpepper, is a 15ft radius AoE !reflex! save or blind 1 turn then dazzled 1 turn.
No poison trait, only visual.
And when poison immunity is not a problem, Skunks may be the very best debuff tool in the game.*
Skunk bombs are made from the concentrated odors of xulgaths, hezrous, and other creatures with natural or supernatural stench. The bomb grants an item bonus to attack rolls and deals poison damage and poison splash damage. Any creature hit by the bomb or in its splash area must attempt a Fortitude saving throw with a DC based on the bomb's type. Creatures in the splash area treat the results of their saving throw as one step better.
Critical Success The target is unaffected.
Success The target is sickened 1.
Failure The target is sickened 1 and slowed 1 while sickened.
Critical Failure The target is blinded for 1 round, sickened 2, and slowed 1 while sickened.
*If you can throw them for 1A.
All of which is enabled by Quick Bomber.
(And persistent damage bombs still comfortably out-damage Strikes until you get 2 property dmg runes where it becomes a tossup, which is a long damn time).
While I don't keep/throw base damage bombs on my most-weapon-invested Alch/Ranger/Wiz, I would absolutely be crazy to forgo Quick Bomber after it became Quick Alchemy compatible.
I was never unfriendly towards quick bomber.
From one of your previous posts:
Once more, there are only real benefits if you are already planning to use bombs. Which I would argue is about half the builds you can do on an alchemist or less.
The feat does absolutely nothing if you are wielding a weapon, the feat is bad if you have heavy armor, the feat isn't helping in rounds where you can't afford to increase your MAP (getting pitiful damage while losing a ton of damage from your main attack basically), and etc.
Realistically, the feat is great for bombers, great for chirurgeons going with Dex, terrible for Tox, MAYBE useful in some very specific Mutagenist builds, and etc, but for a ton of builds, it does absolutely nothing.
This registers as pretty unfriendly to me.
Question: Can I be effective throwing bombs as a chirurgeon and dealing damage? How would this be built effectively, and of course, healing as a chirurgeon.
Question: Can I be effective throwing bombs as a chirurgeon and dealing damage? How would this be built effectively, and of course, healing as a chirurgeon.
Yes, you can. But you'll have to be less of a Chirurgeon to make it work.
In my opinion, it's better to look at Bestial Mutagen as your main offensive option for a Chirurgeon as it doesn't impact negatively your healing ability.
I'll take a look, thanks
Question: Can I be effective throwing bombs as a chirurgeon and dealing damage? How would this be built effectively, and of course, healing as a chirurgeon.
I think the most helpful question for you to consider is how many of your turns do you want to spend attacking, and how many times do you guess you will attack each specific foe. If you really see yourself making an attack every turn, even vs a single boss, then you will need something else besides bombs for that, as you will run out of alchemy. (does not have to be a weapon, could be magic, etc).
For support/healers, you may be tempted to skip attacking every few rounds, and the lower this attack frequency, the less pressure you have to optimize your damage.
If you guesstimate that you'll want to attack each foe once or twice, (and if you take Quick Bomber), I think you can contribute damage quite fine with mostly bombs.
With the way bombs jump a huuuge gap from Lvl 3 --> 11, that Lvl 3 gold price means that you can afford to craft/buy some and keep 1 of each on your belt, in case you don't want to spend VVs in that moment.
The way that persistent damage works is that in exchange for it being delayed *after* the foe gets their actions (so if your attack makes the difference on a KO, then they get 1 more turn), the damage has a very high chance to repeat.
the DC 15 flat check is a 30% to end it.
These are the odds of passing that check at least once after X number of tries:
1: 30% ------- 2: 51% ------- 3: 65.7% -------- 4: 76%
So in general, your persistent damage bombs have the caveats of not stacking (you gain no benefit of applying the same persistent damage twice) and needing time to deal the damage.
In exchange, you get:
Always doing normal 1x damage (0 fail)
Very safe bet that you deal 2x damage (1 fail)
and a coinflip of getting 3x damage (2 fails)
The amount of weapon optimization it takes to exceed that, spending class Feats on Archeytping, etc, is pretty high. (but weapon strikes don't cost you number-limited bombs)
You can definitely go the weapon route, and some options like Ranger can help both bombs and weapons, but I think Chiurgeon thrives more when the healing pressure is removed from their alchemy and your outside-Alchemist dips are done to get more healing/support options.
This is because the few alchemy items that actually compare favorably to other groups like potions/spells, is mostly the bombs. Meaning that you gain a lot of benefit if you can use less alchemy on healing, and leave more for bombs. (The Skunk bomb is outright better than most spells at its job)
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If you still have the Feat budget to boost your offense, that's great. You may even find that you use enough bombs that something like Debilitating Bomb or Expanded Splash are worth it as a Chirurgeon. Even if you spend most actions on support plus a few persistent bomb attacks, I still very much recommend you try to keep up with runes, but where you put them is up to you. (and I recommend begging your GM to use the old version of Alchemist's Goggles that have the +to hit in them)
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The main thing I'd recommend against is any attempt at being a high dps damage dealer, Chirurgeon is a very bad chassis for it.
It may seem weird, but something like a Fighter Dedication for just Reactive Striker would boost your damage more than almost any super-scripted ancestry feat weapon plus Archetype shenanigans.
And in general, freeing up actions for more stuff rather than super-enhancing your attacks is the way to go with Alchemist.
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In my opinion, healing as a Chirurgeon is great, but only if you realize that you need to go outside of alchemy. This gives you more resources for powerful debuff bombs/items that you can't really craft (because if a bomb like Skunk has a save DC, you can only get it to scale if you use your class Alchemy stuff to make it).
It can also help cover Alchemy healing's main weakness, which is burst healing/basic chunk heals. You used to be able to force it with a large number of Elixirs of Life, but now you really will run out of alchemy items if you use those on the regular.
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As far as which non-Alchemy options I recommend, first up there's the skill feat will get you Battle Medicine. You will need to wear a 1 bulk Healer's toolkit for it, but it's very worth that trade.
That big chunky heal is kinda non-negotiable to take as a Chirurgeon, as you already get to use Crafting for your Medicine.
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If you are willing to spend Class Feats, and if we are *just* talking cost:benefit, I would first recommend Witch for 3 (or more) Feats. It matches your INT stat, and will get you a familiar right out of the box (and if you do not want to deal with a familiar, you can just pick 2 passive abilities and leave them in your backpack or a tattoo or something).
That will give you 3 total spells per day, but also full list spellcasting of that tradition, which is huge because spell scrolls of Heal/Soothe are waaaay better healing than elixirs, and are cheaper per gold cost. You can/should also get a cheap Staff to get more mileage out of your spellcasting.
The last Witch Feat to release the lockout is your preference, but if you want more healing, the focus spell Life Boost is a really great 1A supplement that's super easy to squeeze into your combat actions.
Cauldron will add magical potion making to your alchemical elixirs, which can be great.
You can enhance your familiar to make it even more helpful, etc.
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Just below Witch, I would recommend Medic. If you value keeping things simple, and don't want to mess with full spellcasting on top of alchemy, then this is #1. It's a big enhancement to your Battle Medicine, and if you are trying to make the most out of every class feat, Medic has the rare option to end the Archetype lockout via taking skill feats.
Medic is a good paring due to it being a big chunky heal, but there's no option to keep backup scrolls, and once you use it up, it's on cooldown. That can be scary.
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My pick for a close 3rd, which might surpass Medic with enough time, is wood Kineticist. This Dedication requires the CON stat, which is very doable for an Alchemist to have.
Very importantly, the impulses scale with your PC level, and support options here have no penalty like they would if you were using Kin to attack foes.
First standout here is Timber Sentinel. It will take a lot of actions, but that pairs well with an Alchemist who only has so many items, and no other big-action considerations like spells or special feat-attacks.
Timber Sentinel is amazing due to it being damage mitigation, and that does not conflict with any of your other options. It does have anti-synergy with Numbing Tonics, but has synergy with your Soothing instead.
Most importantly for the tree is that because it doesn't heal, there is no cooldown on it's ability to help. If you take the Feat, you will always, always have a tool to block Strikes that scales as a max Rank spell.
There is also the water option, but you would take this if you want the great Reaction of Deflecting Wave, as there is little to pair with the good heal option of Ocean's Balm. (and Alchemist struggles to access good Reactions, so this can be a better choice if you're trying to be balanced.)
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Unfortunately, Healing Bombs are not really good unless you choose spells as your main mean of attack. As for Healing Quick Vials, by default it doesn't work with Quick Bomber as you don't Strike with them. If the GM allows it, it greatly changes the value of Quick Bomber on a Chirurgeon.
I think a lot more than "half or less" of Alchemists have an interest in throwing a bomb or two per fight.
With how little value or how specific some weapon boosting Feats can get, spending an L1 feat to enable quick bombing debuffs holds great appeal. I'd argue even for even a heavily weapon-invested Alch, spending 1A on a Skunk is great value.
I'd also argue that the VVs change, which imposes a new "use it, or it's wasted" power budget, further incentives that low dmg debuff throw for all alchemists.
And again, I want to restate that Alchemist is a terrible chassis to use for a Strike-focused PC. Lagging accuracy, simple weapons, avg/poor saves, etc. It's better than a caster, but Alchemist really is not a martial class.
The more you can get done as an Alch without invoking MAP, the better.
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And again, I want to restate that Alchemist is a terrible chassis to use for a Strike-focused PC. Lagging accuracy, simple weapons, avg/poor saves, etc. It's better than a caster, but Alchemist really is not a martial class.
With the buff to damage and the master proficiency at level 15, the Alchemist is more a martial than it has ever been. Taking Mutagens into account I think we can consider it a full-blown martial offensively. Defensively, it's not, it's much closer to a caster.
With how little value or how specific some weapon boosting Feats can get, spending an L1 feat to enable quick bombing debuffs holds great appeal.
It's a question of opportunity cost.
Chirurgeons want the Familiar and/or Soothing Vials, and they have a full list of interesting feats so they will certainly pass.Mutagenists will prefer the Familiar as it's a bigger action economy enhancer than Quick Bomber. They have much more space to add Quick Bomber to their build but as they will certainly be Strength-based the gain is smaller. Also, players tend to dislike this kind of small gains that don't really make sense compared to their whole build. They'll certainly take a more thematic feat even if it's slightly less optimized.
Toxicologist will in general lack the hands to use it, especially since the thrown-based Toxicologist is no more really a thing.
I'd argue even for even a heavily weapon-invested Alch, spending 1A on a Skunk is great value.
Not really. As you are already using Quick Alchemy with Double Brew and certainly Combine Elixir it means that the Skunk Bomb will prevent you from Combining Elixir again. So once again a high opportunity cost. Also, on a non-Bomber Skunk Bombs are rather niche as you don't want to splash your allies. So you'll need quite an alignment of stars to use Quick Alchemy at a moment where you can throw a Skunk Bomb safely.
Anyway, overall, this conversation is going in circle. I really feel you lack confidence or experience with weapon/unarmed Alchemists. They do well, much better than you state it.
Man, this is just wild to hear.
Especially now that taking the Alchemist Archetype does not have a lagging item level, *literally* every martial class is better suited to get in melee with an unarmed build over Alchemist.
Again, there is really no way to say "Alchemist makes for a good martial" without making all such statements meaningless. There is no class worse than Alchemist for running up and Striking. Sure it can be fun, but that doesn't change the numbers and the Feats.
The whole point of Alchemist is flexibility and having the entire item list ready at all times. Pigeonholing yourself into "maining" a specific mutagen and pretending to be a martial is antithetical to the class concept.
Do whatever you find fun, but this is akin to a druid only ever fighting in a polymorphed form. The system has expectations that the druid will make some other use of their spellcasting, and while they can have fun with it, we can acknowledge that such a playstyle is throwing away much of their power budget.
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You should know better than to list the mutagens as some kind of solution. The higher a PC's base number is raw, the *more* they benefit from a flat bonus. An Alchemist getting a +2 is great, but a Fighter with that same +2 is *much* more scary. And mutagens have very real downsides that do not get talked about enough. -2 to a save for +1 to hit is trade, not a simple buff.
And again, any martial dipping into Alchemist can make better use of mutagens than an Alchemist can. All the Mutagenist features will not have a Muta do better at "martialing" than a Fighter w/ an Alch dip.
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The level 2 Feats are pretty bleh, so going both Quick Bomber and Familiar is a great choice, and FA builds have the archetype side that can grant a familiar as well.
Prevention is better than healing, which is why stealing actions via Skunk slow and action cost to retch is a top-tier action even for a Chi using the same resource as your elixirs. Same notion for debuffs that make foes take more damage, the more you help your team kill quickly, the less healing you have to do. Limiting yourself to healing elixirs is very smallminded.
Even low R Glue Bombs can be worth spending MAP on. Crazy low static DC, but it is not a save, foes instead must burn an action to remove the glue or stay slowed the whole fight. There's a couple items like that, but iirc Glue stands out for being Quick Bomber compatible w/ 0 Draw-dodge shenanigans needed.
I have no idea why you are so allergic to the notion that what may be the best debuff in the game (skunk) is a bad spend of resources if the specific Alch is a Chirurgeon. It's frankly bizarre.
As I play more post-remaster, I think I'm going to be prepping fewer elixirs and more debuff bombs, ~3/4, as the action saving nature of Combine is exclusive to VVs, and I can still chuck a belt bomb for 1A thanks to Quick Bomber.
I still have yet to actually use a single Elixir of Life post-remaster (though I've wasted prep items on a few...), but I have yet to reach that L13 feature.
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Man, this is just wild to hear.
I'm proud to astonish you. I'm playing a reach mutagenist in PFS (so it is not because of the party) and it's now level 7. And it's awesome! Damage-wise, I compete with Fighter and Barbarian thanks to the crazy amount of Reflexive Strikes I make. Defense-wise I'm paper made, so I have to navigate the battlefield with intelligence to avoid being focused. But it's far from impossible considering my crazy reach.
Pigeonholing yourself into "maining" a specific mutagen and pretending to be a martial is antithetical to the class concept.
You need a main offensive option as an Alchemist, so every Alchemist will "pigeonhole" themselves into "maining" a specific offensive option. The Bomber is actually the less flexible Alchemist build considering the crazy cost of Bombs (both in feats and in Versatile Vials).
I don't know what you were trying to say but your sentence doesn't make much sense so I assume it doesn't convey your thoughts properly.And again, any martial dipping into Alchemist can make better use of mutagens than an Alchemist can.
An Alchemist dip gives you 4 uses of Quick Alchemy. And you have to start all your fights by wasting 2 actions to be under a Mutagen. And you'd better not use a 2-handed weapon otherwise it's 3. So, no, the Alchemist is better at using Mutagens than most martials with an Alchemist dip.
-2 to a save for +1 to hit is trade, not a simple buff.
It's both a trade and a buff. You'll obviously attack much more often than you'll roll a specific save.
Even low R Glue Bombs can be worth spending MAP on. Crazy low static DC, but it is not a save, foes instead must burn an action to remove the glue or stay slowed the whole fight. There's a couple items like that, but iirc Glue stands out for being Quick Bomber compatible w/ 0 Draw-dodge shenanigans needed.
I'll be honest, I have higher standards than you. Glue Bomb is so bad I don't care having the Formula on anything but a Bomb-using Alchemist.
Also, I have a question: What is your experience with the Alchemist?
Because Shroudb has a lot of experience with Toxicologist, Ottdmk has experience with both Bomber and Mutagenist, I have experience with Mutagenist, a bomb-oriented Chirurgeon and a full on Chirurgeon and we all try to explain you that there's more to the Alchemist than just bombing. Sure, experiences can't be transferred as is and you have all the right to disagree with us but your discourse roughly deny our experience, which we obviously all take quite badly. We won't reach any form of agreement if you deny our experience, so you can either consider that our experience is wrong but that ends the conversation or try to adapt your point of view by taking into consideration our experience. Make your choice and state it, it'll be faster.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't PFS games incredibly easy in terms of difficulty? If so, I'd rather see how well your builds hold up to tougher tests before trusting that said builds are awesome. I'm sure it's fun to play but from an optimization standpoint I need to know that it's been tested against the hardest the system can throw at you rather than the easiest.
No experience can be generalized. I can play it in the toughest situations and you could blame the GM from being nice or the rest of the party from compensating my character's weaknesses. An experience is just that: An experience.
Now, when I say it's awesome, I state it by comparing it to my fellow PCs. Because, obviously, if I'm carried by the more capable characters I won't feel awesome. Thing is, I have been the one carrying the party on few occasions, which in my opinion is a sign of strength.
Ultimately, it's just a mix of my word and my ability to analyze the game. Take it for what it is.
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This ended up being exactly the example I was talking about, and my pessimistic worry confirmed.
Bidi, that build sounds super fun, but it's impossible to avoid the reality that yes, such unarmed attacking could be performed better with any other martial, most especially a Fighter/Alch.
Saying an Archetype dip is more than the single Feat. When I said using mutagens as well as the Alch, you should have understood I was talking about the Advanced Alch archetype Feat, which provides the prep items that can be slotted into a collar.
It's the same means by which that Mutagenist of yours needs a min of 2 Feats to take Fighter Dedication + Reactive Striker. That right there mirrors the Alch Dedication + Advanced Alch.
As mentioned before, the advantage the Fighter has to be a striker due to its chassis is insane. Saves, HP, accuracy, etc, are not small things that can be compensated for via some elixir buffs. Even just in the arena of damage, it's honestly too abnormal a claim for me to believe that your damage is competitive with those 2 martials. Though, I'm guessing it's "competitive" and not actually competitive. A comparative -4/-2 to hit will do that.
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Opposite the Fighter/Alch is the Alchemist/Fighter
The key advantage the Alch/Fighter has in that comparison is the quantity and diversity of their alchemy. Feeding allies some Energy Mutagens to match a surprise elemental attack, throwing a turn 1 Skunk to hit 4 foes at once before they spread out, etc.
If your alchemy uses can be covered by that which is provided by taking Alchemist as an Archetype, then it should not be difficult to acknowledge that the PC would benefit a whole hellofa lot from the base chassis of a Fighter.
If you never get close to running out of alchemy items, now more than ever, you're "not really playing Alchemist" in the same vein as a caster that never goes through their spells.
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I'm not being dismissive of your fun, but you've got to recognize the numeric reality. You have not mentioned how that muta makes use of recharging VVs via ____ items/strategies, and have only been out-of-hand dismissive of using bombs. Like it or not, bombs are the poster item group of Alchemist. Claiming it's normal to shun bombs is like a Cleric shunning Heal just because they are a warpriest.
Your continued presentation of such a specific "experience" as if it's general guidance, and without being up front with the hidden caveats of that guidance, is not helpful to the conversation.
I am absolutely annoyed that it took you this long to "reveal" that you were indeed specifically lauding a certain PC alch w/ a fighter dedication while discussing that performance is if it were a baseline alchemist thing (I pessimistically guessed you were praising a certain PC because you are usually great about being objective/honest, but are obviously off the mark here).
It's really not okay that somehow I was first to mention how a "martial alchemist" would likely want to take Fighter + Reactive Strikes before you did. Despite that, you were selling the Alch as a striker when you talking about that build the whole time.
And yes, now that you've finally revealed that it's an Alch/Fighter, it's a rather obvious follow up to compare against the Fighter/Alch.
For what it's worth, even as a bomber alchemist, there's definitely been times I've just not used Quick Bomber, and while I took both Quick Bomber and Far Lobber due to being human the second was far more useful.
(Admittedly, my 'brilliant' plan was to take Ranger Dedication at 2nd because fights kept starting at long range and I went on to take Gravity Weapon which further encouraged making only one throw so it might just be that I had really bad ideas)
Definitely check if your GM allows you to throw bombs at objects.
Objects have a static AC, so you can still land those hits at MAP.
Now that splash AoE only happens on hit, this became a much bigger deal.
Once you stack splash feats, attacking objects when at MAP has appeal, especially considering the free QV bombs have as much splash as anything else.
As for proper bombs to use at MAP, one standout is the Blindpepper, which is a pure debuff AoE save-or-blind cloud. If you ever have plenty of VVs and want to get some debuffs out quickly, that's a great pick.
L12 has Boulder Seed, which looks fun (though I've not used it yet).
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First of all, thank you for explaining me how I play my character and giving me the benefits/drawbacks of my own build.
You know you can ask me questions?
I'll give you some examples:
- What are the benefits you see in your build compared to a Fighter with Alchemist Dedication?
Well, Trip, thanks for asking this question. Both builds have not much in common.
My Mutagenist is first and foremost an Alchemist, he poisons allies weapons, gives them Mutagens, provides Elixirs for non-combat situations and thanks to the remaster he's also providing skill item bonuses to everyone during skill challenges (rather common in PFS). He also heals when needed even if he can't attack and heal simultaneously due to handedness, but sometimes all you need is healing.
A Fighter on the other hand would have higher damage output but would meet a serious issue: Due to the Titanic Fury Cocktail I use, I end up with an absolutely crappy AC. My character is as such unable to tank, something that is not much of an issue for an Alchemist as the class is not meant to tank but that on the other hand is basic for a Fighter. So a Fighter/Alch would end up a as one dimensional character solely focused on it's damage output.
And as a side note, when you consider the indirect damage my Alchemist inflicts through poisons and buffs, the difference in damage would not be that significant. Overall, I wouldn't encourage such a build on a Fighter unless all you care about is rolling high attack dice.
- How do you use the alchemy items provided by your class?
Well, as I need to both poison my weapon and keep a Mutagen active at all times I obviously use the 2 Versatile Vials I gain every 10 minutes. I also use a lot my Advanced Alchemy Items as they allow me to poison my allies weapons. As for the rest of my Versatile Vials, I tend to be rather liberal with their use as they are not key to my character effectiveness in combat. So when an item is useful during exploration, I don't hesitate to produce it and don't ask the party for a 10-minute rest to get my Versatile Vial back. It's also useful during combat to produce Elixirs of Life, even if it happens rarely. It will certainly change at level 9 as I'll maintain 3 constant boosts and won't get to +5 Intelligence before level 15 so there'll be slightly more stress on my Versatile Vials.
Your continued presentation of such a specific "experience" as if it's general guidance
Other people have spoken about their experience. I just don't speak instead of them.
Also, all experiences are "specific". Yours is, too (even if I happen to have a similar experience and... I've stopped playing this character as it was too complicated for the actual impact it was having).Like it or not, bombs are the poster item group of Alchemist.
Bombs were the basic Alchemist offensive option, now it's Bestial Mutagen. A new edition just hit the shelves and I'm rather aware of the changes it brought.
The more context and info that you can condense and share, the more useful insight can be gleaned from that sharing by others.
Insisting that Alch can be competitive damage dealers with martials lacks context, and a difference in baseline assumptions (such as the unmentioned reactive striker) can mislead.
Sharing the full context of your PC and how it plays as an Alch is genuinely helpful, thank you.
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Also, all experiences are "specific". Yours is, too (even if I happen to have a similar experience and... I've stopped playing this character as it was too complicated for the actual impact it was having).
Exactly why we ought to endeavor to pull back from our experiences and use our insights to speak to the generalities and numbers. I use 1 or 2 bombs per combat w/ my L11 Chi, yet I can still see how much the Quick Bomber buff that includes Quick Alchemy has changed the class.
Previously, Quick Bomber required that pre-commitment of prep items to function.
This was a Bomber pain point I underestimated. The huge list of bombs and the sometimes big, sometimes subtle variance really wanted to use the full-book perk of Quick Alchemy, but really hated the action tax that feature used to mandate.
Where a Bomber/Alchemist might have previously prepped a trio/pair of Glue to bait out an action to wipe it away, now they can keep them as a VV, see a foe has no acid on them, and instead pick a Goo Bomb for the same wipe-temptation plus damage.
When one has to commit to prep, it is only logical to pick the most generic, always useful options. Before the remaster, there was a large systemic pressure to "unga-bunga" and throw only the most basic bombs that is now heavily reduced. While this was felt most by Bombers, it's very relevant for all Alchemists.
That wrinkle compounded with the DC bombs being unable to scale when prepped. Now that it's not a 2x action penalty to option-select what exact bomb to use via Quick Alchemy, it keeps a lot of pressure away from wasting prep items to cover your bases w/ unused options, and properly adds the DC bombs as viable tools.
That is an example of a small fundamental shift brought on by the remaster.
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And even without much playtime w/ Handwraps, I can see that the option to strike, then throw some Blindpepper at the floor via Double Brew Combine for 3 VVs, followed by feeding that elixir, is a crazy good turn. Focus spells are typically entire feats for the option of their single spell in combat. One L1 feat to bring all bombs into 1A (or better) action cost is amazing, even with considerations for limited focus points VVs. (and again, I've stacked everything onto alch weapons, and I know how hard it is numerically for even that to compete vs boring old persistent damage (pre elemental property runes at least, just started Stolen Fate and now have said runes; TBD))
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I think just talking about the bomb list like a spell list ought to help here.
It's not the whole item list, but Quick Bomber takes all those bombs from 2A into 1A. A feat to reduce a subset of spells from 2A into 1A in a similar manner would have casters going crazy.
I do not think it's contentious to say that the majority of players find that specific Feat to be an extremely good pick, even when not playing a Bomber. It's a good enough pick that, just like pre-remaster, players post about Quick Bomber being a feat tax.
If a player can look at the bomb list and think the benefits of cutting those actions in half is not worth it, that is great.
I don't care if I disagree w/ anyone, only that we are on the same page and making informed decisions. When a hyperbolic statement like Alchs doing as much melee dmg as martials is said w/o qualifiers, that's well over what I consider being factually egregious and misleading to readers, and find such claims worth interrogating.
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Bombs were the basic Alchemist offensive option, now it's Bestial Mutagen. A new edition just hit the shelves and I'm rather aware of the changes it brought.
Saying that like it's an obvious and normal thing is also rather strange. As mediocre/poor as it may be, all alchemists just had a basic infinite bomb put into their kit with Quick Vials, and yet you seem to say that a buff to one specific item has shaken the Alchemist meta so much as to claim it has become their basic offense over bombs as a broad category. That's... a very extraordinary claim to make, IMO.
I need to say outright that I don't think you are stepping back away from your own experience and looking at this from a distance.
Especially in a system that has gained options like Skunks, Energy Mutagen (for much more flexible & buffable weapon strikes), grafts for unarmed strikes, and even more Archetype options like Clawdancer for 1d8 finesse kicks. And Quick Bomber becoming Quick Alch compatible.
Regardless of what else has changed, Bestial gaining a single point of AC and baking in Striking runes is a nice buff, but not a game changing one. It's about as small and incremental as a direct buff could be, tbh.
I hope that you can see that Bestial is still a single tool to enhance/enable unarmed strikes, and really does not define the class as a standout "must have/use." Its very nature as a mutagen is uniquely exclusive, and planning on it locks away all other mutagens from consideration, while other additions like Numbing/Soothing/Skunks/etcetera do not.
[...]A chirurgeon can be either dex or str based. Str based will be wearing heavy armor and be in the frontline, having easier access to those that need healing and soaking hits himself which is good overall since he's so tanky. A dex based will be using bombs and trade off the ability to do that high of a damage, soaking damage, and being next to the allies more commonly hurt for some extra survivability of his own (since he won't be in the thick of it) plus the conditions that the bombs can provide.
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Also important to mention that a STR Chir can also go Athletics and Trip like a Muta, which is an amazing 0-resource use of MAP, and Trip can gain reach via holding a 1-H weapon.
Main problem with STR imo is that the touch range of alch stuff makes melee super annoying. You need to touch both foes and allies, which does not play nice with flanking.
DEX Chi can still be at the front line just fine, imo the weakening of Trip is a bigger game-changer than the loss of Strike damage. Bombs are still short range, and half the appeal of Alch Goggles is to bomb over your buddy's shoulder with no cover penalty. And DEX doesn't extend the reach-range of elixirs, etc.
I've tanked as a DEX Chi in Gatewalkers, imo the +1 to AC of heavy armor is not really option enabling/disabling. The main pain point there was honestly my low Will save, and that I really had to spend a full turn buffing up every fight (when tanking was needed; the option to see the battle and *not* go into tank mode is a very important plus of playing Alch like that).
That said, after Stone Body + Soothing + Numbing were active, the ability for the tank to always be in range of my Bttle Md and other touch-healing was super good. Once was fully encircled by 8+ zombies, and tanked it fine. Wish I had Blindpepper in my book then, that would have been super cool to use there.
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For almost all Chi's I'd highly recommend DEX, and will say it's not a good idea to leave DEX low unless you really know what you want, such as if you're playing an Archetype first before alchemist, like those Wrestlers.
My Stolen Fate Chi is both STR & DEX, in part because now I can handwaive 1 recharging VV to keep a Skeptics Elixir up all the time for +3 Will saves (need to try out Serene Mutagen).
Aside from the WIS issue, Alchemist is genuinely a candidate for a INT/DEX/STR/CON build that leaves CHA & WIS at 0. It absolutely puts holes in your build, but being able to partially patch them via item buffs makes it a lot less painful IMO.
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I'll say a similar DEX recommend for Tox too, just that you'll need a Thrower's Bandolier loaded w/ a Returning rune to get that flexibility to make up for the small dmg drop.
Even if you don't get Quick Draw, being able to throw & re-throw w/ that Spear/etc via DEX until you land a poisoned hit helps a lot to save you from the need to move around. The option to just hard-Draw the next, prepoisoned, weapon and keep the runes is a pretty great perk in favor of DEX. At 1A, that hard-draw is still way better than trying to Q-Alch poison mid-combat.
I do think I generally don't value every last STR to damage as much as others, and I see the ability to re-throw at range via something like 4:DEX and only 2:STR as an easier recommend than loosing thrown accuracy via the reverse. Thrown has the neat perk that it's like an implicit finesse trait even at melee range, though don't forget you might trigger foe reactive strikes.
IMO, the elephant in the room for Tox is that they are still an Alchemist, and have the full (DEX only) bomb list. So leaving DEX low really hurts in that respect.
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then throw some Blindpepper at the floor
Could you stop bringing Blindpepper Bomb? It's an Uncommon item from an AP that is not allowed in PFS and that is obviously broken with the Remaster. I wouldn't allow it at my table and I don't expect many to allow it considering how the main drawback of the item, which is having a DC of 18, is now nullified as it's working with your own DC.
Saying that like it's an obvious and normal thing is also rather strange. As mediocre/poor as it may be, all alchemists just had a basic infinite bomb put into their kit with Quick Vials, and yet you seem to say that a buff to one specific item has shaken the Alchemist meta so much as to claim it has become their basic offense over bombs as a broad category. That's... a very extraordinary claim to make, IMO.
Again, you seem to miss my arguments all the time. The issue of Bombs is opportunity cost: If you use Bombs then you are less of a Chirurgeon/Mutagenist/Toxicologist. So people won't use Bombs not because they are bad or because Bestial Mutagen is now super cool but because they want to be a Chirurgeon/Mutagenist/Toxicologist and not a Bomber.
If you want to use Bombs as an Alchemist then you should really think of being a Bomber, because they don't mesh well with the other Research Fields.The Bestial Mutagen is now playable (+2 AC is a massive buff) but first and foremost it is compatible with every Research Field but Bomber. That's why it should become the basic offensive option for Alchemist. I expect from a basic option that it works with nearly everything, not with only a couple of builds.
I'll say the same DEX recommend for Tox too, just that you'll need a Thrower's Bandolier and a Returning rune to get that flexibility to make up for the small dmg drop.
You no more play ranged with a Tox. There's no more point in doing that as you no more have a massive quantity of poisons on your thrown weapons/arrows. And by playing melee you'll prioritize Strength ove Dexterity in general, even if I can see a Finesse 2-weapon build working for a Tox. But anyway, nothing that will use Bombs.
Death to Blindpepper!
Death to Blindpepper!
What's funny is that the common, PFS legal, Skunk is still a cut far above Blindpepper, 1A "Save or you'll suffer a lasting Slow"(and get sick if you do save) is super beyond the norm. Meanwhile, the main use-case for BlnDppr is specifically when foes are immune to Skunk, lol. Possible, but rare for the larger AoE to hit enough foes make it outright more appealing over Skunk, IMO.
Overall, I'm still rather surprised at how much "never bomb" attitude is being thrown around by experienced alchemists.
I don't think this kind of preventative play is shunned when discussed in other class contexts.
In the case of Chir, that is like a healer who refuses to use their other spell options beyond Heal. It's quite likely they will have chances for action-stealing spells to help prevent damage in the first place, like a wall spell, and really should consider casting things besides Heal even when it depletes the same resource.
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I can't say how abnormal it is for neither of my Chirs to have used a single Elixir of Life post-VVs, but I can say the math for using them has only gotten worse in the context of the remaster. Especially when I have Battle Medicine on my hip, the HP & benefits gained from an o Lf Elixir in exchange for the actions + resource cost is really quite poor.
Pulling this guestimation out of my ass: at 30HP avg for the L9 elixir, I think I'll charitably guess that while the L9 is in use, the elixir heals greater than 1 hits or 1/2 half dmg save successes, but that the elixir heals less than 2 hits/etc.
That gives some point of comparison as to what kind of difference non-healing activities need to meet the elixir.
Comparing to outcome of Skunk save --> Sickened 1: if you steal 1 action for a retch, the debuff -/+ 1 diff will have __ number of interactions to make a roll difference (the breakpoint for a +1 to make a diff 50% of the time is 6.5 chances; 7 & up it's more likely than not to change a roll).
That scenario is when it's most fuzzy if a Skunk will even out vs the healing elixir. An immediate retch when it's the foe's turn, leading to 1 less MAP attack, could put the value somewhat low (and you could always crit miss the bomb).
Any better result for the Alch, such as more than one debuff via AoE, failing the first retch, loosing a min 2 actions due to the slow + retch, etc, Skunk seems clearly superior than waiting to use an o Lf Elixir.
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Again, I don't care if one reads that and decides to hold the opposite opinion that I have, I just want the equation to be properly considered instead of being selected via knee-jerk or PC history bias.
The remaster hammered Chirurgeon hard with the item reduction, and without said elixirs getting buffed, that naturally leads to them getting used less. Meanwhile, options that were helped in the remaster, such as Quick Alchemy + Quick Bomber, naturally will be used more.
For any Chirurgeons (or other Alchs) struggling post-remaster, I do think there is a lot of value in checking through the bomb list for what may appeal to you, even when each one of those could have been an elixir. (and don't forget that you can buy/craft and leave some on your belt)
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Question: Can I be effective throwing bombs as a chirurgeon and dealing damage? How would this be built effectively, and of course, healing as a chirurgeon.I think the most helpful question for you to consider is how many of your turns do you want to spend attacking, and how many times do you guess you will attack each specific foe. If you really see yourself making an attack every turn, even vs a single boss, then you will need something else besides bombs for that, as you will run out of alchemy. (does not have to be a weapon, could be magic, etc).
For support/healers, you may be tempted to skip attacking every few rounds, and the lower this attack frequency, the less pressure you have to optimize your damage.
If you guesstimate that you'll want to attack each foe once or twice, (and if you take Quick Bomber), I think you can contribute damage quite fine with mostly bombs.
With the way bombs jump a huuuge gap from Lvl 3 --> 11, that Lvl 3 gold price means that you can afford to craft/buy some and keep 1 of each on your belt, in case you don't want to spend VVs in that moment.
The way that persistent damage works is that in exchange for it being delayed *after* the foe gets their actions (so if your attack makes the difference on a KO, then they get 1 more turn), the damage has a very high chance to repeat.
the DC 15 flat check is a 30% to end it.
These are the odds of passing that check at least once after X number of tries:
1: 30% ------- 2: 51% ------- 3: 65.7% -------- 4: 76%So in general, your persistent damage bombs have the caveats of not stacking (you gain no benefit of applying the same persistent damage twice) and needing time to deal the damage.
In exchange, you get:
Always doing normal 1x damage (0 fail)
Very safe bet that you deal 2x damage (1 fail)
and a coinflip of getting 3x damage (2 fails)The amount of weapon optimization it takes to exceed that, spending class Feats on Archeytping, etc, is pretty high....
Thanks for the help, I'm diving in as a group healer and I didn't like the cleric for personal reasons, not because of mechanics, I'll definitely take Medic and I've always wanted to be an Alchemist, I saw a lot of use in their elixirs, but really the class itself is giving me a headache, (thanks Paizo, and no, that's not a compliment lol!), I'll read your advice calmly, but thanks!
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What's funny is that the common, PFS legal, Skunk is still a cut far above Blindpepper, 1A "Save or you'll suffer a lasting Slow"(and get sick if you do save) is super beyond the norm.
Skunk is definitely above the norm, but it needs you to hit. When the Blindpepper Bomb can be used as your third action at full efficiency. So the Blindpepper Bomb is more problematic.
Also, the Skunk Bomb is hard to use if you're not a Bomber because of the splash. You'll rarely be able to use it after the first round, unless you are fine hitting your allies and risking them to be Sickened.
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I've found Quick Bomb to be absolutely vital on mobile Chircurgeon. The bombs aren't for topping the DPS charts most of the time, they are for strategically applying debuffs while continuing to prevent the most damage possible by continuing to push the fights towards their end where the enemies can no longer harm you.
As a Medic a lot of their turns look like: Apply Elixir, Use Doctor's Visitation to move and Battle Medicine, Quick Bomb. (Familiar can help make sure there's always an elixir in hand). Not every round looks like this, but it happens often enough.
Quick Bomb helps make sure they can use their MAPless attack wherever it'll do the most good every round, while being mobile around the battlefield, to provide support, prevent allies from being flanked etc.
They used to take about half their bombs through the Bomb Coagulant Alembic to make sure to have some good uses for when splashing party members wasn't advisable. Now they still have a few daily alchemical like that but it's a little more awkward.
Keeping the Quicksilver up, lets them be above the curve in terms martial of To-Hit at many levels, they deal with the fragilitiy with extensive healing resources and mobility. (I've spent plenty of turns using Doctor's Visitation on myself to move and heal) and not needing weapon runes saves a huge amount of money for utility items and back up consumables so that they never worry about running out, and are providing maximum alchemical support for non-combat encounters without worrying about running out in combat.
Quicksilver also increases initiative (stealth), thievery, reflex saves and move speed. Winning initiative is like getting a whole free turn. Quick Bomber saves actions, Doctor's Visitation Saves actions.
As long as your actions don't suck, action advantage is one of the most powerful options.
If you're planning on chucking bombs, even occasionally, Quick Bomber is amazing. Chucking bombs isn't inherently awful. Lets say you draw 2 a combat. Getting 2 bonus actions every combat is surely worth a level 1 class feat. Heck even if you did it just once a combat, it seems amazing.
How many classes would take a first level feat that said, once per combat be quickened, use this only to stride.
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I've found Quick Bomb to be absolutely vital on mobile Chircurgeon.
We were speaking of post remaster Chirurgeon, not preremaster one. The class has significantly changed, allowing much more build diversity for the Chirurgeon. While preremaster your build was among the very few that were making the Chirurgeon functional, post remaster there are much more choices and you don't have to jump through tons of hoops to make it work.
Also, we were speaking of characters who don't use Bombs are their main offensive option. If you use Bombs, then Quick Bomber is vital, no one challenges that.