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So, my understanding of these types of spells is that you fully turn into said creature. Shark Form? You're still you in there but you're a full on shark. T-Rex Form? You're a T-Rex. The rules also make clear that when you transform you can't speak (cause your animal physically can't), and you lose any of your strikes that animal lacks - you as a crocodile physically have no way to make and throw your Leshy seedpods. So far makes absolutely perfect sense both thematically and mechanically. You also can't modify your statistics for various balance reasons. Also makes sense. Now when you decide what creature to polymorph into you have a fair bit to base your decision on according to what creature would be best suited for a given encounter or task. Things that can fly for aerial battles, things that do slashing if the enemy is weak to that, etc.
But now we get to my rules issue. If you're in a shoreside encounter as a level 1 Nimble Elf Wildshape Druid you've got a great land speed of 35. Let's say your Elf wants to charge across a beach and strike someone at the shore, then go deeper into the water to fight something there. If you're just looking at speeds you might think your best Animal Form option would be Crocodile or Snake since those are animals that can traverse on land and also manage in the water since they've got land and swim speeds.
You'd be wrong. No, if you turn into a Crocodile your land speed will drop to 25ft which is 10 lower than you could be getting... if you turn into a Shark. Yes since Sharks don't have a listed land speed - and they're a shark(!) - you might be confused, but since nothing says you lose your speeds that aren't in the stat blocks like they say you do for your strikes, by RAW if you turn into a Shark (something with no legs!) you can run across the beach at 35ft while holding your breath, stab someone, and then hop in the water with your new 35ft swim speed. And Foundry's PF2E System, because it's RAW, implements it this way.
But the heck do these spells work this way? Surely this can't be RAI right? Cause it makes no sense thematically and also arguably hurts Form diversity mechanically.
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That's not RAW. RAW says you get a swim speed. There is no land speed listed for a shark, i.e. it doesn't have one.
Compare with the Crocodile or Crab, which list both a land and swim speed.
Right but as was pointed out to me when I reported it as a bug on Foundry, nothing in any of the rules seems to state that you lose your speeds if they aren't superseded. They only explicitly call out losing strikes. If I'm wrong please let me know so I can cite it to them.
PF2E on Foundry runs it like this, else I wouldn't have even thought of this as a potential reading either. I was hoping someone would either be able to point me to something that disproves it, explain why this is fine actually, or else call for an errata or something. Sorry, I should have made that more clear in the OP.
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PF2E on Foundry runs it like this, else I wouldn't have even thought of this as a potential reading either. I was hoping someone would either be able to point me to something that disproves it, explain why this is fine actually, or else call for an errata or something. Sorry, I should have made that more clear in the OP.
I'll give it my best:
Paizo, please errata the suite of spells to clarify that you only have access to the base movement speed mentioned and lose those you had tied to your base form. Giving the Polymorph trait an errata would probably work, too.Ain't no way it's intended for the Shark to be skeddadling up the shoreline faster than forms which actually have legs.
PF2E on Foundry runs it like this, else I wouldn't have even thought of this as a potential reading either. I was hoping someone would either be able to point me to something that disproves it, explain why this is fine actually, or else call for an errata or something. Sorry, I should have made that more clear in the OP.
As far I can tell, Foundry is correct here. Nothing in the Polymorph trait nor the specific spells takes away your base Speed, so if a battle form doesn't supersede it, you still have it.
However, there is also nothing saying your battle form speeds supersede your base land speed either. So if you're a 35 foot land speed Elf and you turn into a Crocodile you'd be able to keep your 35 foot land speed.
Clearly, the intent is for the form speeds to replace your own, and any Speed not listed on a form is a Speed you lose access to, but I will agree the RAW does not support that.
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This feels like a RavingDork post.
No it doesn't.
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I can’t find a single Creature that has “Land: 0” written for a speed. Which to me is confirmation that not listing a speed is absolutely to be taken as if it said 0, which means Sharks’ unwritten 0 speeds should overwrite your normal land speed - if the contention is that if it’s written it overwrites and otherwise lets you keep it.
Someone else I spoke to also mentioned you have the same issues with senses. It never explicitly says you lose Darkvision and Lifesense or what have you, it just says you gain Low-Light and Sense. The whole spell really just starts to leak holes everywhere if you insist this is how RAW works in my opinion.